FM No Electronics Kit - Lets discuss options ...
08-15-2013, 03:12 PM
#1
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FM No Electronics Kit - Lets discuss options ...
First off let me start off by saying i have 1994 1.8l base. No a/c no p/s.
i already have a Rev built MS2 on the way and i have rebuilt 460cc injectors in hand. I am sold on the FM no electronics kit, but i have a few questions about their options before i order.
How long do their normal rubber oil lines last for? Is it a year or three years? If its around three years i don't see the need for an immediate upgrade. But if not, ide rather get it out of the way.
Also FM really suggested their iconel stud kit - and after reading about it , it seems like a good choice to have them pre-installed by them.
I sent Rev a PM, but im sure he is so busy - so ill ask here ... i doubt the MS2 has any provisions or care for the EGR system, so should i assume i should add the EGR block off kit to the cart.
I went over FM's and Begi's install instructions, and i dont see really anything about the PCV system. Catch can inbetween the valve cover vent and the intake manifold sufficient enough?
My goals are honestly a SAFE and reliable 10 psi set up. The car will never see track days, just spiriting driving and possibly be driven everyday. Im not concerned about the dyno numbers as long as its safe.
So let's discuss ... any thoughts/comments/suggestions or concerns on anything i overlooked?
i already have a Rev built MS2 on the way and i have rebuilt 460cc injectors in hand. I am sold on the FM no electronics kit, but i have a few questions about their options before i order.
How long do their normal rubber oil lines last for? Is it a year or three years? If its around three years i don't see the need for an immediate upgrade. But if not, ide rather get it out of the way.
Also FM really suggested their iconel stud kit - and after reading about it , it seems like a good choice to have them pre-installed by them.
I sent Rev a PM, but im sure he is so busy - so ill ask here ... i doubt the MS2 has any provisions or care for the EGR system, so should i assume i should add the EGR block off kit to the cart.
I went over FM's and Begi's install instructions, and i dont see really anything about the PCV system. Catch can inbetween the valve cover vent and the intake manifold sufficient enough?
My goals are honestly a SAFE and reliable 10 psi set up. The car will never see track days, just spiriting driving and possibly be driven everyday. Im not concerned about the dyno numbers as long as its safe.
So let's discuss ... any thoughts/comments/suggestions or concerns on anything i overlooked?
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08-15-2013, 03:23 PM
#3
If you're not going to do track-days, inconel studs is what I would consider a "nice to have". Regarding the oil/water lines, it depends on how much you like tearing the car apart and putting it back together. I've got a preference of "one-and-done" where possible, so I have hardlines. You might get 3-5 years out of the standard hose stuff before you start to notice they need replaced, I'm not sure.
For PCV, route both lines to a catch can first. If you want to route to the intake, then you'll want to route to pre-turbo...you might want to add an oil drain plug to the bottom of your intercooler if that's the case though...most of us VTA. You don't need to spend money on a block off plate; as long as you have silicone gasket maker, a drill, a saw, and a sturdy flat piece of metal, you can make your own block off plate. Remove EGR valve, use same bolts, bolt plate into place. Alternatively, just unplug your EGR valve and voila! your EGR port is blocked by the closed EGR valve.
For PCV, route both lines to a catch can first. If you want to route to the intake, then you'll want to route to pre-turbo...you might want to add an oil drain plug to the bottom of your intercooler if that's the case though...most of us VTA. You don't need to spend money on a block off plate; as long as you have silicone gasket maker, a drill, a saw, and a sturdy flat piece of metal, you can make your own block off plate. Remove EGR valve, use same bolts, bolt plate into place. Alternatively, just unplug your EGR valve and voila! your EGR port is blocked by the closed EGR valve.
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08-15-2013, 04:17 PM
#4
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If you're not going to do track-days, inconel studs is what I would consider a "nice to have". Regarding the oil/water lines, it depends on how much you like tearing the car apart and putting it back together. I've got a preference of "one-and-done" where possible, so I have hardlines. You might get 3-5 years out of the standard hose stuff before you start to notice they need replaced, I'm not sure.
For PCV, route both lines to a catch can first. If you want to route to the intake, then you'll want to route to pre-turbo...you might want to add an oil drain plug to the bottom of your intercooler if that's the case though...most of us VTA. You don't need to spend money on a block off plate; as long as you have silicone gasket maker, a drill, a saw, and a sturdy flat piece of metal, you can make your own block off plate. Remove EGR valve, use same bolts, bolt plate into place. Alternatively, just unplug your EGR valve and voila! your EGR port is blocked by the closed EGR valve.
