Dunning Kruger Affect

Thanks for the info Emilio!

The best way to figure out when tires start to fall off is to keep a logbook with ambient+track temperatures and laptimes. If you're just starting out, you can do a full year of track (4+ events) and autocross (8-10 events) on a set of summer tires and they'll still have a bit of stick to them, the tread might not though.

I budget every year for a set of summer tires because it's cheap fun. 15" wheels are awesome. (go look up a set of R-S3s/Rivals in 17")

greddygalant

iTrader: (3)

That's interesting to me I'm almost 3 seconds a lap faster on used SM RA1s vs fresh rivals. Same 205 size on a 15x8. This is around Portland International. I'm trying sm6 takeoffs for this year on a 15x8 again and see where that brings me.
As for required/budget I get free takeoffs all the time so I guess they fit my budget.

Savington

iTrader: (31)

Chalk it up to the weather, confidence, or any number of things. RA1s are slower than NT-01s. Rivals are essentially the same speed as NT-01s. Therefore, RA1s are slower than Rivals. They definitely aren't 3 seconds a lap faster.

robertcope

Rivals are the same speed as NT01s? I hate to question that, but I haven't seen it. I guess I also haven't seen the RR be much faster, if at all, than an NT01. I really wanted it to be. I don't have nearly the time on them that some of you do, though. Did you have to set the car up significantly differently to achieve that?

<shrug>

robert

dcamp2

iTrader: (4)

Thanks- I've been doing that... logging temperature, lap times, tire pressure, feel etc. I think I'm at the point of falling off though, I've got 5 HDPE's (25- 20 min sessions) on my RS3's and they seem to be slowing down a little... That about right?

Dunning Kruger Affect

They're going to start falling off, but it'll still be decently quick. I have 30 25-minute sessions and probably 40 50+ second autocross runs on my current set of R-S3s. I didn't flip them, so the tread isn't looking too confident in the rain, but they still stick when warmed up (including a 35F day at VIR-F).

I'll use them on the street until I order Rivals for this upcoming year (planning 6+ DEs and autox).

Seefo

iTrader: (5)

is this a comparison of 205 NT01 vs. 205 RC1 or 225 NT01 vs 205 RC1s? Or did you get to test the 225 RC1s?

Savington

iTrader: (31)

Car setup changes when moving between tires are a given. At minimum, pressure and small camber tweaks based on pyrometer data.

Rivals produce the same peak lateral Gs as the NT-01, same as the RS-3. They beat the RS-3 on braking and accel grip. Fresh NT-01 to fresh Rival, we're talking a couple of tenths in either direction. A little wind or a 10deg change in track temp and the difference is 0, so it's a hard A-B test to do.

RRs are much faster than NT-01s. They also get set up way differently - massively different tire pressure, different camber settings. If you offered me 225 NT-01s or 205 RRs for a race, I'd take the RRs every time.

emilio700

iTrader: (3)

?

If I compare two anythings (header, lubricants, cam, tire, wing, pizza) on a public forum without any disclaimers, you can assume controlled or semi-controlled conditions with comparable variants. Too many people around the world use the results I publish to make "informed" decisions. To publish anything else without disclaimers would be really irresponsible and it's just not my style.

So no, this isn't 225/45 NT01's on 9's on someone else car in winter against my car on 205 RC-1's on 8's in summer. Same everything except the tire model. I'm also including Maxxis own internal tire testing data that was shared with me.

robertcope

Sure, that's a given. I guess I should have asked "are there any 'massive' changes needed"? Like, to make the RR work, did you have to add another 1.5* of camber or was it pretty close to the NT-01 setup? Obviously, "your results may vary", but I'm interested in your experience, since we're talking about it.

I've run them back to back with only air pressure changes and my data shows nearly identical grip. Maybe I'm just just running the "NT-01 programming" and not driving the hard enough, that's certainly a possibility. It's been six months since I've been on track and don't have my tire temp notes with me or I'd post that data, but I don't recall it being massively out off where I'd want it.

I am planning to do more testing in a few weeks, I guess I should just wait until then to ask more questions. Thanks for the information,

robert

Dunning Kruger Affect

What about on the moon? :P

This is all fantastic data, guys. I'm particularly excited about the Toyo RR coming out in 225/45R15. It's pretty amazing that the tire options have opened up dramatically in the past few years.

Seefo

iTrader: (5)

thanks for clarifying. Don't be a dick.

emilio700

iTrader: (3)

You're welcome. Glad the information we provide for free is of some use

EricJ

What about rain tires?

emilio700

iTrader: (3)

Hoosier H20 2:00
Toyo RA-1 +:03
Toyo R888 +:04
Everything else + :06

WAM

Any reliable news on 245/40-15 RS-3 or Rival? I need TW140, max 23" for open/street autox.

Lincoln Logs

iTrader: (1)

While we're discussing the merits of the Rivals, what do you think the NT-01/RC-1 offers over the Rival given that they have similar lateral grip?

z31maniac

So for HPDE (and non-serious TT) folks, is there any compelling reason to pick the NT-01 over the Rival?

I'm currently on R888s since they were so cheap.

Dunning Kruger Affect

Better braking and acceleration grip.

emilio700

iTrader: (3)

Excellent question. Not being a tire engineer I can only guess, but I suspect the compounds used in the Rival and RC-1 are not too far apart in performance properties. The big difference being tread pattern (or lack thereof). In practice, the RC-1, as you would expect, behaves better when it's at it's grip and temp thresholds. Thick tread is not conducive to good steering response, thermal rejection or ultimate grip.

The RC-1 is a purpose built HPDE tire, probably the best on the US market today. The Rival is a dual duty tire, also probably the best on the US market today in it's category. Decide which fits your usage.