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Race Prep Miata race-only chat. 949 Racing - Rim & tires

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Old 03-12-2013, 05:11 PM   #61
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?? you run 205 Hoosier on your 9"
true that Hoosier heat cycles out too fast. that's why I will only use Hoosier selectively....
I'm still driving this car to and from the track so I need a track tire that lasts longer. I've also never run on a Hoosier so I assume I won't know how to use the tire. Basically, I need to start a business to make some money.
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Old 03-12-2013, 05:35 PM   #62
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Then run Toyo RRs. 9pt compound, easy to drive and setup, nearly as fast as R6, much faster than NT01, cheap. If you have any genuine competition, youre not going to win anything on NT01s
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Old 03-12-2013, 05:37 PM   #63
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Then run Toyo RRs. 9pt compound, easy to drive and setup, nearly as fast as R6, much faster than NT01, cheap. If you have any genuine competition, youre not going to win anything on NT01s
Will they fit on a 9?
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Old 03-12-2013, 05:38 PM   #64
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Will they fit on a 9?
Yarp
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Old 03-12-2013, 05:39 PM   #65
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Yarp
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Old 03-12-2013, 05:55 PM   #66
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Thoughts on me at 145whp running more weight at 2640 (from 2390)to get a TTE base class and the BFG rival? There's no way an OEM VVT engine is going to make more than 145whp, right?
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Old 03-12-2013, 06:00 PM   #67
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Go fast enough and they will spend plenty of time teching. I spent ~4hrs in tech at a regional race last year after outqualifying P2 by ~2sec. Weight, ~60 minutes on the dyno, and full engine bay and chassis inspection.
LOLZ

I had the fastest lap of the weekend in the dry in PTB. Quite a bit faster than the M3 that won TTB the previous year.

They dyno'd me twice. I was 60whp under the Power/Weight for PTB (not a dyno reclass car). I got weighed after every session, whoop-de-do.

After the national champ race they looked over my points sheet and sort of checked the dampers. It was the same for all of the PT podium finishers. It was a joke. This was the 2011 championships at Mid Ohio.

At the SCCA runoffs they tear your engine apart. I couldn't even enjoy my runoffs win because I was the lead/only mechanic for my car. I was the one tearing it down in tech. The car was in tech for hours and hours. At the runoffs, you're lucky if you get to drive your car back on the trailer. It's part of finishing in the top 5 and it's expected.

In 2012 they tore the hell out of the Mustang that won my class. Pulled the heads off, etc. etc. The guy basically had to pay for an engine rebuild because he won the runoffs.

In 2010 the A Sedan cars were still in tech 30 hours after the end of their race. The engines of the top five cars were torn down to every last nut and bolt and were placed on a table next to the car. Every part was measured and scrutinized. Some of those motors are $10-15k+

Finishing in the top 10 of Spec Miata at the runoffs almost guarantees you'll be rebuilding your car in the off-season.

I've lived SCCA and NASA tech. I'll tell you straight up, they are both a bit of a joke, but the NASA tech I saw was pathetic.
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Old 03-12-2013, 06:01 PM   #68
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Thoughts on me running more weight to get a TTE base class and the BFG rival?
If anything, I would go the other way. You lose 3pts on tire size by base classing TTE instead of TTD, so the "6" points you gain is really only 3, and I'd bet $10 the weight/power penalty for classing PTE* or ** isn't worth gaining those 3 points.
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Old 03-12-2013, 06:09 PM   #69
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If anything, I would go the other way. You lose 3pts on tire size by base classing TTE instead of TTD, so the "6" points you gain is really only 3, and I'd bet $10 the weight/power penalty for classing PTE* or ** isn't worth gaining those 3 points.
My car is base classed in TTE currently so even when I run in TTD, I still use the 235mm as my base tire.
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Old 03-12-2013, 07:07 PM   #70
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LOLZ

I had the fastest lap of the weekend in the dry in PTB. Quite a bit faster than the M3 that won TTB the previous year.

They dyno'd me twice. I was 60whp under the Power/Weight for PTB (not a dyno reclass car). I got weighed after every session, whoop-de-do.

After the national champ race they looked over my points sheet and sort of checked the dampers. It was the same for all of the PT podium finishers. It was a joke. This was the 2011 championships at Mid Ohio.

At the SCCA runoffs they tear your engine apart. I couldn't even enjoy my runoffs win because I was the lead/only mechanic for my car. I was the one tearing it down in tech. The car was in tech for hours and hours. At the runoffs, you're lucky if you get to drive your car back on the trailer. It's part of finishing in the top 5 and it's expected.

In 2012 they tore the hell out of the Mustang that won my class. Pulled the heads off, etc. etc. The guy basically had to pay for an engine rebuild because he won the runoffs.

In 2010 the A Sedan cars were still in tech 30 hours after the end of their race. The engines of the top five cars were torn down to every last nut and bolt and were placed on a table next to the car. Every part was measured and scrutinized. Some of those motors are $10-15k+

Finishing in the top 10 of Spec Miata at the runoffs almost guarantees you'll be rebuilding your car in the off-season.

I've lived SCCA and NASA tech. I'll tell you straight up, they are both a bit of a joke, but the NASA tech I saw was pathetic.
don't forget this is PT. not SM
Crusher and Rover were/are both dyno classed. so in reality, a lot less reason to tear down. you can do whatever you want to the engine, you can build the whole block out of titanium for all they care.

PT is basically power to weight ratio. so as long you dyno and weighed, there isn't much they need to tear down. of course, easiest way to cheat would probably be dual ECU map. but that's why they ran Traqmate in the cars (not sure how effective that is), not arguing there isn't a way to cheat, but it is less of an advantage with a PTE Miata to cheat than say a SM.