For PCV, route both lines to a catch can first. If you want to route to the intake, then you'll want to route to pre-turbo...you might want to add an oil drain plug to the bottom of your intercooler if that's the case though...most of us VTA. You don't need to spend money on a block off plate; as long as you have silicone gasket maker, a drill, a saw, and a sturdy flat piece of metal, you can make your own block off plate. Remove EGR valve, use same bolts, bolt plate into place. Alternatively, just unplug your EGR valve and voila! your EGR port is blocked by the closed EGR valve.
I will do more research on the catch can stuff , but it sounds like the iconel studs are a great idea. don't wan't any of the setup coming loose or break if i am driving it hard on the street.
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08-15-2013, 04:38 PM
#6
I would run the OEM 300zx studs instead of the FM kit if you're doing the work yourself, $25 for the 300zx studs vs whatever FM is charging. EGR blockoff is probably a good thing to add, it lets you get a whole bunch of clutter out of the intake side of the engine bay.
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08-15-2013, 04:48 PM
#7
The FM hard lines (at least when i purchased them) do not make a hard connection to the motor points. In the *soft* base kit, you have a stainless braided oil line if I recall correctly, and everything else is rubber hoses. With the kit, you get two water lines which bolt to the turbo and are routed to recommended stock water pickup locations on the miata where they are joined to the existing pickup locations with a short length of rubber hose that acts as nothing more than a coupler for the two hard lines. For the oil drain, the hard line again bolts to the turbo. A ways down the hard line is a stainless steel flex section followed by more hard line. The hard line terminates near the oil pan where, again, you must join the hardline to an already tapped oil pan with a short length of rubber hose. The actual connection at the oil pan is the same as if you ran soft lines to the pan. Easily drillable with the engine and car still fully assembled. The short rubber lines at the end of these hard lines are worry free because they are located a significant distance away from the heat of the turbocharger. I bought the hardline kit when it first came out and replaced my rubber lines, the hardest part was nearly needing to take the turbo out of the car to install the lines, but I didn't have to do a thing to the previously installed oil pan tap, just couple the hard line to the fitting with a short piece of rubber hose. If you have offset box end wrenches, they'll make your life easier during the install.
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08-15-2013, 07:22 PM
#8
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Couple things. I bought exactly that for my 94. FM no electronics kit. With injectors and Megasquirt.
Oil return won't last after you take it off once. Water lines and oil feed will. But the oil return will not. I converted to an AN setup with stainless braided line for my oil return.
Stud kit is meh. I don't think i have them. I torque, heat cycle it a few times, get it pretty hot then torque again. When i just took it off again my exhaust manifold nuts to the head were loose. So it is what it is, just gotta stay on top of it.
Get a clutch, exhaust, and intercooler. No electronics kit just comes with a crossover pipe and isn't good for much except get the car running.
I didn't use a catch can, i may build one now that i'm running way more than 10psi. You shouldn't need one. Unless you need the EGR, delete it, block off plate, ask for it with your kit when you buy it.
Lastly, buy a wideband. This is a must.
Oil return won't last after you take it off once. Water lines and oil feed will. But the oil return will not. I converted to an AN setup with stainless braided line for my oil return.
Stud kit is meh. I don't think i have them. I torque, heat cycle it a few times, get it pretty hot then torque again. When i just took it off again my exhaust manifold nuts to the head were loose. So it is what it is, just gotta stay on top of it.
Get a clutch, exhaust, and intercooler. No electronics kit just comes with a crossover pipe and isn't good for much except get the car running.
I didn't use a catch can, i may build one now that i'm running way more than 10psi. You shouldn't need one. Unless you need the EGR, delete it, block off plate, ask for it with your kit when you buy it.
Lastly, buy a wideband. This is a must.
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08-15-2013, 07:36 PM
#9
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Couple things. I bought exactly that for my 94. FM no electronics kit. With injectors and Megasquirt.
Oil return won't last after you take it off once. Water lines and oil feed will. But the oil return will not. I converted to an AN setup with stainless braided line for my oil return.
Stud kit is meh. I don't think i have them. I torque, heat cycle it a few times, get it pretty hot then torque again. When i just took it off again my exhaust manifold nuts to the head were loose. So it is what it is, just gotta stay on top of it.
Get a clutch, exhaust, and intercooler. No electronics kit just comes with a crossover pipe and isn't good for much except get the car running.
