miataturbo.net-like debauchery thread (about the ND or something) - Page 146 - Miata Turbo Forum -Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 10-04-2016, 06:10 PM   #2901
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This is REALLY making me want an ND. Maybe I will wait until the dead of winter and see what the Mazda dealership will do to move a White Club model.
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Old 10-04-2016, 08:38 PM   #2902
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Old 10-05-2016, 10:07 AM   #2903
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Emilio, have you started working on an oil cooler setup yet? I know you mentioned earlier in the thread the car suffers from very high oil temps under track use.

Also, have you guys checked the injector duty cycle to see if an E85 tune is possible without swapping to larger injectors/fuel pump?

Last edited by z31maniac; 10-05-2016 at 11:32 AM.
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Old 10-05-2016, 02:19 PM   #2904
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Originally Posted by z31maniac View Post
Emilio, have you started working on an oil cooler setup yet? I know you mentioned earlier in the thread the car suffers from very high oil temps under track use.

Also, have you guys checked the injector duty cycle to see if an E85 tune is possible without swapping to larger injectors/fuel pump?
No and no. With the inherent system capacity of DI, I would be very surprised if it couldn't handle E85 however. We're talking over 20k psi.

Knowing how det limited the current car is on CA91, I'd expect a near F/I level jump in power on E85. The initial experimental tune we did with E85 last year proved to be outside our tuners scope at the time. Since then more progress has been made. The usage profile of our project car precludes
E85, its just not practical nor needed. For autocrossers though, it's going to be a deal breaker. The highest placed STR ND at Solo nats a few weeks was pretty close to the S2K CR's. Another 15~20 whp and the OS Giken we're working on might bridge the gap.

Hopefully TSE will find time to do an oil cooler. If not, I'm sure FM is working on one although they may only use -8 like their NA/NB kit. Really needs to be -10.

Interesting factoid. The SAG has variable oil pressure. Dual VVT require huge oil volume at higher rpms. It's near impossible to build a pump that will flow enough to meet those peak requirements without being wastefully over supplying at low rpm/light load. The K series erred on the low volume side of the scale and is why they cavitate so quickly when revved past OEM redline when iVtec. With the SAG at light load, low rpm, the OP is scary low. Crack the throttle open and it instantly shoots up even before revs are up. Solenoid on pressure relief valve controlled by ECU. OP on demand. This is done to reduce parasitic losses. Cool.
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Old 10-05-2016, 02:53 PM   #2905
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We have the Mishimoto oil cooler on our car, pulled the trigger on that the moment we started looking at oil temperatures. Mishimoto's products are hit or miss - my impression is they make some strange decisions in the R&D phase with some products, whereas with other products they get things right. In the end, that's why we carry only select products from them. In the case of the ND oil cooler, it's a good solid kit. Only thing we changed is we flipped the heat exchanger upside down so the in/out are in the bottom since we prefer that the oil drain from the cooler for oil changes. Decent heat exchanger with good placement, -10AN throughout, quality sandwich plate (we only carry the thermostatic version), and they have an excellent warranty. Working great, does everything we need.
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Old 10-05-2016, 03:16 PM   #2906
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Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
No and no. With the inherent system capacity of DI, I would be very surprised if it couldn't handle E85 however. We're talking over 20k psi.

Knowing how det limited the current car is on CA91, I'd expect a near F/I level jump in power on E85. The initial experimental tune we did with E85 last year proved to be outside our tuners scope at the time. Since then more progress has been made. The usage profile of our project car precludes
E85, its just not practical nor needed. For autocrossers though, it's going to be a deal breaker. The highest placed STR ND at Solo nats a few weeks was pretty close to the S2K CR's. Another 15~20 whp and the OS Giken we're working on might bridge the gap.

Hopefully TSE will find time to do an oil cooler. If not, I'm sure FM is working on one although they may only use -8 like their NA/NB kit. Really needs to be -10.

