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Old 08-15-2012, 05:26 PM   #2721
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Originally Posted by mgeoffriau View Post
Well, Greg Mankiw will be interested to hear he's a "fascist" now.
I don’t know where Greg Mankiw falls into this But People who believe Corporations and wealthy investors should pay no tax at all while working people laborers etc should pay all the tax and even go further suppress the rights of labor as to limit rights to unionize and fight for fair pay and labor practices. I consider being fascist. Mankew in that post charry picked data only including progressive sorces of tax revenue again ignoring payroll tax sales tax and a slew of other taxes people pay.

I am not necessarily pro union or a left wing nut of some sort I just think so many in this country have moved so far right its freekin scary.

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Old 08-15-2012, 05:42 PM   #2722
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Mankew in that post charry picked data only including progressive sorces of tax revenue again ignoring payroll tax sales tax and a slew of other taxes people pay.
How do you know this? Point me to the data.



EDIT: For example, if you click through to the original article, you'll see this:

Quote:
The first column shows that the top 10 percent of households in the U.S. pays 45.1 percent of all income taxes (both personal income and payroll taxes combined) in the country.
What "slew of other taxes" are you referring to?
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Old 08-15-2012, 07:04 PM   #2723
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Originally Posted by mgeoffriau View Post
How do you know this? Point me to the data.



EDIT: For example, if you click through to the original article, you'll see this:



What "slew of other taxes" are you referring to?
"it includes income taxes and employee social security contributions, but not employer payroll taxes. It also doesn’t include sales taxes"
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Old 08-15-2012, 09:16 PM   #2724
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"it includes income taxes and employee social security contributions, but not employer payroll taxes. It also doesn’t include sales taxes"
What are you quoting?
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Old 08-16-2012, 02:49 AM   #2725
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Nice fascist propaganda you’re citing there that avoids telling the truth of whole picture.

A good number of our top 500 profitable corporations are paying negative tax and over the last several years corporate tax revenue has resulted in a record low 1.2% of GDP. I am not a fan of taxing corporations to death but I am for fairness in who pays for our government. While the corporations and the super rich “job creator” investors might have purchased and own our government they are not paying for its operational cost in an equitable manner. I am only seeing that trend getting worse with more of the current crop of republican Ideologues.

http://www.ctj.org/pdf/notax2012.pdf

Out of curiosity, who do you think owns all of those companies? Teachers unions, mutual funds, county pensions...you perhaps? If they're not profitable--or take their profits offshore--your mom doesn't get her dividend. Do you hate your mother?
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Old 08-16-2012, 03:37 AM   #2726
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Originally Posted by mgeoffriau View Post
What are you quoting?
The dudes blog directly below the chart. based on data presented earlier it ignores 5 to 6 % of the tax the middle income tax payer gets taken out of there compensation and only 1 to 3 percent at the top 5% and essentially nothing at the very top for the USA numbers. I doubt the other countries have the same distortion in their numbers based on varying tax codes there is no telling how the numbers are further skewed.

Plus if you reed what the guy is saying he is saying the US has an extremely unequal distribution of income from capital. And he concludes “If you want to reduce inequality, you need to increase the level of taxes collected and spend it more effectively.”

Heck even if your one of those Austrian economist the Libertarians like you can look at Von Misis 80-20 rule Pereto principal that applies to many things and he basically lays out that the natural stable income distribution should be that 20% of the people should get 80% of the wealth. We are way beyond that the top 20% control about 93% of the wealth. Looking more like a third world country.

Based on that capital distribution taxing income from capital at half the rate as earned income like we currently do now = incredibly stupid. Taxing income from capital at 0% per the current republican Ideology being pushed as the solution to our economic wows = certifiably insane. Just increasing the power of the financial oligarchy.
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Old 08-16-2012, 11:01 AM   #2727
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Originally Posted by bbundy View Post
The dudes blog directly below the chart.
Found the relevant section, thanks. Those comments are from the researcher that wrote that particular chapter of the report, apparently. Why didn't you also quote his next sentence?

