Mobius Rotrex installation thread
01-14-2010, 01:14 AM
#1
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Mobius Rotrex installation thread
Boost will soon be mine. I am 80% finished with my installation of the Kraftwerks stage 1 kit.
Installation has proceeded smoothly according to the instructions, with only one exception. I'm having to reroute my intake a bit to clear the EDFC servo motor on driver's side front shock.
Currently I am awaiting return of my fuel injectors from cleaning and flowtesting (stock 265cc injectors) and then I'm only about 2-3 hours away from startup.
If anyone has any questions, or wants pictures of any aspect of a 2001 VVT Rotrex installation, fire away.
Picture of default intake routing & why I have to reroute the intake. With things as they are in this photo the hood will close but that 90deg bend gets squashed between hood and shock motor. Abrasion failure risk for the tubing and side torque loading on the motor is, well, bad. Fine for starting & testing around the neighborhood but not viable for a permanent solution.
I will be using the supplied supercard.
Future plans:
when the stage 2 intercooled kit is finished, I'll move up to that. That will be enough for this motor (180-200 HP or so) until it needs a refresh. When it does, I'll build it for 300 and run it at 250ish.
Installation has proceeded smoothly according to the instructions, with only one exception. I'm having to reroute my intake a bit to clear the EDFC servo motor on driver's side front shock.
Currently I am awaiting return of my fuel injectors from cleaning and flowtesting (stock 265cc injectors) and then I'm only about 2-3 hours away from startup.
If anyone has any questions, or wants pictures of any aspect of a 2001 VVT Rotrex installation, fire away.
Picture of default intake routing & why I have to reroute the intake. With things as they are in this photo the hood will close but that 90deg bend gets squashed between hood and shock motor. Abrasion failure risk for the tubing and side torque loading on the motor is, well, bad. Fine for starting & testing around the neighborhood but not viable for a permanent solution.
I will be using the supplied supercard.
Future plans:
when the stage 2 intercooled kit is finished, I'll move up to that. That will be enough for this motor (180-200 HP or so) until it needs a refresh. When it does, I'll build it for 300 and run it at 250ish.
Last edited by Mobius; 01-14-2010 at 01:19 AM. Reason: added future plans
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01-14-2010, 02:13 AM
#3
great to hear !!
I love Kraftwerks Rotrex. I am particular interested in VVT with Rotrex. keep us updated.
I recommend you do a DIY intercooler. it really isn't that difficult.
they might be pricey initially, but if you do track it, they are cheaper
I love Kraftwerks Rotrex. I am particular interested in VVT with Rotrex. keep us updated.
I recommend you do a DIY intercooler. it really isn't that difficult.
they might be pricey initially, but if you do track it, they are cheaper
Last edited by bellwilliam; 01-14-2010 at 02:38 AM.
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01-19-2010, 02:50 AM
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Update ...
The intake hose reroute turned out to be simple once I stopped trying to keep the shock tower brace. A couple of 45 degree elbows and putting the MAF in the middle of the bend worked well.
I am going to fab a little L bracket to attach the MAF to the shock tower nut just beneath it, but that can wait. This is fine for daily driving temporarily.
Car has been started and idled up to temp.
Getting my injectors cleaned turned out to be a Good Idea, since #4 was down 4.3% in static flow, and had a "Fair" spray pattern. After cleaning all injectors were within 1% with "Good" spray patterns.
Hopefully tomorrow I'll have it off the jackstands and on the road. Putting the bumper cover back on will take a while solo.
I am going to fab a little L bracket to attach the MAF to the shock tower nut just beneath it, but that can wait. This is fine for daily driving temporarily.
Car has been started and idled up to temp.
Getting my injectors cleaned turned out to be a Good Idea, since #4 was down 4.3% in static flow, and had a "Fair" spray pattern. After cleaning all injectors were within 1% with "Good" spray patterns.
Hopefully tomorrow I'll have it off the jackstands and on the road. Putting the bumper cover back on will take a while solo.
