EGT Logging revisit
#21
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Jim
#22
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It all depends on where your probe is. My application is naturally aspirated and I easily see temps of up to 850*C (1600*F). Friends with Greddy turbos see up to 1400-1450*F. I have the probe about 1.5" away from the head; they have the probe about 2" away from the turbo, which acts a huge heatsink (remember that the purpose of the turbo is to absorb the energy of the exhaust gas - kinetic energy and heat which is in fact tiny kinetic energy in the nanoworld), so the temps AFTER the turbo are guaranteed to be lower than before the turbo. Depending on the size of the turbo as well as several other parameters, I expect to see 100-150*C of lower EGT after the turbo (ie: 950*C before, 800*C after).
Jim
Jim
First of all; a big to elesjuan for starting this thread and to all previous posters for contributing. I repeat what I've said before; you young guys never cease to amaze me! This kind of thread is what separates you from other forums.
Now, on to my question to reverant; Jim, my question is: why AFTER the turbo? If I read your post correctly, temperatures before the turbo would be higher. And back to a question already asked: what would be the ideal (?) temperature anyone should shoot for?
I come from an era when there were no EMSs in the cars and tuners would always tune based on EGTs but I never found a tuner that could give me a solid answer. The closest was to tell me to watch out not to go over 1600 degrees
Thanks,
Rafa
BTW, MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL!
#28
I have found that most modern gauges lack Cold Junction Compensation. The cold junction is where the two metals join on your circuit (yes, they do join internally on the circuit). The voltage measured at the ends of the thermocouple wire is not only dependant of the temperature of the probe (hot junction) but also of the temperature at the circuit end of the wires (ie where you connect the wires to the circuit) - the cold junction.
I'm definately going to do this soon...
#29
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Wow man! Thats probably the single most impressive piece of information I've ever read on something technical like this.
Thank you very much for the info!
I do have a quasi-related thermodynamic question about turbochargers and myths of heat..
Given that an engine is turbocharged and in moderate tune to produce a good amount of power, lets say for example the temps right outside the exhaust ports are around 1500*. What differential would you say that is from the actual combustion CHAMBER vs. the probe measurement? The cylinder heads are aluminum which remove heat from the combustion pretty well, pistons are aluminum and oil cooled, plus the valves (which I wouldn't factor much cooling properties from the steel valves just wanted to mention them.) Adding on the turbo manifold which is cast iron in my case, plus the turbocharger which is cast iron. Turbos by design are mufflers and heat sinks, they use thermal energy along with gas / air flow to spin the turbine.
Taking that information into consideration, are there really benefits from adding thermal or ceramic coatings to Pistons, Manifolds, and turbine housings? Do these benefits contribute more to keeping say, my brake master cylinder from melting or the efficiency of the engines combustion process? I've heard old myths before that "header wrap" especially on high heat applications ie. turbochargers will actually cause the materials wrapped in to physically fatigue?
So if I bought one of the K-type units I found from the other thread I need to find more K-type wire and the connectors all the way to the PCB where the AD595 chip is soldered on? That board will be inside the megasquirt case, I mounted a small expansion PCB to the inside of the cover for small circuits like this.
Thank you very much for the info!
I do have a quasi-related thermodynamic question about turbochargers and myths of heat..
Given that an engine is turbocharged and in moderate tune to produce a good amount of power, lets say for example the temps right outside the exhaust ports are around 1500*. What differential would you say that is from the actual combustion CHAMBER vs. the probe measurement? The cylinder heads are aluminum which remove heat from the combustion pretty well, pistons are aluminum and oil cooled, plus the valves (which I wouldn't factor much cooling properties from the steel valves just wanted to mention them.) Adding on the turbo manifold which is cast iron in my case, plus the turbocharger which is cast iron. Turbos by design are mufflers and heat sinks, they use thermal energy along with gas / air flow to spin the turbine.
Taking that information into consideration, are there really benefits from adding thermal or ceramic coatings to Pistons, Manifolds, and turbine housings? Do these benefits contribute more to keeping say, my brake master cylinder from melting or the efficiency of the engines combustion process? I've heard old myths before that "header wrap" especially on high heat applications ie. turbochargers will actually cause the materials wrapped in to physically fatigue?
Just make sure that you solder/connect the wires as near to the AD595 chip as possible and NEVER use any different wires/connectors to extend the thermocouple wire. Only use special type K wires and connectors.
#30
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Given that an engine is turbocharged and in moderate tune to produce a good amount of power, lets say for example the temps right outside the exhaust ports are around 1500*. What differential would you say that is from the actual combustion CHAMBER vs. the probe measurement?
So if I bought one of the K-type units I found from the other thread I need to find more K-type wire and the connectors all the way to the PCB where the AD595 chip is soldered on? That board will be inside the megasquirt case, I mounted a small expansion PCB to the inside of the cover for small circuits like this.
http://export.farnell.com/jsp/Connec...sp?sku=8598282
http://export.farnell.com/jsp/Connec...sp?sku=3810628
Jim
#31
Reverant is right, in that you're getting sort of course information here.... But, there's some interesting caveats, you might at first think it's obvious the cylinder is hotter than the gas, but it's the gas doing the heating, if it's not in the chamber long enough, the chamber won't necessarily get to the temperature of the gas (theoretically it can't) not to mention there's boundary layer issues: On broad, flat surfaces gas doesn't really "scrape" the surfaces - the whole thing about how your car can stay dirty driving at 100 mph, the boundary layer keeps the moving air from "touching" the surface of your car.
