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Old 04-29-2014, 05:09 PM   #101
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Well... whether you revalve or not, you're still going to be using the $18/corner bumpstops that we're using.
Hell no, I'll be using $6/corner Honda OEM bumpstops. How rich do you think I am?

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I'm unsure what sort of logic fallacy shows that a revalve makes the other fun toys un-useful.
I never said that.

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According to Penske information as of ca. 15 years ago, the twisting force from the spring causes a sideways force on the piston that increases hysteresis of the shock.
I can't see how the twisting force of the spring could be transferred to the rod or piston. The top mount is firmly attached to the chassis and the body is firmly attached to the A-arm.
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Old 04-29-2014, 05:11 PM   #102
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If they're bound, they won't twist. But I'm not saying it's a bad idea to use thrust bearings. I'm just not convinced that they're necessary (all reports seem to indicate otherwise), and by the time you add up all the thrust bearings and spring isolators and spherical mounts and helper springs and $30/corner bumpstops and other cool **** that it would be awesome to have, you're squarely in "should have gotten a revalve instead" territory. And if you pay for a revalve as well, you're creeping into "should have just bought Xidas and been done with it" territory. What's the fascination with spending more money than necessary on something that's interesting because it's comparatively cheap?
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I never said that.

Maybe so, but you DID quite clearly say to do one instead of the other.

My viewpoint is: Why not both?
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Old 04-29-2014, 05:20 PM   #103
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Maybe so, but you DID quite clearly say to do one instead of the other.

My viewpoint is: Why not both?
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If they're bound, they won't twist. But I'm not saying it's a bad idea to use thrust bearings. I'm just not convinced that they're necessary (all reports seem to indicate otherwise), and by the time you add up all the thrust bearings and spring isolators and spherical mounts and helper springs and $30/corner bumpstops and other cool **** that it would be awesome to have, you're squarely in "should have gotten a revalve instead" territory. And if you pay for a revalve as well, you're creeping into "should have just bought Xidas and been done with it" territory. What's the fascination with spending more money than necessary on something that's interesting because it's comparatively cheap?
Because you're entering a price point above poverty tier and now you have real competition, not Koni, V-Maxx, and Raceland.
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Old 04-29-2014, 05:28 PM   #104
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Because you're entering a price point above poverty tier and now you have real competition, not Koni, V-Maxx, and Raceland.

Let me know when Xidas end up under $1200.


Also let me know when the fun things don't improve a sub-$400 stock valved Bilstein setup. It's pretty plain just from the beginning of the thread that there's a few different tiers of poverty. We'll call the revalved poverty setup "Hood Rich" if you'd like.
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Old 04-29-2014, 05:43 PM   #105
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Let me know when Xidas end up under $1200.
Let me know when it's possible to save up for a couple of months. Xidas don't have to be cheaper, they just have to be a better value at a price that's not so high that it's an unreasonable stretch from what's being discussed. Apparently they're held in such high regard here that the response to "HAI GUISE I HAVE $800 SHUD I BUY VMAXXXXXXES OR ILLUMINAS" is always "Save up and buy Xidas." Hell, I got wrecked in the other thread just for suggesting that revalved Bilsteins could be 90% of what Xidas are in terms of damping, not even factoring in Xidas' construction and adjustability advantages.
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Old 04-29-2014, 05:46 PM   #106
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Let me know when it's possible to save up for a couple of months. Xidas don't have to be cheaper, they just have to be a better value at a price that's not so high that it's an unreasonable stretch from what's being discussed. Apparently they're held in such high regard here that the response to "HAI GUISE I HAVE $800 SHUD I BUY VMAXXXXXXES OR ILLUMINAS" is always "Save up and buy Xidas." Hell, I got wrecked in the other thread just for suggesting that revalved Bilsteins could be 90% of what Xidas are in terms of damping, not even factoring in Xidas' construction and adjustability advantages.

Jesus you're worse than Leafy.

Everyone who buys a car can afford Xidas, eventually.

You've completely missed the context of the "Shut your ******* face and buy Xidas" posts.

Myself? I get a boner from using old **** that nobody wants anymore and going fast on it. Seriously. This thread gave me a hole in my jeans.
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Old 04-29-2014, 06:19 PM   #107
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Myself? I get a boner from using old **** that nobody wants anymore and going fast on it. Seriously. This thread gave me a hole in my jeans.
Now this I can get behind. I love me some LeMons engineering.
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Old 05-19-2014, 05:20 PM   #108
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Default Extended top hats with MSM Coilover on an NB.

Somewhat relevant...

I'm finishing up my 'ghetto' coilovers basically following along with the thread.

I know the MSM shock bodies are a bit longer (3/8" in the front) and somewhere I seem to remember a longer stroke but for the life of me can't find anything relevant anymore.

So my questions, given that I have a NB (2000); Is there any benefit to using extended top hats, a. in the back, b. all four and if so what length (I know they don't affect ride height)?

I have an older set of FCM bump stops (OK, not quite so much ghetto) so if running extended top hats would you run same length pushed up into the top hats or shim them back down to normal position relative to the spring seat?

Thanks.
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Old 05-21-2014, 12:26 PM   #109
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So we do have a lot of shock options for this.
Hard-S -140/shock
Sport- 90/shock
MSM- 140/shock
Aftermarket HD- 102/shock
Aftermarket sport 102/shock

So the MSM should be the longest right? Are the stock sports and the aftermarket HDs the same? Are the HD and amSport the same besides body length? Looking at pretty graphs.