Quote:
As others have pointed out this measure includes all direct taxes on individuals so it includes income taxes and employee social security contributions, but not employer payroll taxes. It also doesn’t include sales taxes, but these are much heavier in most other OECD countries, and not as progressive as direct taxes, so if you added indirect taxes in through some sort of modelling it is almost certain that the USA would still have the most progressive overall tax system.
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Old 08-16-2012, 01:49 PM   #2728
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Talk about Freeloaders
I haven’t figured out the numbers. I can’t even find the law that changed things. I think it was Newt Gegrich that pushed this change in the early 90’s. Might have been a very stupid democrat though, I’m not sure. Result is I suspect tax payers are on the hook for well over 50% of mega corporation CEO/executive pay in America. The whole thing pretty fascist in concept.

Taxpayers Subsidize CEO Pay, Report Says - Yahoo! News

Executive stock option compensation accounting is how the company I work for had a -135% effective tax rate in 2008. CEO’s made many millions of dollars costing the company effectively nothing but a small bit of stock dilution. The company expenses exercised stock option price for tax purposes far exceeding the actual cost of issuing them was to the company. The CEO/executives only has to pay long term capital gains rate on his compensation that he essentially gets from other American payers because he holds them a few years before cashing in.

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Old 08-16-2012, 08:30 PM   #2729
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Talk about Freeloaders
I haven’t figured out the numbers. I can’t even find the law that changed things. I think it was Newt Gegrich that pushed this change in the early 90’s. Might have been a very stupid democrat though, I’m not sure. Result is I suspect tax payers are on the hook for well over 50% of mega corporation CEO/executive pay in America. The whole thing pretty fascist in concept.

Taxpayers Subsidize CEO Pay, Report Says - Yahoo! News

Executive stock option compensation accounting is how the company I work for had a -135% effective tax rate in 2008. CEO’s made many millions of dollars costing the company effectively nothing but a small bit of stock dilution. The company expenses exercised stock option price for tax purposes far exceeding the actual cost of issuing them was to the company. The CEO/executives only has to pay long term capital gains rate on his compensation that he essentially gets from other American payers because he holds them a few years before cashing in.

Bob
Not really fond of executive pay either, but don't feel like having government control that too. One thing--Wall Street used to be run by guys in green visors who were directly responsible for their investments. Nowadays you lose a few billion of investor money, you're fired. Back then if you did it, you're bankrupt.

This is what happens when you separate reward from risk, kinda like the government.

Nice numbers you're putting out on your car, btw.
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Old 08-16-2012, 11:08 PM   #2730
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Old 08-17-2012, 02:08 AM   #2731
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I would like to make fun of this chart, but there's really nothing funny about it.
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Old 08-17-2012, 02:38 AM   #2732
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Out of curiosity, who do you think owns all of those companies? Teachers unions, mutual funds, county pensions...you perhaps? If they're not profitable--or take their profits offshore--your mom doesn't get her dividend. Do you hate your mother?
I own about a half million dollars worth of one of those companies and every time the American tax payers fund another CEO/executive stock option payment my stock gets diluted and it matters not how much of a tax break the company or executive get because if employees cost less in India partly because we like to soak the middle class with taxes here in the USA that is where they will send their money for the people that generate there fortune for them. As a stock holder my vote is pretty much worthless because the board and directors largely the same people own controlling shares.

Bob
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Old 08-17-2012, 02:48 AM   #2733
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I would like to make fun of this chart, but there's really nothing funny about it.
You know in times past a family of 4 could live at less than a wretched existence on a single average income. Tax rates were considerably more progressive. Union membership was a lot higher as well.