I didn't use a catch can, i may build one now that i'm running way more than 10psi. You shouldn't need one. Unless you need the EGR, delete it, block off plate, ask for it with your kit when you buy it.
Lastly, buy a wideband. This is a must.
Oil return won't last after you take it off once. Water lines and oil feed will. But the oil return will not. I converted to an AN setup with stainless braided line for my oil return.
Stud kit is meh. I don't think i have them. I torque, heat cycle it a few times, get it pretty hot then torque again. When i just took it off again my exhaust manifold nuts to the head were loose. So it is what it is, just gotta stay on top of it.
Get a clutch, exhaust, and intercooler. No electronics kit just comes with a crossover pipe and isn't good for much except get the car running.
I didn't use a catch can, i may build one now that i'm running way more than 10psi. You shouldn't need one. Unless you need the EGR, delete it, block off plate, ask for it with your kit when you buy it.
Lastly, buy a wideband. This is a must.
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08-15-2013, 07:46 PM
#12
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The FM hard lines (at least when i purchased them) do not make a hard connection to the motor points. In the *soft* base kit, you have a stainless braided oil line if I recall correctly, and everything else is rubber hoses. With the kit, you get two water lines which bolt to the turbo and are routed to recommended stock water pickup locations on the miata where they are joined to the existing pickup locations with a short length of rubber hose that acts as nothing more than a coupler for the two hard lines. For the oil drain, the hard line again bolts to the turbo. A ways down the hard line is a stainless steel flex section followed by more hard line. The hard line terminates near the oil pan where, again, you must join the hardline to an already tapped oil pan with a short length of rubber hose. The actual connection at the oil pan is the same as if you ran soft lines to the pan. Easily drillable with the engine and car still fully assembled. The short rubber lines at the end of these hard lines are worry free because they are located a significant distance away from the heat of the turbocharger. I bought the hardline kit when it first came out and replaced my rubber lines, the hardest part was nearly needing to take the turbo out of the car to install the lines, but I didn't have to do a thing to the previously installed oil pan tap, just couple the hard line to the fitting with a short piece of rubber hose. If you have offset box end wrenches, they'll make your life easier during the install.
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08-15-2013, 07:48 PM
#13
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Im not worried about the price of the kit, im fine with it. FM has great quality , and ide rather just take it out of the box knowing it will work. I was just worried about the options.
Thank you though.
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08-15-2013, 11:25 PM
#14
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This is a case of "how much is your time worth?".
I buy FM parts because I have a wife, two kids, and I spend entirely too much time at work. The time saved by having all the parts come in one box, not having to use a grinder to install them, etc is well worth the extra cost to me.
Lots of folks on this forum have more free time than spare cash.
To the original questions:
My experience is that the reinforced silicone coolant lines (the standard ones) last fine. The rubber hose oil drain line lasts fine so long as you don't take it off the car. When it comes time to take it off, you pretty much have to cut it off, so you'll wind up putting on a new one. I use the silicone coolant lines and an AN braided stainless drain line that I put together myself using Earl's hardware from Summit.
Inconel is important if you're going to beat on it at the track, not really a big deal for street. That said, it's moderately a pain in the butt to install later (gotta take off the DP, then turbo+manifold+outlet casting, then take apart those three bits, then change the studs), so there's a good case to be made for doing it all at once.
EGR blockoff kit isn't required, you can leave the pipe installed and the MS2 will leave the valve closed. It *is* a whole lot easier to install the exhaust manifold if you're deleting the EGR though.
You haven't mentioned a radiator yet.
I highly recommend a 3" exhaust, it drastically improves the spoolup of the turbo over a 2.5". FM has a quality piece (again, you'll pay for that quality, but it's totally worth it IMHO).
--Ian
I buy FM parts because I have a wife, two kids, and I spend entirely too much time at work. The time saved by having all the parts come in one box, not having to use a grinder to install them, etc is well worth the extra cost to me.
Lots of folks on this forum have more free time than spare cash.
To the original questions:
My experience is that the reinforced silicone coolant lines (the standard ones) last fine. The rubber hose oil drain line lasts fine so long as you don't take it off the car. When it comes time to take it off, you pretty much have to cut it off, so you'll wind up putting on a new one. I use the silicone coolant lines and an AN braided stainless drain line that I put together myself using Earl's hardware from Summit.
Inconel is important if you're going to beat on it at the track, not really a big deal for street. That said, it's moderately a pain in the butt to install later (gotta take off the DP, then turbo+manifold+outlet casting, then take apart those three bits, then change the studs), so there's a good case to be made for doing it all at once.
