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Old 08-19-2014, 05:17 PM   #661
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Dammit. Wrote a bit of a post and accidentally cleared it.

Prepare yourselves for text.

Quick history of the dyno saga:
--Monday 8/11: took to KO to tune, found that tune was password protected, did baseline run. Followed up with Andrew at TSE and he sent me a map for my car.
--Thursday 8/14: Kris at KO pressure tested my cooling system. Fail. I pulled the TSE rad out and tested it separately. Fail (likely do to it freezing, probably no fault of TSE or the product). Got stock rad from Mobius and dropped back off at KO to install Friday morning.
--Friday 8/15: Kris installed the stock rad and pressure tested the system. Good to go. Went there to tune Friday night but he was burned out, so we rescheduled for Saturday.
--Saturday 8/16 (my damned birthday, of all days): He was going to work on it during the day, but didn't get to it til I got there around 7. Spent til midnight just getting it to the point where changes in AEMTuner resulted in predictable changes in dyno results. Planned to finish Sunday.

Sunday morning went up to Kaisersoze's place to pull his Koyo, and I arrived at KO in Oregon City at around 10:30. He was just getting started tuning. Things were going well: 11 psi resulted in about 245 whp. Up to 16 psi, 279 whp.



19 psi yielded 299 whp.

Wanted 300. 21 psi yielded... going lean up top, shut down at around 5500 RPM when it hit 12.6. Still got 305 and 279. Damn. Wish I could have kept that going.



Added fuel -- no change. Added fuel again. No change.

Dropped boost back to 19 psi, still went lean around 5500 rpm. Dropped to 15 psi, same damn thing. finally down around 11 PSI we got a clean pull. I said screw it. I was late for my own birthday BBQ and obviously things weren't going well.

I talked with Bryan at Fab9 tuning at length yesterday afternoon to see if he had any advice. He said the stock ignition should be good to 350 ish, so that's probably not the issue. He said that I should get an adjustable FPR, like one of these: Fuel Delivery : FUELAB 525 In-Line Regulator

It also seems that my wideband is dead, as previously discussed. Bryan was strongly recommending the AEM failsafe and I really like the fact that it can be an AFR gauge AND a boost gauge, and he said it's easy to use. HOWEVER... Curly is now saying that the failsafe and MS don't get along well, and I may very well want to go the MS route in the near future, so now I'm not sure.

My current plan is to put in a new fuel filter and wideband gauge, and pull and inspect the pump and stuff in the tank. Josh said it could be that I blew the fuel pickup tube.

A couple questions I haven't been able to find definitive answers to:

1. MSM runs a returnless system, yada yada... I've got a walbro 255 and ID1000 injectors, as far as I know the rest of my fuel system is stock. Am I missing another piece to this puzzle to get 300+ whp?
2. What should I be doing about a FPR?
3. The money question: Should I really consider switching to MS? It seems the only AEM tuner around here is PSI. After this most recent experience, I'm very hesitant to think about paying someone ELSE to screw around with this EMS. Hearing so many success stories regarding rev-built MS3's, I'm super super tempted to just order up an MS3 basic.

Halp?
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Old 08-19-2014, 05:23 PM   #662
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You have an AEM why?
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Old 08-19-2014, 05:34 PM   #663
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Previous owner installed it.

I feel like most people consider the AEM an upgrade to the MS, but you might have issues selling for retail price of $1200, in order to cover the costs of a MS. But, you never know.

Since your intake pump as been replaced, I'd highly suggest checking out that pickup line. It's 2" long, and I've had one fail. Granted I think I used low pressure carb line, but there's always that chance. That or your pick up sock is clogged, your pump some how went bad, you were out of gas, your regulator failed, your fuel filter is clogged, or some other issue. Aren't cars fun?
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Old 08-19-2014, 05:36 PM   #664
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Stock ignition good to 350hp? o_O

Did i miss something? Or am i thinking of a different car?
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Old 08-19-2014, 05:36 PM   #665
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Because that's what was on the car and Martin told me I'd be stupid to ditch it for an MS.