Last edited by bellwilliam; 03-12-2013 at 07:23 PM.
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Old 03-12-2013, 10:38 PM   #71
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you can do whatever you want to the engine, you can build the whole block out of titanium for all they care.

PT is basically power to weight ratio. so as long you dyno and weighed, there isn't much they need to tear down. of course, easiest way to cheat would probably be dual ECU map. but that's why they ran Traqmate in the cars (not sure how effective that is), not arguing there isn't a way to cheat, but it is less of an advantage with a PTE Miata to cheat than say a SM.
Can you do whatever you want to the engine? I'm not a PT rules know-it-all and certainly don't claim to be. Can you run a long-rod motor after a dyno reclass? Rules don't say you can do a long rod set-up so it's not allowed? That seems like a pretty easy way to cheat. Rules say you can do a balance and blueprint but aren't very specific. Does that mean you can run titanium con rods and berrylium pistons?

I understand the dyno re-class rules and that weighing and dyno'ing the cars is a pretty good way to police the class but there's a hundred ways to cheat up a chassis. Every PT car should be scrutinized strongly, especially over it's points sheet. Maybe a dyno reclass car should be scrutinized even more strictly over it's chassis, because the dyno result and weighing are an easy way to police the engine.

I've never seen a PT car properly scrutinized after a race win. I know every NASA region is different. I'm not trying to suggest that the SCCA is any better (though I will say Runoffs tech is tougher than NASA nat'ls tech) and even Grand AM scrutineering isn't that impressive.

Here's my beef. The team I race for is widely accused of having an unfair advantage because of who we are. Everyone thinks we cheat. Everyone thinks we get special parts that no one else could ever get. It's not true, our cars are 100% legal, all of them, from NASA PT to Grand AM. When you're racing a 100% legit car and you do well, you want the racing organization you're running with to strongly tech all of the cars. It legitimizes your success. I don't think NASA does a good job of scrutinizing at their "championship" event, I think it casts doubt on the results and it hurts the guys who are trying to play fair.

(In no way is this targeted at Emilio and Crusher. I appreciate that Crusher was under a magnifying glass for weeks before, and during last year's Nationals. Seems like every PT car should get that sort of attention, at least partially.)
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Old 03-12-2013, 11:25 PM   #72
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Can you do whatever you want to the engine? I'm not a PT rules know-it-all and certainly don't claim to be. Can you run a long-rod motor after a dyno reclass? Rules don't say you can do a long rod set-up so it's not allowed? That seems like a pretty easy way to cheat. Rules say you can do a balance and blueprint but aren't very specific. Does that mean you can run titanium con rods and berrylium pistons?
Yes. Dyno reclassing puts a power cap on your drivetrain, but within that power cap, you can do anything. Long-rod BP, K24/K20 Hybrid swap, supercharged LS1, Top Fuel dragster motor, whatever.

When the rules are open, there's not a lot of stuff to tech. If it puts up legal numbers on the dyno, legal numbers on the scales, and all the points-accruing mods are accounted for, what else is there to tech?
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Old 03-13-2013, 12:41 AM   #73
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Greg isn't dumb. . He has been asking to see dyno plot for turbo engines. So very likely, he will penalize you if you got a perfect dyno plot.

He gave me a Dyno class for my MSM. But yanked it last minute (literally last minute, my MSM ran exactly 15 minutes in practice before he delivers the bad news) thanks to Crusher. If you do some fancy swap / torque monster, he will just add weight.

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Old 03-13-2013, 01:01 AM   #74
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I also am not familiar with tech-ing chassis. It seems pretty straight forward. There isn't much to cheat on a PT cars. I am sure cheats are there, but this isn't like Spec Miata shocks that needs a shock dyno to catch a cheat. PT is pretty open, crappy raceland coilover is same 5 points as a gold plated XIDA.

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Old 03-18-2013, 05:38 PM   #75
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heard back from Greg. Dyno reclassing my '91 to a '94 adds 40 lbs. I get to (required) add the 1.8 brakes and chassis bracing but I think I'll probably hold of on this at this point.
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Old 03-18-2013, 05:41 PM   #76
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There's no way that the 1.8 bracing and brakes is worth the 40lb penalty.
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Old 03-18-2013, 05:52 PM   #77
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So there was a turbo TTD Miata at MSR-C this weekend who went 3-seconds under Eric Foss' old record and it made enough power to lay rubber in 3rd gear. Hmmmm.
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Old 03-18-2013, 06:13 PM   #78
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So there was a turbo TTD Miata at MSR-C this weekend who went 3-seconds under Eric Foss' old record and it made enough power to lay rubber in 3rd gear. Hmmmm.
Details?
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Old 03-18-2013, 06:34 PM   #79
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Details?
NA, C71s, non-stock shocks...and that's all I know. I was working flags my jaw hit the floor when I saw the time sheet. I remember when I was at 210whp/2380 in TTB (hp/lb limit).
If we just throw some numbers around here and use the TTD 14.25 lb/hp limit and assume that car weighed 2500lb it could make up to 175whp. However, that is rarely the case for Miatas as I was limited to 11.5 in TTB which has a max ratio of 10.2 (2420/210). Currently I'm limited to 16.4 in TTD which permits up to 14.25. So, if we take the 16.4 number which should be fairly consistent if no absolute since we both have NA Miatas in the same class, that car should be limited to 152whp if it weighs 2500lb with driver, it's highly likely that car is lighter.

I don't think a 152whp Miata can lay rubber in 3rd gear with 225 C71s. It was also his first day in TT and the car was way over 10* of YAW into my corner.
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Old 03-18-2013, 08:09 PM   #80
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Mad torks and/or open diff. I'm at 130hp and could roast a 205 R6 in 3rd gear with the open diff.
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