msydnor

iTrader: (3)

I'm not sure what you mean by fucked, but if you mean disadvantaged through lack of income or opportunity, I never buy into that. I was born in the sixties in the south. we didn't have **** and what we did have belonged to what was unofficially the man we were sharecropping for. Today my poor country *** has a degree and makes a pretty damn decent living(decent enough that the current economy is not hurting me), and no one gave it to me. Matter of fact, the area and time I grew up, there were plenty trying to keep the american dreaqm from me. The difference for me was parents that raised me right, and taught me to work hard, be honest, and never give up.

Future_Ls1_Miata

iTrader: (3)

Ok, there are deadbeats in America. So, who do you consider a deadbeat? A working mom/dad who cannot afford simple payments/bills because they have children... because "they could not better themselves by getting a college education?". I know so many older people who do in fact rely on stimulus checks to help pay some of their bills and some gov't relief. They usually lost their jobs because Giant corporations that cheapen everything make regular jobs obsolete. My parents lost their jobs after 20 some years and they couldn't afford and/or pass college. They don't get any help from the gov't other than some financial aid for me to go to college so I can help them out someday.
Don't blame your gov't. The rich are born with money, they turn money into more money. They do not care for benifiting others... like increasing pay/benefits. If you never had the opportunity to go to college, then you're pretty much stuck with a 7 dollar an hour job, maybe $14 an hour if your lucky. Have you ever tried to go to work and college at the same time? It's pretty damn hard. You gotta eat, you need a house, you need a car, and you need to take time out to enjoy yourself. And what company will guarantee to hire you after you do get the degree? $9 an hour. 50 hours a week... that's about $450 a week. Multiply that by 4 you get $1800 a month. Now, try to live off of that NOW in this recession.
Food:$600 a month Rent: $600 Bills(phone, insurance, car, water,heat):$400 extra stuff(enjoyment/beer/movies/life/children): $400... equals about $2000... Now add oil change... car breaks down, hospital bills, accidents, medicine, snacks...holidays, contraceptives... bammm, you're broke, actually under by alot.

naarleven

iTrader: (2)

So there we go. By being born into a family with good parenting, you were in a advantageous situation comparatively.

Imagine being born into that situation, except this time you're black, your mother drank while she was pregnant so you have behavioral problems, and your parents are both abusive. Is it your fault you were born into this situation?

Not in the slightest, you have no choice over your parents.

So because of this, there needs to be a third party, one that can approach a situation objectively. May this be an aid organization, a mentoring program, or a government subsidy for college - it helps people.

I was born in the exact opposite from you. My parents were married young and when I was born, it was into relative poverty. My father was able to overcome this all and by the time I was 10 we were living in relative ease (by the time I was in highschool, my father was making seven figures). However, I won't lie, my parents were awful. I won't go into the details of it because its very personal, but by time I dropped out of highschool, it was over 2 months before either of them knew. It was purely my own doing that I am where I am now.

Moral of the story, there is a large combination of factors that go into making an adult, some of them advantageous, some of them disadvantageous. It is the moral obligation of people to help those around them because in the end as the golden rule states, you would want them to help you as well. Some people have no where to turn other than government, and if they're what you word as a "deadbeat", I suggest you look a little more in depth into their lives to see what went wrong, often its something that was out of their hands by the time they were born.

Savington

iTrader: (31)

You suck at budgeting your money. $600 a month on food? That's $20 a day. There are entire families that eat on less. You could eat at a deli and have steak every night for $20 a day. $600 in bills? Insurance is $80/mo tops, cell phone and internet are $100 combined, then you've got electricity, gas, water, etc. all of which shouldn't surpass $150-200 if you're doing it right. $400, tops. $400 a month in enjoyment/beer/movies/life? You make $22k a year. Spending 20% of it on hookers and blow is why this country is in a recession in the first place.

msydnor

iTrader: (3)

I'm old. When I was coming up people helped each other out. Now, no one wants to help anyone else, and to many people expect things to be given to them. Just look at the business sector in general. How many places do you go and people at a store or resturant act like you are bothering them. People that have jobs want to get paid, but don't want to do any work. People have no work ethic these days, it's all about me me me...Hell, churches use to help people in the community, that has even dropped off, and in come cases don't exist, not like it use too. I wrote a paper for one of my classes a few weeks ago and my final statement IMO kind of sums it up...If people start taking care of themselves and each other, maybe the government won't keep trying to do it for them.

Vashthestampede

iTrader: (17)

Deadbeat: Man or women, young or old, single or married, with or without children, that chooses to let someone take care of them. Rather than take care of themselves. (If they are physically or mentally not capable of doing so....then that would be called an exception)

My parents came from nothing. Ran away at 18, eloped and started a future. Without going into detail they struggled. Both worked and had 3 kids to take care of. My fathers hard work payed off and he started doing well. Then I was born. Since then things have been good for us. But it was because my parents made it. They raised me to the same degree and now I know why. I feel very confident that I could continue to work year round no matter how many jobs are lost. Someone somewhere is always looking for help.

