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Old 01-07-2014, 12:29 AM   #41
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Thanks for the info Emilio!

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Originally Posted by dcamp2 View Post
Great info in here for a track noob like myself...


Any more info on heat cycling would be good as well- specifically how long they last or when they start to fall off would be helpful to know. Maybe included in the first post alongside the time differential?
The best way to figure out when tires start to fall off is to keep a logbook with ambient+track temperatures and laptimes. If you're just starting out, you can do a full year of track (4+ events) and autocross (8-10 events) on a set of summer tires and they'll still have a bit of stick to them, the tread might not though.

I budget every year for a set of summer tires because it's cheap fun. 15" wheels are awesome. (go look up a set of R-S3s/Rivals in 17")
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Old 01-07-2014, 02:24 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Slower than Rivals. If you're still running RA1s and you aren't required to by your ruleset or budget, you need to evaluate your life choices
That's interesting to me I'm almost 3 seconds a lap faster on used SM RA1s vs fresh rivals. Same 205 size on a 15x8. This is around Portland International. I'm trying sm6 takeoffs for this year on a 15x8 again and see where that brings me.
As for required/budget I get free takeoffs all the time so I guess they fit my budget.
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Old 01-07-2014, 03:26 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greddygalant View Post
That's interesting to me I'm almost 3 seconds a lap faster on used SM RA1s vs fresh rivals. Same 205 size on a 15x8. This is around Portland International. I'm trying sm6 takeoffs for this year on a 15x8 again and see where that brings me.
As for required/budget I get free takeoffs all the time so I guess they fit my budget.
Chalk it up to the weather, confidence, or any number of things. RA1s are slower than NT-01s. Rivals are essentially the same speed as NT-01s. Therefore, RA1s are slower than Rivals. They definitely aren't 3 seconds a lap faster.
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Old 01-07-2014, 06:45 AM   #44
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Rivals are the same speed as NT01s? I hate to question that, but I haven't seen it. I guess I also haven't seen the RR be much faster, if at all, than an NT01. I really wanted it to be. I don't have nearly the time on them that some of you do, though. Did you have to set the car up significantly differently to achieve that?

<shrug>

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Old 01-07-2014, 11:50 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunning Kruger Affect View Post
Thanks for the info Emilio!



The best way to figure out when tires start to fall off is to keep a logbook with ambient+track temperatures and laptimes. If you're just starting out, you can do a full year of track (4+ events) and autocross (8-10 events) on a set of summer tires and they'll still have a bit of stick to them, the tread might not though.

I budget every year for a set of summer tires because it's cheap fun. 15" wheels are awesome. (go look up a set of R-S3s/Rivals in 17")
Thanks- I've been doing that... logging temperature, lap times, tire pressure, feel etc. I think I'm at the point of falling off though, I've got 5 HDPE's (25- 20 min sessions) on my RS3's and they seem to be slowing down a little... That about right?
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Old 01-07-2014, 12:16 PM   #46
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They're going to start falling off, but it'll still be decently quick. I have 30 25-minute sessions and probably 40 50+ second autocross runs on my current set of R-S3s. I didn't flip them, so the tread isn't looking too confident in the rain, but they still stick when warmed up (including a 35F day at VIR-F).

I'll use them on the street until I order Rivals for this upcoming year (planning 6+ DEs and autox).
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Old 01-07-2014, 07:24 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
Varies depending on the car and weather. At worst, they're equal. Cooler weather and/or heavier car, the RC-1's are faster. On our light Miatas, we need to have track temps under about 90* for the RC-1's to really out pace the NT01's. The RC-1's do last longer and steer better. That's saying a lot because the NT01's steer well for a hard compound HPDE level tire.

None of the Socal Miata HPDE crew but NT01's any longer.

The chart looks pretty accurate to me except I would put the Rivals and RS-3's on the same line. The Rivals are just easier to drive and last longer. Setup can be off a bit and still be fast with Rivals. RS-3's require a closer to optimum setup for the car to feel good. This is largely because you can bulldog a poorly setup car on Rivals into rotating without scrubbing too much speed. Exact same input/entry speed with RS-3's on the same car and you're farming.
is this a comparison of 205 NT01 vs. 205 RC1 or 225 NT01 vs 205 RC1s? Or did you get to test the 225 RC1s?
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Old 01-08-2014, 02:31 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertcope View Post
Rivals are the same speed as NT01s? I hate to question that, but I haven't seen it. I guess I also haven't seen the RR be much faster, if at all, than an NT01. I really wanted it to be. I don't have nearly the time on them that some of you do, though. Did you have to set the car up significantly differently to achieve that?
Car setup changes when moving between tires are a given. At minimum, pressure and small camber tweaks based on pyrometer data.

Rivals produce the same peak lateral Gs as the NT-01, same as the RS-3. They beat the RS-3 on braking and accel grip. Fresh NT-01 to fresh Rival, we're talking a couple of tenths in either direction. A little wind or a 10deg change in track temp and the difference is 0, so it's a hard A-B test to do.