EGR blockoff kit isn't required, you can leave the pipe installed and the MS2 will leave the valve closed. It *is* a whole lot easier to install the exhaust manifold if you're deleting the EGR though.
You haven't mentioned a radiator yet.
I highly recommend a 3" exhaust, it drastically improves the spoolup of the turbo over a 2.5". FM has a quality piece (again, you'll pay for that quality, but it's totally worth it IMHO).
--Ian
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08-16-2013, 07:05 AM
#15
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^
The car won't see the track, but im sure ill end up driving it hard on the street so if FM is going to pre-install the studs for 89 bucks with the hardware that doesn't sounds like a bad idea.
I did see in FM's instructions and in a few threads on here people were having trouble installing the manifold with the EGR . I dont mind deleting it, keep it simple.
I do not have a radiator - i have a non brown OEM one at the moment. Also, i know the 3 inch is the way to go for the exhaust but just to get it up and running at this point ill leave what i have on there and upgrade later. Maybe over winter.
The car won't see the track, but im sure ill end up driving it hard on the street so if FM is going to pre-install the studs for 89 bucks with the hardware that doesn't sounds like a bad idea.
I did see in FM's instructions and in a few threads on here people were having trouble installing the manifold with the EGR . I dont mind deleting it, keep it simple.
I do not have a radiator - i have a non brown OEM one at the moment. Also, i know the 3 inch is the way to go for the exhaust but just to get it up and running at this point ill leave what i have on there and upgrade later. Maybe over winter.
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08-16-2013, 07:55 AM
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I was also having boost creep issues with the 2560. I was using a test pipe in place of the cat. If you use a test pipe FM said put a restrictor in the exhaust which is stupid as ****. You may have to port a channel to the wastegate on the turbo.
Look into that. It may be something you want to do, or have someone do before you put it on.
I know begi will do this before they send you their kit/tubo. But i don't think FM will.
Look into that. It may be something you want to do, or have someone do before you put it on.
I know begi will do this before they send you their kit/tubo. But i don't think FM will.
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08-16-2013, 08:41 AM
#17
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I would highly recommend going with a stainless AN drain line from the turbo to the oil pan. To me having a rubber exposed hose that if it gets a leak will quickly drain all the oil of your car just seems like a bad idea. I know people have been doing it for years fine, but for the relative little extra cost to goto a stainless AN I would do it just for the peace of mind.
I would go with the EGR block off kit just for ease of use. It will make the install slightly easier.
I would go with the EGR block off kit just for ease of use. It will make the install slightly easier.
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08-16-2013, 10:11 AM
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I was also having boost creep issues with the 2560. I was using a test pipe in place of the cat. If you use a test pipe FM said put a restrictor in the exhaust which is stupid as ****. You may have to port a channel to the wastegate on the turbo.
Look into that. It may be something you want to do, or have someone do before you put it on.
I know begi will do this before they send you their kit/tubo. But i don't think FM will.
Look into that. It may be something you want to do, or have someone do before you put it on.
I know begi will do this before they send you their kit/tubo. But i don't think FM will.
i thought that was a weird response because you dont normally port to gain psi, you just adjust or add a boost controller but that was his response.
-
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08-16-2013, 10:14 AM
#19
I went through much of the same thought process, and after researching bought the FM no electronics kit with the hard-lines and inconel studs. I ported the wastegate channel on my turbo, creep is minimal (usually will creep about 1psi above my setting of 9psi to an even 10 by redline).
You can read my write-up here if you want to see how it worked for me, the turbo install starts around post #8:
https://www.miataturbo.net/build-thr...s-build-70470/
You can read my write-up here if you want to see how it worked for me, the turbo install starts around post #8:
https://www.miataturbo.net/build-thr...s-build-70470/
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08-16-2013, 10:21 AM
#20
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This is all that needs to be done.
Before:
After:
You can't really "screw it up" unless you're a complete idiot. Plus, you'd be better to do this than blow your engine up.
Their way of raising the boost pressure is fine for a few PSI. It keeps you in a "safe" area so you don't blow your engine up and blame them. Yeah, just use a MBC if you want more.
I can't find the video of me overboosting. But basically i hit like 20psi.
Before:
After:
You can't really "screw it up" unless you're a complete idiot. Plus, you'd be better to do this than blow your engine up.
Their way of raising the boost pressure is fine for a few PSI. It keeps you in a "safe" area so you don't blow your engine up and blame them. Yeah, just use a MBC if you want more.
I can't find the video of me overboosting. But basically i hit like 20psi.
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