Right now we are slow with foundation work, taking 2 weeks off. Instead of collecting I am roofing with a buddy of mine. Thats just how I am, I get off on working hard. I could never live the life of a bum, loser, sit around ****. I have strong feelings against lazy souls that look for free rides. But at the same time if I saw a guy on the street dying from thirst of course I would help him. I just refuse to be OK with the **** thats going on at the moment.

Stein

iTrader: (46)

I never finished college. After I realized that I really didn't want to be a high school teacher I quit after three years and I went to work as a tool and die maker on a "will train" basis. Yep, on the job training. Did that for several years. Eventually got out of it and started selling insurance. Did that for a couple of years. Boss found out that I was looking for a new agency to move to so she canned me. Tried to go it alone for a year but it was tough starting from scratch. Went back to my old tool and die job. After a couple of years I answered the ad for the job I have now. Sales Manager for a tool and die firm. There were 250 appliants for that job. I earned it. I've been there 14 years now and it's a great job. Pays well over $100K which is pretty good money in Nebraska. I did it all on my own, with no help from the government, no help from my parents and without a college degree. It took a lot of work, a lot of time travelling and dedication to the job. It can be done by a regular joe if they are willing to put forth the effort.

patsmx5

iTrader: (16)

I agree on all points.


I think more education is one step in the right direction. 40 and 50 years ago a high school education was all you needed to get a good paying job. Today, a high school education is not sufficient to be competitive in the work force. Times have changed over the last half a century, but education requirements have not changed with them accordingly. I believe this really needs addressing.

naarleven

iTrader: (2)

Unless you're really old, government assistance has been around for quite a while. The modern welfare state is/has been/will be modified to be more efficient. Hence the transition from the welfare check based system to the "Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Act" which was passed under Bill Clinton.

Temporary assistance was still given but it was just that, temporary. The move was to assist more people into a "workfare" system. If anything the system is getting better than what was around/known in the liberal revolution of the 1930's and 1960's. Namely the current administration is a large proponent of the "third way".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Way_(centrism)

But on the "golden age" thing, the generation that is always lauded as the freedom fighting, strong work ethic generation is also the same one that publicly supported lynching and segregation and other various horrifying reproaches against human rights (think internment camps).

msydnor

iTrader: (3)

My point was not that it didn't exist, it was that less people needed it because the community was more active in helping people. I'm very aware of the generation of lynching and segregation, I grew up with it. I've seen crosses burning on the front yard and the year I started school was the first year the desegregated them where I lived. I grew up using seperate bathrooms, water fountains etc. we couldn't eat in most resturants. You read about it, I experienced it.

Future_Ls1_Miata

iTrader: (3)

Also, I believe everyone is intelligent. But there are variations of people. There are the resilient kind who have natural abilities. Even though they started off with nothing, they eventually make a decent living off themselves. Then there are people who were told that they could never amount to nothing, nor had the "right friends" at the right time, and just don't have enough damn self-esteem to pull themselves together. It's sad, but true. These people could not catch up in time and are stuck in a pretty miserable predicament.
Plus I am curious...Name a specific "Deadbeat". Don't blame a faceless multitude of people, and assume that they're some "lazy" bums. Not everyone is going to be well-adjusted. It's physically and godly impossible. Plus there worser **** than "Bums"... like how we spend an average of $20,000 facilating convicts/murderers/rapist/molesters/petty crooks... and so on. Plus, why on Earth does any 1(one) individual need 1,000,000,000 dollars. There should be a cap on that.

y8s

iTrader: (8)

I'm pretty sure the mortgage crisis was take take take. companies made money off giving away loans. a few people got very rich and a large number of people were fooled into thinking they were OK.

you see, that's why the government has to step in. because there are greedy bastards out there that don't care about everyone else. I'm not talking just the poor and stupid either, I'm talking hard working people.

oh and as for socialized health care, are you all happy with how your current health insurance program is run? Find out how much you're paying for it already and then how much it costs when you need surgery. and hope to god that surgery is preapproved 10 times in writing or you're out 50,000 dollars you didn't have. hard working doesn't fix that now does it.


just to put a personal point on this for the "you = ricky schroeder" crowd:

I grew up in a middle class house. my dad worked at a parts counter and my mom worked temp jobs. when I was born, neither parent had a college degree. I had a job at age 14 and worked most afternoons after I turned 16. I took out loans to pay for college because I had no other means.

now i have a salaried job doing engineering work full time. i work every day just like you. work is work. dont tell me my work is less important than your work.

and then I come home and I work more. tonight I put tile on my counter top. if you value physical labor, I've been doing this almost every night for the last two weeks including weekends. so lets add that up.... 8 hours of normal work plus 4 or so hours of work at home. that's a solid day.

and you know what? I am happy to pay my taxes so that this country isn't a heaping pile of ****. I might even kick in a little more if it meant raising the standard of living a little bit for me and everyone else.