And I believed him.



Kris at KO keeps telling me to get a Hydra. His favorite game while we were tuning was to tell me how he would solve ____ problem on a Hydra but that this AEM can't seem to do that. Dunno if it can't, or if he just didn't know how.

I have learned several important lessons here.
1. If you're going to have someone tune your car and it's the first time they've used that particular EMS, make sure it's free or close to it.
2. If they don't know the EMS, make sure they at least know the car really well. If they don't know the car make sure they know the EMS really well. If they know neither, well........... :CRX:
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Old 08-19-2014, 05:39 PM   #666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by concealer404 View Post
Stock ignition good to 350hp? o_O

Did i miss something? Or am i thinking of a different car?
Please share your thoughts. MSM stock cops and NGK iridiums gapped to .25.
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Old 08-19-2014, 05:39 PM   #667
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With my NB, I decided I wanted a legitimate fuel system that would maintain pressure consistently, thus rising 1:1 with boost as god intended. Here are my on the fuel system stuff:
  • Go find another NB and steal the main fuel line (like Curly's MSM partout)
  • Install this fuel line in the open clips on the fuel/brake line retainer clips under the car
  • Acquire Fuelab 5x5 regulator (I chose 535 and I'll be blocking a port)
  • Buy a metric asston of fittings & appropriate fuel hose
  • Replumb all the things!

After adding a return to the system, I basically followed what Hustler and Soviet did for fuel. I've yet to install it but that's my plan at any rate. I see no reason why it should be full of fail.

Questions:

Did your wideband and the dyno wideband agree?
Do you have a fuel pressure gauge somewhere in the system?
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Old 08-19-2014, 05:39 PM   #668
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbofan View Post
It has occurred to me that perhaps the TSE rad was destroyed along with the heater core in the subfreezing temps. Can't blame TSE for that. It's like it's been aerated. It didn't even leak under normal use really.

Tuner says we can just tune using the dyno reading. Don't need to worry about the wideband signal. He says that it could also be the scaling settings or something like that. He also likes to point out how much better he likes the hydra. He's got a point. I've been feeling pretty let down with the EMS4 and the bugginess of theAEM Tuner software but who knows, it could just be because he's not familiar with it.

Kris likes Hydra because he's been HEAVILY involved with getting it to work in general from the beginning. He's the Jeremy of the Toyota world, and in my opinion, the work he did on the Hydra for the 3sgte motors is what rang the death knell for the AEM PNP that used to exist for those cars.

In the name of "use what your tuner likes" vs. "How much does concealer404 ******* hate Hydra?" i'd be FOR you ditching your current **** for Hydra if Kris is going to be the one dealing with it.
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Old 08-19-2014, 05:41 PM   #669
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Quote:
Originally Posted by concealer404 View Post
Stock ignition good to 350hp? o_O

Did i miss something? Or am i thinking of a different car?
Most likely from Bryan's own testing. If he can get to 350 hp with out replacing anything, then they're officially capable of 350hp. YRMV.

Quote:
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Go find another NB and steal the main fuel line (like Curly's MSM partout)[
You mean the one I cut in half and took to the junk yard?
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Old 08-19-2014, 05:44 PM   #670
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbofan View Post
Because that's what was on the car and Martin told me I'd be stupid to ditch it for an MS.

And I believed him.



Kris at KO keeps telling me to get a Hydra. His favorite game while we were tuning was to tell me how he would solve ____ problem on a Hydra but that this AEM can't seem to do that. Dunno if it can't, or if he just didn't know how.

I have learned several important lessons here.
1. If you're going to have someone tune your car and it's the first time they've used that particular EMS, make sure it's free or close to it.
2. If they don't know the EMS, make sure they at least know the car really well. If they don't know the car make sure they know the EMS really well. If they know neither, well........... :CRX:
Kris isn't wrong with the Hydra vs. EMS4 thing. 2.7 and EMS4 aren't competitors. Hydra is much more capable in that iteration, and that's what he would sell you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbofan View Post
Please share your thoughts. MSM stock cops and NGK iridiums gapped to .25.
I'm just shocked to hear that it would hold up that far, honestly. Back when i was having our car tuned, we didn't run into any issues running the stock setup on NGK Coppers at .030, but all research at that point showed that i would have had problems if we were to really push it, and i was already researching the Trackspeed COP setup or moving straight to AEM Smart Coils like we have on the Escort.