Aftermarket Sport/HD vs NA HD (according to the post by shaik that I stole this from aftermarket HD have the same valving as the am Sports but the sports have a 1" shorter rod)


Here's the best msm one I can find.


Hard-S vs aftermarket


I cant find anything for the normal stock sport ones, unless the sport ones mazda shows on their site are just aftermarket sports and I have the dumb. Also havent found hard-s front.

EDIT: Found sports, they they cyan color on this stupid unit graph.
Attached Thumbnails
The Better Bilstein Ebay Coilover Thread-oe_nb_showa_vs_oe_bilstein_msm1.gif  

Last edited by Leafy; 05-21-2014 at 01:43 PM.
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Old 05-21-2014, 01:21 PM   #110
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^^ Leafy

Not sure who/what you're replying to but assuming it's about my post re top hats....

FCM chart showing shock body lengths;

Front: http://fatcatmotorsports.com/igaller...ck_lengths.JPG

Rear: http://fatcatmotorsports.com/igaller...ck_lengths.JPG

So, this is what I took my reference from. On an NB, the rear is the same but the front is 3/8" longer (MSM vs OE).
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Old 05-21-2014, 01:35 PM   #111
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Not really as concerned with length, I'm more concerned about which valving is the best. I really want to see sport package shocks and front Hard-S shocks. Its looking like the Hard-S are the best for the rears, followed by the normal NB HD.

I just found a graph with NB sport package shocks, doing some quick conversion math then realizing the graph has rebound on top it looks like NB sport package shocks have the same valving as NB HDs.

Last edited by Leafy; 05-21-2014 at 01:46 PM.
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Old 05-21-2014, 01:45 PM   #112
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Bilstein sports and HDs are not the same body length. Sports & MSM shocks are pretty close. there is a thread with a excel graph listing all the common shocks (not limited to bilsteins). It would be nice if people meausred their Bilsteins to confirm these numbers as I think they are old.

my ordering (longest to shortest):
1) MSM/NB Sports
2) HDs
3) NA Hard S

I don't know where you are getting Aftermarket Sports vs. sports. I don't think there is any other option than the aftermarket?

I just sold my Bilstein setup, very similar to stuff here. glad you guys made a guide on this, it took me months to collect all the needed info and even then its not half as "nice" as the setups I am seeing in this thread!
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Old 05-21-2014, 01:49 PM   #113
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Aftermarket Sport vs Sport suspension package (non Hard-S). Look like the same damping.
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Old 05-21-2014, 01:52 PM   #114
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Aftermarket Sport vs Sport suspension package (non Hard-S). Look like the same damping.
I think...
sport suspension is still showas. the only difference between base suspension and sport suspension (not the Hard-S) was the wheel & tire size.
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Old 05-21-2014, 01:52 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
Not really as concerned with length, I'm more concerned about which valving is the best. I really want to see sport package shocks and front Hard-S shocks. Its looking like the Hard-S are the best for the rears, followed by the normal NB HD.
So this is relevant to my question about top hats on an NB how? Trying to follow the logic.
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Old 05-21-2014, 01:57 PM   #116
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So this is relevant to my question about top hats on an NB how? Trying to follow the logic.
It isnt at all this is a general thread about budget coilovers using bilstein shocks and I never quoted or referred to your question, so eat a dick.

Track, the shocks listed as "normal susp" have a different part number than the shocks listed as "sport susp", but cost the same. So maybe they're both showas with different valving?
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Old 05-21-2014, 02:09 PM   #117
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It isnt at all this is a general thread about budget coilovers using bilstein shocks and I never quoted or referred to your question, so eat a dick.
Touchy today? Easier to say "no relevance" but WTF ...
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Old 05-21-2014, 02:37 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
It isnt at all this is a general thread about budget coilovers using bilstein shocks and I never quoted or referred to your question, so eat a dick.

Track, the shocks listed as "normal susp" have a different part number than the shocks listed as "sport susp", but cost the same. So maybe they're both showas with different valving?
very interesting...Now this I would like to know more about...

mazdaspeed dev has a number of shocks available...but only two mention normal/sport suspension for the 99:
34-700 NC10-34-700C DAMPER, FRT $81.44
(NOR. SUSP>W/O A. LOCK BRAKE) (SPORT SUSP>W/O A. LOCK BRAKE)

34-700 NC14-34-700C DAMPER, FRT $81.44
(NOR. SUSP>W/A. LOCK BRAKE) (SPORT SUSP>W/A. LOCK BRAKE)

this indicates to me the same shock for both sport/normal, difference being ABS/no ABS (sensor wire bracket).

Also, interestingly they have two shocks for HARD S, but these are different in price and one was ended in 99. That's probably an update from Bilstein I would think.
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Old 05-21-2014, 02:38 PM   #119
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Interesting again. I was only looking at the rear shocks because that one is easier to click onto than the front shocks.
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Old 05-21-2014, 03:24 PM   #120
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To bahurd:
Check out this thread: http://m.miataturbo.net/showthread.php?t=79066

You'll probably need deeper top hats with MSM shocks, but you'll have to measure your own car to see just how deep. Conventional knowledge seems to dictate that you want as much bump travel as you can get, with at least 1/3 of your shock's total stroke reserved as droop.

To Leafy:
Stock valving may not be a huge deal. I've been looking at this Shim Restackor program for a while, and it seems like it could be just what we need to make revalving a DIY thing. Total cost of a revalve should be like $20/corner as long as you stick with the stock piston.

Unfortunately I just can't bring myself to spend $75 on something with no guarantee that it's even relevant to my application. Perhaps some adventurous soul in this thread would like to pave the way for the rest of us?
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