Anyway, I've heard the metal in the chamber is often colder than the gas coming out - and I assume since the egt probe is "sharp" it does a better job of measuring the temps of the flowing air.
The links didn't work to the parts, but the idea is nice! Beats soldering to the board!
The earlier link was odd - mostly I have heard what it said before - the tuning systems they sell are a bit simplistic, and it seemed to be dumbed down just a bit? Anyway, I'm learning stuff, keep it coming. :-)
Anyway, I've heard the metal in the chamber is often colder than the gas coming out - and I assume since the egt probe is "sharp" it does a better job of measuring the temps of the flowing air.
The links didn't work to the parts, but the idea is nice! Beats soldering to the board!
The earlier link was odd - mostly I have heard what it said before - the tuning systems they sell are a bit simplistic, and it seemed to be dumbed down just a bit? Anyway, I'm learning stuff, keep it coming. :-)
#32
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Abe: I sifted through that link Reverant posted and found the parts he was trying to post. Javascript on the page makes links hard to post on a forum.
Went to the root page http://www.farnell.com clicked on United States, Connectors, industrial, Thermocouples.
Good find!! They're not too expensive from there either.
Even found this on there!
Went to the root page http://www.farnell.com clicked on United States, Connectors, industrial, Thermocouples.
Good find!! They're not too expensive from there either.
Even found this on there!
#33
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http://www.egauges.com/vdo_indS.asp?...ad&PN=R660-6PL
Place in the states, I think thats acceptable wire for a thermocouple using one of their sensors like this one: http://www.egauges.com/vdo_indS.asp?...1_5&PN=R650SPL
Add those K-type plugs for the megasquirt case and you're golden!
Place in the states, I think thats acceptable wire for a thermocouple using one of their sensors like this one: http://www.egauges.com/vdo_indS.asp?...1_5&PN=R650SPL
Add those K-type plugs for the megasquirt case and you're golden!
#34
k-type in green? That's just weird. Green is... I forget, not k type. Purple is t, J is brown? I don't remember.
Anyway, if it's labled k, it's probably right. And yeah, adding them in the case would be great. It's on my short list of must-do's
I think I still like the probe I got better, very exposed tip, must be pretty fast. Then again, you can get even more exposed so.... It's always a trade off.
Anyway, if it's labled k, it's probably right. And yeah, adding them in the case would be great. It's on my short list of must-do's
I think I still like the probe I got better, very exposed tip, must be pretty fast. Then again, you can get even more exposed so.... It's always a trade off.
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One thing left to find... According to Reverant the wires from the Case plug to the board need to be thermocouple wire also? Where would one find say 6" of that type of wire, or will regular copper work in that position?
#36
You should keep the same metal as far along as you can - you could get a thermocouple passthrough, which will work great but be pricey. Personally, I'll probably just use a pigtail, or mount the board right near the edge so the thermo standard connector can plug in through the side. The trouble with changing wires outside the box is there's more likely to be different temps inside the box than outside.
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Okay I think I have a good solution.
I'll cut a small notch in the endplate of the case to run the cable through inside then mount one of the K-type sockets directly to the board. That way the sensor plugs into the harness cable, then that cable plugs into the circuit board but can be disconnected easily. Hopefully that'll work.
I'll cut a small notch in the endplate of the case to run the cable through inside then mount one of the K-type sockets directly to the board. That way the sensor plugs into the harness cable, then that cable plugs into the circuit board but can be disconnected easily. Hopefully that'll work.
#38
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k-type in green? That's just weird. Green is... I forget, not k type. Purple is t, J is brown? I don't remember.
Anyway, if it's labled k, it's probably right. And yeah, adding them in the case would be great. It's on my short list of must-do's
I think I still like the probe I got better, very exposed tip, must be pretty fast. Then again, you can get even more exposed so.... It's always a trade off.
Anyway, if it's labled k, it's probably right. And yeah, adding them in the case would be great. It's on my short list of must-do's
I think I still like the probe I got better, very exposed tip, must be pretty fast. Then again, you can get even more exposed so.... It's always a trade off.
Jim
#39
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COPPER WILL NOT DO!!
Jim
#40
The place I posted sells the sensor, with connectors, and the cable by the foot as well.
Maybe it didn't make it into this thread.
http://www.teamrip.com/accessories.html
pics of my probe:
http://abefm.smugmug.com/gallery/4022112#234090908
Oh, the guy is terrible with email, etc - the parts came, just after I started to worry they wouldn't. Effectively, it was fine - pay and nice parts come. But don't expect to start a conversation with the guy.
If anyone's looking for open-element ones, I have a friend who found some cheap. Might be worth checking into, though they don't last long. If I were going to bother running 4 sensors (hint to no one in particular) wouldn't it be worth having them FAST?
Maybe it didn't make it into this thread.
http://www.teamrip.com/accessories.html
pics of my probe:
http://abefm.smugmug.com/gallery/4022112#234090908
Oh, the guy is terrible with email, etc - the parts came, just after I started to worry they wouldn't. Effectively, it was fine - pay and nice parts come. But don't expect to start a conversation with the guy.
If anyone's looking for open-element ones, I have a friend who found some cheap. Might be worth checking into, though they don't last long. If I were going to bother running 4 sensors (hint to no one in particular) wouldn't it be worth having them FAST?
Last edited by AbeFM; 12-27-2007 at 04:48 PM.