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01-19-2010, 06:02 PM
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Drove the car today, 30 miles so far. Staying out of the throttle and under 3k RPM until the supercharger breaks in, 60 miles recommended.
There is a noticeable sound at idle. Not loud or obnoxious, but the car obviously sounds different. It goes away or blends in with any throttle. My 4 year old asked me why the car sounded different. Inside the cabin at freeway speeds I didn't notice any difference.
There is a noticeable sound at idle. Not loud or obnoxious, but the car obviously sounds different. It goes away or blends in with any throttle. My 4 year old asked me why the car sounded different. Inside the cabin at freeway speeds I didn't notice any difference.
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01-19-2010, 08:58 PM
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When the upgrade's out, assuming it keeps the stock injectors.
Fabbing up a DIY intercooler would be a fun project. I don't have that kind of time though. Worth it to me to pay for something that will have the pieces and fit and that I can schedule time to install.
As a point of reference, my car's been in the garage since Dec 14th. In that time I changed the timing belt/pulleys etc, removed my Thompson's Oil Filter Relocation Kit, connected my oil gauges to something else, repaired my Aux In Ipod mod, and installed the SC.
There were some delays, mainly waiting on my fuel injectors. But I can't just plow through stuff, I have to whittle away at it a couple hours here, 3 hours there.
I still have the coolant reroute to install. Debating on whether I want to replace my clutch again since this one shudders too (but at least it's a lot stronger than stock). If I do I'll do the coolant reroute then since I'll have much better access to the back of the head.
Fabbing up a DIY intercooler would be a fun project. I don't have that kind of time though. Worth it to me to pay for something that will have the pieces and fit and that I can schedule time to install.
As a point of reference, my car's been in the garage since Dec 14th. In that time I changed the timing belt/pulleys etc, removed my Thompson's Oil Filter Relocation Kit, connected my oil gauges to something else, repaired my Aux In Ipod mod, and installed the SC.
There were some delays, mainly waiting on my fuel injectors. But I can't just plow through stuff, I have to whittle away at it a couple hours here, 3 hours there.
I still have the coolant reroute to install. Debating on whether I want to replace my clutch again since this one shudders too (but at least it's a lot stronger than stock). If I do I'll do the coolant reroute then since I'll have much better access to the back of the head.
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10-22-2011, 12:48 AM
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Been awhile since there's been any updates. Upgrades are in the works so there will be more progress over the winter. With the implosion of Kraftwerks, I have gotten into gear with moving forward on my own. Goal for these upgrades is roughly 200 whp and appropriate heat management for track days. 200whp should be around 8-9 psi.
I have about 7k miles on the supercharger now. No issues to report; the car is a blast to drive. I did determine the provided Supercard needs minimum 92 octane Real Gas. 92 octane E10 will give slight pinging at WOT above 5500 or so. I have found 92 Real Gas providers in my area and life's all good on that front. Mileage improved as well.
First step: Xede + 550cc injectors (ordered and on the way). I've looked long and hard at my engine management options, and this will do what I need without affecting my OBDII status. I would have liked to have gone MS3 or the new Adaptronic 440, but for this car I need to keep my stock ECU (for oregon emissions), and I didn't want to have to explain to my wife at the next emissions check why I needed to do a day's work in the garage before and after.
Next step is intercooler & radiator. I have been dithering on the final choice of parts for these.
Radiator: Either TrackSpeed's or FM's crossflow unit. Both are nice, both have advantages. One consideration is I currently have a shroud and 2 hi-flow Spal fans that I could bolt up to the FM unit.
Intercooler: My two options that I've boiled down to are a) TDR intercooler setup (over the radiator piping) or use a traditonally-routed FMIC (probably FM's 15") with the charge piping following the MSM path through the hole behind the driver's headlight. Given the Rotrex outlet's location and orientation, running the charge piping down and through the fenderwell isn't really an option. It would have to come forward around the front of the engine, and would cause me to need to move the PS and AC hardlines currently living in that space.
