The Current Events, News, and Politics Thread
#862
(Not-so-ninja edit) New thread at https://www.miataturbo.net/current-events-news-politics-77/evolution-speciation-62661/
Last edited by blaen99; 01-07-2012 at 12:57 AM.
#866
However, if Paul does well enough, that is going to break the current paradigm of "You have to vote for one of the two Obama/Bushes/whatever" that the two parties put up.
If Paul does well enough, we'll be able to get more choice. This is a Good Thing in my eyes.
Plus, even if Paul isn't perfect, he's better than any of the other Republican candidates.
#871
If you want to adopt the "late trimester abortions" argument, fine. But that's a fallacy.
This is a chart of all abortions done in the US in 2004 by week of abortion.
#872
But just to confirm, your position is not that government doesn't have the right to legislate morality, but simply that you disagree with Ron Paul over the biology of in utero fetal development, correct?
IF Ron Paul were correct on the issue of fetal development (that is, if new biological/medical data clearly demonstrated that developing fetuses showed all the necessary and sufficient characteristics of human life), would you agree that we could no longer consider abortion to be something left up to personal choice, but instead must be banned in order to protect innocent life?
#873
In other words, it would be a smaller jump to argue that tubal ligation (Or "Tubes tied") is equivalent to killing babies if you adopt embryos-are-lives than it would be to try to understand some of the recent supreme court decisions.
But just to confirm, your position is not that government doesn't have the right to legislate morality, but simply that you disagree with Ron Paul over the biology of in utero fetal development, correct?
IF Ron Paul were correct on the issue of fetal development (that is, if new biological/medical data clearly demonstrated that developing fetuses showed all the critical marks of human life), would you agree that we could no longer consider abortion to be something left up to personal choice, but instead must be banned in order to protect innocent life?
IF Ron Paul were correct on the issue of fetal development (that is, if new biological/medical data clearly demonstrated that developing fetuses showed all the critical marks of human life), would you agree that we could no longer consider abortion to be something left up to personal choice, but instead must be banned in order to protect innocent life?
There's two arguments that I'm going to ask you to choose between, or both.
#1: Are you claiming that an embryo is a human life? (See: Chart evidencing the near-nonexistence of late trimester abortions)
#2: Once the embryo has developed to such an extent where it could be considered a human life, are you telling me that a mother should not have the choice to abort if it means she will die or similar circumstances occur?
#874
I haven't argued either position yet, actually, I'm simply trying to figure out on what points you actually disagree with Ron Paul, since you started this line with the idea that government shouldn't "legislate morality."
Sorry, your argument about tubal ligation makes no sense. The prevention of fertilization is not equivalent to the destruction of a fetus.
Moreover, I'm not sure why you're focusing on third-trimester abortions; the issue seems to be that Ron Paul believes that any fertilized egg is a human life that is worthy of protection. Arguing over how common third-trimester abortions are does not address RP's claim that all fetuses are human life.
Sorry, your argument about tubal ligation makes no sense. The prevention of fertilization is not equivalent to the destruction of a fetus.
Moreover, I'm not sure why you're focusing on third-trimester abortions; the issue seems to be that Ron Paul believes that any fertilized egg is a human life that is worthy of protection. Arguing over how common third-trimester abortions are does not address RP's claim that all fetuses are human life.
#875
I haven't argued either position yet, actually, I'm simply trying to figure out on what points you actually disagree with Ron Paul, since you started this line with the idea that government shouldn't "legislate morality."
Sorry, your argument about tubal ligation makes no sense. The prevention of fertilization is not equivalent to the destruction of a fetus.
Moreover, I'm not sure why you're focusing on third-trimester abortions; the issue seems to be that Ron Paul believes that any fertilized egg is a human life that is worthy of protection. Arguing over how common third-trimester abortions are does not address RP's claim that all fetuses are human life.
Sorry, your argument about tubal ligation makes no sense. The prevention of fertilization is not equivalent to the destruction of a fetus.
Moreover, I'm not sure why you're focusing on third-trimester abortions; the issue seems to be that Ron Paul believes that any fertilized egg is a human life that is worthy of protection. Arguing over how common third-trimester abortions are does not address RP's claim that all fetuses are human life.
If you argue for third trimester abortion, I have no arguments against it. Based on your previous post, the only objection I would have would be the addition of "Unless it would kill the mother, or similar medical emergencies". But this is targeting a nonexistent problem.
If you argue for late 2nd trimester abortion, we're in agreement, with the similar clause I gave above. But this is also targeting a nonexistent problem.
If you argue for early 2nd trimester, you sir are willfully ignoring the large amount of medical and scientific data on the development of the embryo, and even then you are only targeting what is a very minor part of abortions.
If you argue for 1st trimester, I have absolutely nothing to say, as I'm ------- dumbfounded. You, in essence, are arguing that a human embryo is human life. There's no brain, no nerve cells developed in the first trimester. It's just a chunk of cells. Nothing that Makes A Human Human is in the first trimester beyond the "potential" to become human - the same potential all embryos have. Which, by tubal ligation, you are similarly eliminating. My tubal ligation mention may seem a fallacy or a red herring, but it's not.
And that's where I am with RP. You are legislating choices with no scientific, medical, or even factual basis for reasoning primarily based on religion to take away what a woman can or cannot do with her body. This is, by definition, legislating morality.
#877
A fetus (pronounced /ˈfiːtəs/; also spelled foetus, fœtus, faetus, or fætus, see below) is a developing mammal or other viviparous vertebrate after the embryonic stage and before birth.
#879
IF Ron Paul were correct on the issue of fetal development (that is, if new biological/medical data clearly demonstrated that developing fetuses showed all the critical marks of human life), would you agree that we could no longer consider abortion to be something left up to personal choice, but instead must be banned in order to protect innocent life?
It's just a lump of cells. Hell, I read one article that said if you use a "potentially fertilized egg that has the potential to develop in a baby" as a metric for abortion, PMS is the leading cause of abortion by a landslide - I'm not joking. How do you think many of the so-called "abortion pills" work?
Prior to the 2nd trimester, there's nothing there that anyone would consider "life" using the criteria you proposed. And to argue that embryo's are human life has about as much intellectual integrity as me trying to argue that the chicken eggs that everyone here eats are a crime to eat because they are eating living chickens.
(Edit) To be absolutely clear, an embryo in the form I am discussing is a fertilized egg. An embryo is the final stage of the zygote untill it becomes a fetus.
#880
It's just a lump of cells. Hell, I read one article that said if you use a "potentially fertilized egg that has the potential to develop in a baby" as a metric for abortion, PMS is the leading cause of abortion by a landslide - I'm not joking. How do you think many of the so-called "abortion pills" work?
Prior to the 2nd trimester, there's nothing there that anyone would consider "life" using the criteria you proposed. And to argue that embryo's are human life has about as much intellectual integrity as me trying to argue that the chicken eggs that everyone here eats are a crime to eat because they are eating living chickens.
A more apt comparison would be you finding a developing chick in your omelet, and then claiming that it wasn't really a chicken because it didn't have feathers yet.