Last edited by bbundy; 08-17-2012 at 03:01 AM.
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Old 08-17-2012, 12:01 PM   #2734
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Old 08-17-2012, 04:04 PM   #2735
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Tea Party-Backed Repeal Of The 17th Amendment Gets Republicans Into Trouble | TPMDC

I have to admit, the Republicans wanting to repeal the 17th Amendment is very entertaining.
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Old 08-17-2012, 06:02 PM   #2736
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Out of curiosity, who do you think owns all of those companies? Teachers unions, mutual funds, county pensions...you perhaps? If they're not profitable--or take their profits offshore--your mom doesn't get her dividend. Do you hate your mother?
The more I think about your response the more I think about how ingeniously prophetic the movie Idiocracy was.

In it one of the side stories after the smartest man in the world (because he was part of a time capsule experiment that allowed him to escape the De-evolution of mankind) becomes president. The country is on the brink of mass famine because the giant sports drink maker has lobbied congress to where the product Brondo has completely replaced water as a beverage and everything else except being used to flush down the toilet. Brondo is a hugely successful company and everybody owns stock and has much of their retirement invested in it very happy with their returns on investment. Turns out watering food crops with Brondo doesn’t work too well. After the smartest man left in the world tells them to water the crops with water instead of Brondo the company stock tanks and everybody wants his head. He is captured to be sent to rehabilitation which is kind of like roman gladiator type stuff entails things like being chased around by a giant “Dildozer”, quite entertaining.

In real life as well catering government around the interest of giant corporations, coddling the rich, and allowing them to control congress by lobbying and bribery is a really bad Idea even if you’re only narrowly mindedly thinking about the interest of grandmas investment portfolio.

Bob
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Old 08-18-2012, 01:26 AM   #2737
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Tea Party-Backed Repeal Of The 17th Amendment Gets Republicans Into Trouble | TPMDC

I have to admit, the Republicans wanting to repeal the 17th Amendment is very entertaining.
The argument is that repealing the 17th amendment will make the state representatives more responsive to their constituents.

At this time, I consider my local town council to be unresponsive, my state representatives to be nearly uncommunicative, and my local teacher's union to be downright hostile, and many are probably in my party.

I'm for the party of smaller government.
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Old 08-18-2012, 01:35 AM   #2738
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The more I think about your response the more I think about how ingeniously prophetic the movie Idiocracy was.

In it one of the side stories after the smartest man in the world (because he was part of a time capsule experiment that allowed him to escape the De-evolution of mankind) becomes president. The country is on the brink of mass famine because the giant sports drink maker has lobbied congress to where the product Brondo has completely replaced water as a beverage and everything else except being used to flush down the toilet. Brondo is a hugely successful company and everybody owns stock and has much of their retirement invested in it very happy with their returns on investment. Turns out watering food crops with Brondo doesn’t work too well. After the smartest man left in the world tells them to water the crops with water instead of Brondo the company stock tanks and everybody wants his head. He is captured to be sent to rehabilitation which is kind of like roman gladiator type stuff entails things like being chased around by a giant “Dildozer”, quite entertaining.

In real life as well catering government around the interest of giant corporations, coddling the rich, and allowing them to control congress by lobbying and bribery is a really bad Idea even if you’re only narrowly mindedly thinking about the interest of grandmas investment portfolio.

Bob
Don't misunderstand, Bob. I trust markets more than governments, and individuals more than both. We clearly don't see eye to eye, but I'd rather you live your life unencumbered by my ideas (and vice versa) than serve down dictat.

Those fancy big corporations are too busy making everyone in Washington rich. I'm 100% for closing loopholes, but also 100% for flattening the tax rates. Equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome. As you know, our tax rates are the most progressive in the world.
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Old 08-18-2012, 01:47 AM   #2739
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The Mismeasure of Inequality | Hoover Institution

Wonk out...
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Old 08-19-2012, 03:29 AM   #2740
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I believe Hoover had a few key policies which helped kick off the great depression and I believe that way of thinking has returned. I am sure we will disagree on several of the key things.

Bob
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