If I go with a TDR setup, my piping is nice and short, nothing looks kludged when I open the hood, I can continue to use that hole behind the driver's headlight as my cold-air intake, and I get to use TDR's pre-fabbed ducting pieces to seal all the heat exchangers together. However, my radiator choices may be constrained by the TDR installation.
If I go with the FM intercooler and the MSM routing, my radiator choices are still unaffected, and it will look reasonably non-kludged when I open the hood, but I lose the cold-air-intake advantages of that hole behind the headlight. I think that compared with a turbo installation, the temperature delta increase in my charge piping that I would see from pulling air from under the hood instead of through that hole are less than the delta seen on a turbo installation from the air having to pass through a compressor housing sitting on the exhaust manifold. In other words I think that 8psi coming out of the rotrex using under-hood air will be a lower temp than 8psi coming out of a turbo using ambient intake air. So losing that shouldn't be a big deal. This option appears to be roughly three hundred dollars cheaper.
Next step part duh: restrictor upgrades. I have found a company in Denmark that sells BMW and Audi rotrex kits, and that will machine some variously sized restrictors for me. When I find out what psi those restrictors let me run at I'll post further information. I let them know there were numerous US based customers that had no upgrade path at the moment and would be interested in restrictors as well.
I will get the car dyno'ed as is, if I get a chance, to establish a baseline.
Edit: clutch has been replaced since last update; now running the FM stage 1 clutch. I like it, drives well, engages smoothly, pedal effort doesn't seem higher than stock. No shuddering.
I have about 7k miles on the supercharger now. No issues to report; the car is a blast to drive. I did determine the provided Supercard needs minimum 92 octane Real Gas. 92 octane E10 will give slight pinging at WOT above 5500 or so. I have found 92 Real Gas providers in my area and life's all good on that front. Mileage improved as well.
First step: Xede + 550cc injectors (ordered and on the way). I've looked long and hard at my engine management options, and this will do what I need without affecting my OBDII status. I would have liked to have gone MS3 or the new Adaptronic 440, but for this car I need to keep my stock ECU (for oregon emissions), and I didn't want to have to explain to my wife at the next emissions check why I needed to do a day's work in the garage before and after.
Next step is intercooler & radiator. I have been dithering on the final choice of parts for these.
Radiator: Either TrackSpeed's or FM's crossflow unit. Both are nice, both have advantages. One consideration is I currently have a shroud and 2 hi-flow Spal fans that I could bolt up to the FM unit.
Intercooler: My two options that I've boiled down to are a) TDR intercooler setup (over the radiator piping) or use a traditonally-routed FMIC (probably FM's 15") with the charge piping following the MSM path through the hole behind the driver's headlight. Given the Rotrex outlet's location and orientation, running the charge piping down and through the fenderwell isn't really an option. It would have to come forward around the front of the engine, and would cause me to need to move the PS and AC hardlines currently living in that space.
If I go with a TDR setup, my piping is nice and short, nothing looks kludged when I open the hood, I can continue to use that hole behind the driver's headlight as my cold-air intake, and I get to use TDR's pre-fabbed ducting pieces to seal all the heat exchangers together. However, my radiator choices may be constrained by the TDR installation.
If I go with the FM intercooler and the MSM routing, my radiator choices are still unaffected, and it will look reasonably non-kludged when I open the hood, but I lose the cold-air-intake advantages of that hole behind the headlight. I think that compared with a turbo installation, the temperature delta increase in my charge piping that I would see from pulling air from under the hood instead of through that hole are less than the delta seen on a turbo installation from the air having to pass through a compressor housing sitting on the exhaust manifold. In other words I think that 8psi coming out of the rotrex using under-hood air will be a lower temp than 8psi coming out of a turbo using ambient intake air. So losing that shouldn't be a big deal. This option appears to be roughly three hundred dollars cheaper.
