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I have noticed most of the top cars at the dragstrip use vacuum pumps to squeeze out a little more power. Not sure how frequent usage is among road race setups, but I have seen a few.
I have spent time researching various sources of pumps, and think I have settled on this one to be a good fit for our application and reasonable price.
The pump is from GZ Motorsports. They happen to have a kit that fits the Daimler Chrysler Eagle Talon and Eclipse using this pump. Think I am going for it, fabricating my own set up. What say you?
Yeah we use it in drag racing all of the time...5-10 percent more hp (usually 40+hp on a 500hp engine) and ring life and seal is greatly augmented. Most folks combine thinner lighter rings with a pump.
I have read other threads here on crank case ventilation, but yes a vacuum pump has crossed my mind...So has a dry sump. The BP series relies on significant spring pressure in the rings and a pump could never be considered a bad thing.
If you are running a 20K serious high HP high rev build....I would not hesitate!
However! For the cost of the pump, mounting system, and supporting hardware, you could probably pull the motor down, hone, re-ring and put it back together. Something to consider.
Short answer for me is probably not.
A dry sump has also crossed my mind, but in our budget that is not going to happen.
If you haven't been down this road before you need to be sure of what you are doing. 8-10 inches of vacuum is fine...Once you get in the 18-20 inch range the oil used to look after the wrist pin is gone and you have to have provisions for that. Anything else oiled via windage needs to be looked after and the Miata oil squirters and not known for their reliability. Max hp gains are normally above the 8000rpm range. A vacuum system reduces the total oil pressure....Plan accordingly.
Lastly: I have a lot of experience with pumps and dry sumps, but I know very little about the BP engine quirks.
Why not use a mustang cobra electric vacuum pump with racetronix wiring kit with an activation pressure of 2psi like all the turbo bimmer kids.
From my research, they don't produce enough vacuum to be worth the trouble.
Originally Posted by nbfather
Yeah we use it in drag racing all of the time...5-10 percent more hp (usually 40+hp on a 500hp engine) and ring life and seal is greatly augmented. Most folks combine thinner lighter rings with a pump.
I have read other threads here on crank case ventilation, but yes a vacuum pump has crossed my mind...So has a dry sump. The BP series relies on significant spring pressure in the rings and a pump could never be considered a bad thing.
If you are running a 20K serious high HP high rev build....I would not hesitate!
However! For the cost of the pump, mounting system, and supporting hardware, you could probably pull the motor down, hone, re-ring and put it back together. Something to consider.
Short answer for me is probably not.
A dry sump has also crossed my mind, but in our budget that is not going to happen.
If you haven't been down this road before you need to be sure of what you are doing. 8-10 inches of vacuum is fine...Once you get in the 18-20 inch range the oil used to look after the wrist pin is gone and you have to have provisions for that. Anything else oiled via windage needs to be looked after and the Miata oil squirters and not known for their reliability. Max hp gains are normally above the 8000rpm range. A vacuum system reduces the total oil pressure....Plan accordingly.
Lastly: I have a lot of experience with pumps and dry sumps, but I know very little about the BP engine quirks.
Hope that helps!
Jamie
It does help, and along the lines of what research I have done so far. 15 inches is about as much vacuum I would be willing to try according to what I have read. Still sorting out how to mount it, regulate it, and drive it.
Not sure if I should use a ginormous serpentine pulley on the pump and drive with the existing serpentine pulley on the balancer, or put the pulley mandrel that is available for my BHJ balancer, and run smaller gilmer pulleys. Apparently you run the pump between 60%-75% of engine speed. Right?
Last edited by miata2fast; 01-31-2017 at 05:57 PM.
60% normally works for a quarter mile....Would I drive it that fast lap after 7000 rpm lap...Not sure, but I'm thinking no.
You might be better served by a larger pump driven slower...I really don't know...Just giving you my thoughts.
If I were doing it I would talk to Peterson, Aviad, or somebody that does this stuff...perhaps GZ builds these pumps for road race?
That would be cool. Talk to them and find out.
First thing I would do after receiving the thing would be to pull it apart and have a good look at the bearings. Vac pumps normally cost more than this.
You also need to think about a high quality oil separator that has the capacity to deal with sucking oil in a high G corner...Oil choking the pump is likely very bad.
I have a lofty 1/4 mile goal with my build, and is one of the reasons I want to give it a try. As for road coarse track days, I was thinking of regulating it way down, or not driving the pump at all. I still need to go through training before going fast on a road coarse, so there is really no need to use it during track days for now. I started my car hobby drag racing.
The motor has just been assembled with all new rings, bearings, and Boundary race oil pump which was shimmed for more pressure. Its a pretty healthy motor which will be assisted with nitrous.
What are your plans suspension/traction? What are you hp goals?
I would install new oil squirters and drive the the pump hard..probably 75%. Size and shoot for 20inches of vacuum. If any oil gets in your combustion chamber nitrous will detonate it and....bad things!
Vacuum or pressure test the block....vacuum leaks are like turbo leaks...they kill everything you are trying to accomplish.
Are you running a dry mini fogger setup?
Keep an eye on those egts!!! If it was me I would have at least egt per cylinder and probably O2 per cylinder. One lean cylinder and your motor will be all over the track.
Nitrous is like a black widow woman dude...Sexy, fast, and bad a$$, but lean on her too hard and she will bite!
Been there, picked up sections of camshaft off the track!
My goal is around 400 whp on nitrous. My goal is to eventually run high 11's n/a, and 9's on nitrous. Not likely to happen with the current motor, but am using it as a step towards that goal. Search for my build thread.
I have hurt a few motors over the years on nitrous. Good times!
I have a GZ pump on my 1.9L IRTB 8500 RPM engine.
I purchased the pump, gears, and belt from GZ.
They suggest draining oil back to the oil pan - which I did, but I now route it to a catch can. In my case, there was no need to drain back to the oil pan, there simply is not enough oil into the pump to warrant the hassle.
You will need an intake restrictor somewhere on the valve cover - mine is where the breather tube normally goes.
I pull the vacuum from the intake side of the head, so the airflow through the stock baffles goes in the stock direction.
My valve cover is modified with an extra baffled area on the top of the intake cam side - it is basically a 3"x9"x3" aluminum box welded to the valve cover. It has an inspection window because the fabricator thought it would look cool. It looks OK.
You will need to drive the pump some how. This is what I did:
I run an external (electric) water pump.
A dummy OEM water pump is in place, opened up and cleaned out, with the impeller removed. I handed the OEM water pump pulley and GZ drive pulley to a machinist, to modify the GZ drive pulley to fit.
So the OEM WP pulley with (GZ pump drive gear attached) is driven by the crank with an OEM belt, and a gilmer belt (cogged belt) drives the vacuum pump. The pump is mounted in the area where the stock power steering pump would be.
It all works very well, and is a very clean install, with factory-like location and belt setup.
I suggest giving GZ a call. They were helpful when I called them (4-5 years ago, I think).
I have an electric water pump as well, but I already committed to using the factory water pump snout as the new outlet. I am pretty sure I'll be purchasing the gilmer arbor from BHJ and running the pump directly off the crank. I like your idea though, very clever. I would love to see a picture if you are inclined.
Thanks guys. I'll have to look back at my notes for the pressure #, and dig a bit for some pics - the fabrication shop likely has a bunch - he's obsessive about pics for documentation purposes. Car is away for the winter and after 6 seasons, the engine is being rebuilt. The back-up motor is in the car, pics of that might tell enough of the story. I'll see about snapping some new pics and/or posting some original pics and update this over the weekend.
01-31-2017, 01:16 PM
Vacuum Pump Thread
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