RRs are much faster than NT-01s. They also get set up way differently - massively different tire pressure, different camber settings. If you offered me 225 NT-01s or 205 RRs for a race, I'd take the RRs every time.
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Old 01-08-2014, 02:42 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Track View Post
is this a comparison of 205 NT01 vs. 205 RC1 or 225 NT01 vs 205 RC1s? Or did you get to test the 225 RC1s?
?

If I compare two anythings (header, lubricants, cam, tire, wing, pizza) on a public forum without any disclaimers, you can assume controlled or semi-controlled conditions with comparable variants. Too many people around the world use the results I publish to make "informed" decisions. To publish anything else without disclaimers would be really irresponsible and it's just not my style.

So no, this isn't 225/45 NT01's on 9's on someone else car in winter against my car on 205 RC-1's on 8's in summer. Same everything except the tire model. I'm also including Maxxis own internal tire testing data that was shared with me.
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Old 01-08-2014, 02:47 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Car setup changes when moving between tires are a given. At minimum, pressure and small camber tweaks based on pyrometer data.

RRs are much faster than NT-01s. They also get set up way differently - massively different tire pressure, different camber settings. If you offered me 225 NT-01s or 205 RRs for a race, I'd take the RRs every time.
Sure, that's a given. I guess I should have asked "are there any 'massive' changes needed"? Like, to make the RR work, did you have to add another 1.5* of camber or was it pretty close to the NT-01 setup? Obviously, "your results may vary", but I'm interested in your experience, since we're talking about it.

I've run them back to back with only air pressure changes and my data shows nearly identical grip. Maybe I'm just just running the "NT-01 programming" and not driving the hard enough, that's certainly a possibility. It's been six months since I've been on track and don't have my tire temp notes with me or I'd post that data, but I don't recall it being massively out off where I'd want it.

I am planning to do more testing in a few weeks, I guess I should just wait until then to ask more questions. Thanks for the information,

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Old 01-08-2014, 02:49 PM   #51
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What about on the moon? :P

This is all fantastic data, guys. I'm particularly excited about the Toyo RR coming out in 225/45R15. It's pretty amazing that the tire options have opened up dramatically in the past few years.
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Old 01-08-2014, 04:43 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
?

If I compare two anythings (header, lubricants, cam, tire, wing, pizza) on a public forum without any disclaimers, you can assume controlled or semi-controlled conditions with comparable variants. Too many people around the world use the results I publish to make "informed" decisions. To publish anything else without disclaimers would be really irresponsible and it's just not my style.

So no, this isn't 225/45 NT01's on 9's on someone else car in winter against my car on 205 RC-1's on 8's in summer. Same everything except the tire model. I'm also including Maxxis own internal tire testing data that was shared with me.

thanks for clarifying.
Don't be a dick.
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Old 01-08-2014, 09:45 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Track View Post

thanks for clarifying.
Don't be a dick.
You're welcome. Glad the information we provide for free is of some use
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Old 01-09-2014, 11:12 AM   #54
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What about rain tires?
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Old 01-09-2014, 01:25 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricJ View Post
What about rain tires?
Hoosier H20 2:00
Toyo RA-1 +:03
Toyo R888 +:04
Everything else + :06
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Old 01-09-2014, 03:31 PM   #56
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Any reliable news on 245/40-15 RS-3 or Rival? I need TW140, max 23" for open/street autox.
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Old 01-09-2014, 04:13 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Rivals produce the same peak lateral Gs as the NT-01, same as the RS-3. They beat the RS-3 on braking and accel grip. Fresh NT-01 to fresh Rival, we're talking a couple of tenths in either direction. A little wind or a 10deg change in track temp and the difference is 0, so it's a hard A-B test to do.
While we're discussing the merits of the Rivals, what do you think the NT-01/RC-1 offers over the Rival given that they have similar lateral grip?
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Old 01-09-2014, 04:19 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Rivals produce the same peak lateral Gs as the NT-01, same as the RS-3. They beat the RS-3 on braking and accel grip. Fresh NT-01 to fresh Rival, we're talking a couple of tenths in either direction. A little wind or a 10deg change in track temp and the difference is 0, so it's a hard A-B test to do.
So for HPDE (and non-serious TT) folks, is there any compelling reason to pick the NT-01 over the Rival?

I'm currently on R888s since they were so cheap.
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Old 01-09-2014, 04:46 PM   #59
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Better braking and acceleration grip.
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Old 01-09-2014, 05:44 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rokomis View Post
While we're discussing the merits of the Rivals, what do you think the NT-01/RC-1 offers over the Rival given that they have similar lateral grip?
Excellent question. Not being a tire engineer I can only guess, but I suspect the compounds used in the Rival and RC-1 are not too far apart in performance properties. The big difference being tread pattern (or lack thereof). In practice, the RC-1, as you would expect, behaves better when it's at it's grip and temp thresholds. Thick tread is not conducive to good steering response, thermal rejection or ultimate grip.

The RC-1 is a purpose built HPDE tire, probably the best on the US market today. The Rival is a dual duty tire, also probably the best on the US market today in it's category. Decide which fits your usage.
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