Next step part duh: restrictor upgrades. I have found a company in Denmark that sells BMW and Audi rotrex kits, and that will machine some variously sized restrictors for me. When I find out what psi those restrictors let me run at I'll post further information. I let them know there were numerous US based customers that had no upgrade path at the moment and would be interested in restrictors as well.
I will get the car dyno'ed as is, if I get a chance, to establish a baseline.
Edit: clutch has been replaced since last update; now running the FM stage 1 clutch. I like it, drives well, engages smoothly, pedal effort doesn't seem higher than stock. No shuddering.
Last edited by Mobius; 10-22-2011 at 12:58 AM.
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12-18-2011, 01:28 PM
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I've seen a few posts of people referring to "implosion" of Kraftwerks. Could someone elaborate?
I am extremely close to purchasing a kit for mine and these posts make me bit nervous.
I am not looking for huge HP numbers, just good reliable track setup. I would be more than happy with about 165 to 170 HP. The only weighs a bit over 1900 lbs (track use only). I may even go with the smaller unit.
Any insight on Kraftwerks and the implosion?
I am extremely close to purchasing a kit for mine and these posts make me bit nervous.
I am not looking for huge HP numbers, just good reliable track setup. I would be more than happy with about 165 to 170 HP. The only weighs a bit over 1900 lbs (track use only). I may even go with the smaller unit.
Any insight on Kraftwerks and the implosion?
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12-19-2011, 02:08 AM
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Oscar Jackson has cut all ties with Kraftwerks, and 949 quit carrying the kit. There will probably never be a stage II or big boost kit, or CARB certification, etc. That being said the kit's a pretty simple install, and is reliable. Kraftwerks customer service is suspect at this point, but the current kit is pretty well fleshed out.
As long as you're ok with buying the kit with no expectation of them providing a drop-in upgrade path, you should be fine. There are a number of high-horsepower rotrex miatas out there now with a variety of engine management solutions.
As long as you're ok with buying the kit with no expectation of them providing a drop-in upgrade path, you should be fine. There are a number of high-horsepower rotrex miatas out there now with a variety of engine management solutions.
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12-19-2011, 07:01 AM
#16
yes the install and setup are easy, problem area is belting, dyno'ed 224 whp on mustang dyno with C30-74, no restrictor,
pulled it off when 949 stopped carrying it, sold the complete kit with IC to a person in France, last report it is back on and running,
selected BEGi for turbo because of high efficiency/long service history
pulled it off when 949 stopped carrying it, sold the complete kit with IC to a person in France, last report it is back on and running,
selected BEGi for turbo because of high efficiency/long service history
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12-19-2011, 10:46 AM
#17
It's not hard to make 170whp out of a base kit with an FMIC and an ECU. If you do get one, there are enough people one here (myself included) that can help with guidance for installation etc.
I love driving my car, the powerband is great and personally for me the best part is the low underhood temps and not having to worry about boost creep/spike.
I love driving my car, the powerband is great and personally for me the best part is the low underhood temps and not having to worry about boost creep/spike.
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12-19-2011, 06:42 PM
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Thank you very much for all the input. I do feel better about getting the kit now. I really have no desire to make more power than that.
Reliablity and simplicity are much higher on my list than huge HP. I am using a MS DYPNP and RX8 injectors. Working on the FMIC setup after I get the kit to sort out the plumbing.
I have read about the suspect cust. svc at Kraftwerks. My hope is that due to the simplicity of the kit and the help from Forum members, I will be able to work through it.
Appreciate the advice and offer to help.
Reliablity and simplicity are much higher on my list than huge HP. I am using a MS DYPNP and RX8 injectors. Working on the FMIC setup after I get the kit to sort out the plumbing.
I have read about the suspect cust. svc at Kraftwerks. My hope is that due to the simplicity of the kit and the help from Forum members, I will be able to work through it.
Appreciate the advice and offer to help.
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