Interesting factoid. The SAG has variable oil pressure. Dual VVT require huge oil volume at higher rpms. It's near impossible to build a pump that will flow enough to meet those peak requirements without being wastefully over supplying at low rpm/light load. The K series erred on the low volume side of the scale and is why they cavitate so quickly when revved past OEM redline when iVtec. With the SAG at light load, low rpm, the OP is scary low. Crack the throttle open and it instantly shoots up even before revs are up. Solenoid on pressure relief valve controlled by ECU. OP on demand. This is done to reduce parasitic losses. Cool.
Ok thanks for the info. I did check the OVT site and they claim to have an E85 tune, but with the "interesting" and results from their tune and the GWR header that can't be 3rd party verified........It makes me leary.

That is some cool tech!


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Originally Posted by ThePass View Post
We have the Mishimoto oil cooler on our car, pulled the trigger on that the moment we started looking at oil temperatures. Mishimoto's products are hit or miss - my impression is they make some strange decisions in the R&D phase with some products, whereas with other products they get things right. In the end, that's why we carry only select products from them. In the case of the ND oil cooler, it's a good solid kit. Only thing we changed is we flipped the heat exchanger upside down so the in/out are in the bottom since we prefer that the oil drain from the cooler for oil changes. Decent heat exchanger with good placement, -10AN throughout, quality sandwich plate (we only carry the thermostatic version), and they have an excellent warranty. Working great, does everything we need.
From what I've seen in the BMW and BRZ/FR-S community, they typically copy other companies designs with inferior quality materials. I'd have a REALLY difficult time installing any of their parts on my personal car.
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Old 10-05-2016, 03:36 PM   #2907
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Originally Posted by z31maniac View Post
Ok thanks for the info. I did check the OVT site and they claim to have an E85 tune, but with the "interesting" and results from their tune and the GWR header that can't be 3rd party verified........It makes me leary.

That is some cool tech!
We have not done any E85 testing/development yet.
I agree with Emilio, I'd be very surprised if the DI system couldn't handle E85.

Quote:
Originally Posted by z31maniac View Post
From what I've seen in the BMW and BRZ/FR-S community, they typically copy other companies designs with inferior quality materials. I'd have a REALLY difficult time installing any of their parts on my personal car.
I can't speak to all their products, there are some I certainly don't like, but the ND kit is good throughout and works well. I'd do a ground-up kit for the ND if this didn't already exist, but after almost a year on this kit I haven't seen any reason to take it off and invest our own time/energy/resources on doing it over.

Last edited by ThePass; 10-05-2016 at 03:46 PM.
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Old 10-05-2016, 03:57 PM   #2908
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Awesome thanks for the additional. E85 isn't a huge deal, but it's pretty readily available here so in the summer months it would be nice to take advantage of the extra power.


Emilio, are you guys still using Shiv and the OFT? I know he has an E85 tune for the BRZ.

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Old 10-05-2016, 04:35 PM   #2909
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Originally Posted by z31maniac View Post
Awesome thanks for the additional. E85 isn't a huge deal, but it's pretty readily available here so in the summer months it would be nice to take advantage of the extra power.


Emilio, are you guys still using Shiv and the OFT? I know he has an E85 tune for the BRZ.
Shiv couldn't access our ECU because it had it's OEM map replaced by an EcuTek map. Matt (OV Tuned) couldn't match what I already had so we stuck with the EcuTek map I built. My map is crude but the cars runs great. OFH, stock midpipe and muffler plus my tune on CA91. Haven't dynoed it since my last bit of street tuning so I don't know what its making.

Key point for any reflash, the SAG is highly sensitive to actual octane and that fuels specific det resistance. You have to tune for your gas. Personally, I think a 1 point lower compression set of pistons combined with full thermal coated chambers could allow for much higher pump gas output.
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Old 10-05-2016, 04:36 PM   #2910
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Only thing we changed is we flipped the heat exchanger upside down so the in/out are in the bottom since we prefer that the oil drain from the cooler for oil changes.
FYI, running the cooler upside down prevents it from self-bleeding. You need to manually bleed the air from the cooler if you aren't running the fittings at the top/side.
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Old 10-05-2016, 05:14 PM   #2911
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FYI, running the cooler upside down prevents it from self-bleeding. You need to manually bleed the air from the cooler if you aren't running the fittings at the top/side.
That's an interesting statement to make without presenting any evidence.
Yes you could certainly design a hex that might trap air, but it would have to be pretty tall (assuming in/out is on the vertical) in an oil application.
Something that's closer to a square is more unlikely to capture air than something that's a tall rectangle.
It comes down to the resistance of the lattice versus the resistance of feed path.
Once upon a time back in the lab I worked in during my college days we actually did this experiment for a compressor we rebuilt.
Turns out the way the hex performed was highly tied to its design.