incidentally, the "give a homeless guy a fish" is a very glib and uninformed summary of how the system works. just because you imagine it works that way, doesn't mean it actually does. it's more like giving the homeless guy fishing lessons. maybe a pole. not just the fish.

y8s

iTrader: (8)

what's socialism mean to you?

messiahx

iTrader: (2)

I just want to say that sometimes **** gets expensive. I'm single, 20, living by myself. I pay $625 in rent, $90 in utilities, $220ish on food. I have one loan payment of $200, this will increase to probably $500/mo when my other ones come out of deferment. Note this doesn't include gas and other bills. Now, I never planned to be in this situation (ex-fiance kinda fucked me over), but I learned very quickly how expensive stuff can be. And I live in a fairly inexpensive, semi-rural town.

I was working and going to school, but I decided to drop out of college (have a 2 year degree, thankfully). While going to school, I could barely afford anything (and I was driving 500 miles/wk). Now that I'm working full time, I can finally sleep at night.

I can't imagine how much it sucks right now for people who weren't as fortunate as me to have good connections in the area, good parents to help out, etc.

I also agree that some people need to work harder to improve themselves. A few hundred years ago, natural selection would've taken care of the lazy.

Vashthestampede

iTrader: (17)

By give give give I was referring to the loans, but on the other side of the fence. The banks giving out loans left and right to people without proper credit. Now these people are in great new houses with a mortgage they cant afford. Ahhh what the hell, lets let them stay, why leave the house empty and put families on the street. Meanwhile 9-5 Sally and construction worker Joe down the road pay their mortgage on time every month. And now they should each put a little more of their money away for the losers up the road.

Not sure what the problem with health insurance is. I went and got a physical years ago and got on my plan. Been on it for 7 years now and pay $50 a week. I am single and not married, I don't have a clue if thats average cost or not. Anycase when I snapped my ligament the total cost for the procedure was over $10k. I paid only $20 co-pays every visit and that was it. My mother however wasn't so lucky with her skin cancer when she went on interferon. The insurance company midway through dropped out of the study and my parents now had to fund $1000's of medicine a week. So I guess the medical/insurance setup can work both ways for people.

When you say you would pay more taxes for a better standard of living, for whom do you speak of. The middle class? The rich? The poor? Everyone? Should everyones taxes be raised just cause you feel that way? Thats dreamland fairytale stuff sorry. Help your neighbor if you want, but you cant help the world.

I'm just stating it how it is. When gas prices were sky high and people were talking about having a nationwide dry day, did that happen. The nation wouldn't even come together to save money, what makes people think the nation will come together to spend more! Ohh, and don't forget its for the slackers that cant handle it.

Please.

Vashthestampede

iTrader: (17)

msydnor

iTrader: (3)

I hear that word so much these days. Most of the people using it don't even know what it means.

mazda/nissan

iTrader: (2)

well it sounds like there are a bunch of utilitarians on this forum, wanting to help the people who can't help themselves. So I could give a hobo on the street here in America $5 and hope he doesn't go spend it on boos, or I could give $5 to a starving family in a 3rd world country and feed them for a week (at least). Even those who claim to have "nothing" in this country are living a life of extravagance compared to other people around the world. How often do you hear of hundreds of people just dropping dead in our streets because of starvation? So unless you are going to put your money where it can best be utilized for the world, then don't give it away at all. Or you could believe deontology and just say "I didn't create this problem so I have no obligation to fix it".

msydnor

iTrader: (3)

If yu want to give, there are actually people in this country that are just as worthy of charity. As an example, this past christmas, instead of spending a bunch of money on gift for eah other, my wife and I worked with some local churches to find familes experiencing hardship. We didn't want to help people who were just deadbeats, so we were very selective. Not everyone who has fallen on hard times in this country is a deadbeat.

y8s

iTrader: (8)

I do question the end result of the mortgage stuff, but only because I dont want my house to drop in value because of the housing market being artificially deflated by govt funding. HOWEVER... If I qualify for some of that money even if I dont need it, don't get me wrong, I will take it.

I want the name of your health ins company!!

See the thing is, if you got canada or somewhere like that, sure you pay a little more tax, but you get all of your healthcare taken care of. no $50 a week, no copay, nothing. or in my case, no money pulled out of your paycheck to fund part of it.

what's more, your employer (my employer) now doesn't have to cough up a few hundred dollars a month for my insurance anymore. they could either pay it to me or put it into the company. lets say they pay it to me... now it takes the pain off paying those extra taxes. and there is never a surge in healthcare costs for me. if I'm healthy, great. if fall off my roof, I dont pay a dime.

true, I can't help the world. and by standard of living, I mean those below poverty level. maybe the middle class. I doubt the rich need it if they're already rich.

No dry day, but GM disbanded Hummer because sales tanked. i bet that's close enough to a dry day if you do the math. I want to look for a gasoline sales trend for last year (in gallons) and see if there was a decline.

and WHO are the slackers you're talking about??