Tuner said that some weird **** happens when the coils can't keep up anymore, too. I'm not saying that's the issue you have going on, but i know if i were messing with your car, i wouldn't be ******* with stock ignition.

And on our current car, if the stock ignition will do 350hp, i'd like to go back to that, because i'm chasing an ignition issue that i'm pretty sure is going to end up as a shitty wiring job in the COP harness and i'd like to just be done with it.

Just food for thought.
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Old 08-19-2014, 05:51 PM   #671
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Keep in mind your one reason for going Megasquirt over Hydra is basically me. Martin, Nail, and myself love ours, but I do all the tuning. Aaron at English Racing and Kris and KO aren't particularly familiar with MS, although with their knowledge of dyno tuning, together either one of them and I could probably get a rock solid tune with your car and a PNP MS. But, my knowledge is also 100% MS1s and 1.6 wiring. Miatas and MSs have changes a TINY bit since then, especially with your nifty MSM platform. Who knows what will happen, and if **** goes wrong and we get a problem with sequential ignition, sequential fueling, trigger wheel settings, crank sensor settings, cam sensor, IAC, TPS, coils, tach, etc, etc: I have no idea how to solve it.

Definitely an upside to the $x2 of Hyrda and Kris combo.
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Old 08-19-2014, 05:57 PM   #672
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Curly is onto it.

If you aren't going to tune it yourself, you shouldn't be the one choosing what to run if you want to get your money's worth.
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Old 08-19-2014, 06:01 PM   #673
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Thanks for the input gents.

I would like to learn how to tune it myself. I really would. I'm a DIYer at heart, no question.

I just wonder if it's realistic. I wonder if the best bet would be to just get a Hydra and have Kris install and tune it and just be... done.

I could chalk up the money I've spent in the last week to just getting issues sorted -- bad wideband, bad radiator, some sort of fueling issues...

Kris also said not to get an AEM wideband. He just DOESN'T like AEM. Not one bit.

Apparently I can get a PNP Hydra as low as $1400.

Hory shet that's a lot of money...
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Old 08-19-2014, 06:08 PM   #674
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LOL @ $1400 being a lot of money for an ECU.
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Old 08-19-2014, 06:10 PM   #675
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So buy a few less busted volkswagens this month.
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Old 08-19-2014, 06:16 PM   #676
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Ha. I know it's not a ton of money as ECU's go, but in my world, $1400 is a lot of money, and that's just for the ECU. If I get a Hydra, I'd still have to pay Kris to tune it again.

I just can't drop another $1k into this thing right now. Dammit.

G you've got it all wrong! Buying busted cars MAKES money
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Old 08-19-2014, 06:24 PM   #677
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By all means, use the ECU that your tuner knows. Period. Otherwise, we're talking total .

For most of us, that means buying MS and becoming our own tuner. Highly recommended. I can go out and retune my car anytime I please for gratis.
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Old 08-19-2014, 06:39 PM   #678
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The way I see it, this won't be the last car I own or tune. I want to learn how to tune myself so I can just rent dyno time and tune myself.

A question: Since I've already got the AEM in the car, what's to keep me from just learning to tune the AEM?
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Old 08-19-2014, 06:46 PM   #679
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Near zero support from us.
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Old 08-19-2014, 07:01 PM   #680
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Nothing I guess, just maybe not as much support from people here on how to use AEM to do so.

Learning how to tune on the MS3x was certainly a rough learning curve, but once you get over the initial steep curve it really isn't as daunting as it originally seemed.

Granted I still have a pretty rudimentary knowledge of what I am doing.

Just do whatever your checkbook and brain agrees with!
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