Since I don't have any data on the mishimoto unit, I'm not going to make any claims
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Old 10-05-2016, 05:14 PM   #2912
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FYI, running the cooler upside down prevents it from self-bleeding. You need to manually bleed the air from the cooler if you aren't running the fittings at the top/side.
^Yep. You can end up with the top few rows of the cooler being a big air bubble and non-functional. I've felt it on an auto trans cooler mounted that way. The bottom rows are hot and the top ones are much cooler.
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Old 10-05-2016, 05:47 PM   #2913
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Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
Shiv couldn't access our ECU because it had it's OEM map replaced by an EcuTek map. Matt (OV Tuned) couldn't match what I already had so we stuck with the EcuTek map I built. My map is crude but the cars runs great. OFH, stock midpipe and muffler plus my tune on CA91. Haven't dynoed it since my last bit of street tuning so I don't know what its making.

Key point for any reflash, the SAG is highly sensitive to actual octane and that fuels specific det resistance. You have to tune for your gas. Personally, I think a 1 point lower compression set of pistons combined with full thermal coated chambers could allow for much higher pump gas output.
Gotcha. I knew that was an issue since they write to the ROMs differently.

Thanks again for all the info.
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Old 10-05-2016, 05:58 PM   #2914
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I know the reasons on paper that are often cited to argue against mounting it that way. After speaking with engineers at more than one heat exchanger manufacturer several years ago (all of which said it wouldn't be a problem) I said to hell with it, one way to find out and mounted the oil cooler on my turbo car this way. Verified lack of air pockets over a year or so after each drain/fill by checking the vertical temperature spread across the heat exchanger. My direct experience backed up the engineer's claims to a point that I've been confident mounting oil coolers that way since then.

Disclaimer: Don't just take my word for it, always check for proper operation on a new install.
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Old 10-05-2016, 08:08 PM   #2915
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Same experience as ThePass. Verified with a laser pyrometer after track sessions. Oil cooler temperature is even top to bottom and hotter than radiator temperature. It's full.
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Old 10-05-2016, 08:11 PM   #2916
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wouldn't an aluminum heat exchanger spread heat around very well, even if not all of it was full of oil?

Probably isn't a huge issue, especially if you have more cooler than you need anyways.
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Old 10-05-2016, 08:16 PM   #2917
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wouldn't an aluminum heat exchanger spread heat around very well, even if not all of it was full of oil?
Based upon Sixshooter's direct experience, I would say no. Even if it came close, I doubt it would be close enough to get a match with a pyrometer. After all, that same heat exchanger is in contact with cooling air too.
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Old 10-06-2016, 09:28 AM   #2918
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Based upon Sixshooter's direct experience, I would say no. Even if it came close, I doubt it would be close enough to get a match with a pyrometer. After all, that same heat exchanger is in contact with cooling air too.
You measured while driving?
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Old 10-06-2016, 09:38 AM   #2919
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Received an email back from OVT (Orange Virus Tuning) regarding E85 and fuel system head room for the ND.

"There is plenty of head-room in the stock fuel system for Ethanol. We are even running E85 + 7psi of boost on the stock fuel system, so N/A + E85 is no problem at all.

Ethanol does make a huge difference on this engine, and ethanol + Goodwins Header makes the ND seriously quick."



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Old 10-06-2016, 11:06 AM   #2920
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You measured while driving?
Uh, no . . . . I don't take tire temps while driving either, but that doesn't make them invalid for adjusting pressures.

Look, it's not mysterious. Transmission fluid has low viscosity and low volume. Engine oil has high viscosity (especially on startup) and high volume. Engine oil coolers fill up and self-purge. All the oil cooler manufacturers state this in their documentation and recommend mounting in any direction. The few of us that have mounted with inlet/outlet on the bottom have not had issues.

Last edited by hornetball; 10-06-2016 at 02:12 PM.
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