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Old 04-10-2009, 11:23 PM   #1
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Default Master Trim (fuel)

I'm ready to start the car for the first time after installing the new injectors. I have input new cranking fuel numbers that I received from Travis, as cranking fuel is separate from running fuel and can't be trimmed out.

Travis suggested using master trim to see how much fuel (time) I need to remove from my stock injector map to start up and run on the 600cc injectors. I don't know if +trim munbers trim by that percentage or negative trim numbers remove that percentage. I'm guessing subtracting 60-62% of the base map will get me close, 260 vs 600 cc) but is that -60 master trim or +60 master trim?

Also, I don't understand dead time correction and how to find the values to change it to for the new injectors. I assume that I will have to do this before I can tune the car on the new injectors, but will the base map be close enough to get it going?
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Old 04-10-2009, 11:28 PM   #2
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I still havent heard back from Travis....I guess I'll just wait till you guys figure it out and then copycat lol
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Old 04-10-2009, 11:39 PM   #3
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Alright I got this running pretty well. I'm sending the file over to Stein and Vlad. As soon as we get confirmation on everything I'll put it up on the website, and officially offer the injectors on the website.
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Old 04-10-2009, 11:42 PM   #4
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OK, I'm in the shop and online, so as soon as I get it I will install and try to start it. So, trim - or trim + to remove fuel?
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Old 04-10-2009, 11:48 PM   #5
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sweet
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Old 04-10-2009, 11:51 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
sweet

While we are waiting, it made me think of the carb thread today. Back then it was trial and error, wive's tales, tons of jets, blown motors, tons of time invested.

Now, we are on the internet in the shop, receiving tuning maps in emails, loading them into the ECU in a few seconds and rolling. If there is a problem, you post it on the forum and within minutes you have an answer, or if it works, everyone knows at that moment. If I had a webcam, everyone interested could be watching me do it real time for the ultimate win!

We've come a long way.

EDIT:

While typing my blackberry went off saying that I got a new email. What do you know? New map from Travis.
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Old 04-10-2009, 11:54 PM   #7
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Your accel enrich is way off by the way stein. Needs a bump! 17.5 on rapid transitions.
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Old 04-11-2009, 12:08 AM   #8
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Well, no go. Killed my battery trying to start it. I know that my fuel rail was empty when I went into this. Not sure if this is the cause and it's still trying to meter out trapped air, but it never even popped.

I had run the fuel pump for five minutes checking for leaks the other day per the 99 service manual, but on a returnless system, wouldn't it just trap the air that's in the fuel rail?

Charger is on the car-will try again tomorrow. If anyone has any suggestions, please let me know.
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Old 04-11-2009, 12:11 AM   #9
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Whats the temperature there? It started reliably, fast, and idled flat. I can't imagine what is different.
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Old 04-11-2009, 12:11 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisR View Post
Your accel enrich is way off by the way stein. Needs a bump! 17.5 on rapid transitions.

?

Where is that? I just went through the tabs and didn't see it.

Also, did you address the dead time correction on the new map?

I just loaded the updated map and tried to run with it.
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Old 04-11-2009, 12:13 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisR View Post
Whats the temperature there? It started reliably, fast, and idled flat. I can't imagine what is different.
Shop is 64* and has been this warm for a couple of hours so the car should be soaked at that temp - maybe a few degrees cooler.

What is different is that I just installed the injectors and the car didn't have any fuel in the rail or the injectors, I would suspect. All I did from before is swap the injectors. Is there a priming procedure? At least the NA's have a return so they would at least fill the fuel rail with fuel.
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Old 04-11-2009, 12:13 AM   #12
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ARG! Give me a second that didn't make it onto the NBcrankingmap. Had two files.
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Old 04-11-2009, 12:18 AM   #13
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Dead times updated, new map sent.
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Old 04-11-2009, 12:21 AM   #14
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There isn't a priming procedure that I know of, you could set the current cranking temperature time to something like 150 until you smell fuel.

Transient stuff is located over at the corrections tab.
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Old 04-11-2009, 12:34 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stein View Post
While we are waiting, it made me think of the carb thread today. Back then it was trial and error, wive's tales, tons of jets, blown motors, tons of time invested.

Now, we are on the internet in the shop, receiving tuning maps in emails, loading them into the ECU in a few seconds and rolling. If there is a problem, you post it on the forum and within minutes you have an answer, or if it works, everyone knows at that moment. If I had a webcam, everyone interested could be watching me do it real time for the ultimate win!

We've come a long way.

EDIT:

While typing my blackberry went off saying that I got a new email. What do you know? New map from Travis.
Dude I cant agree more
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Old 04-11-2009, 12:41 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisR View Post
you could set the current cranking temperature time to something like 150 until you smell fuel.
Reloaded the new map.

Changed cranking fuel as above. Got it to start. It fired right away, so I probably was only a couple of cranks from getting fuel to the injectors anyway.

Changed cranking fuel back to normal and it started again. After it started AFR's dropped steadily from 15.5 to 10 (probably lower) over the course of 8-10 seconds. Idle was bouncing between 1000-1300 and back every second. It's too late and the car is too loud to be tuning now as my wife has gone to bed, so I will be back on it tomorrow. It was super rich, though. The shop was filled with fuel smoke in that 10 seconds.

Travis:

Why did you change the fuel maps to the same levels all the way across? Wouldn't it have been closer to finished by scaling the current map?
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Old 04-11-2009, 01:06 AM   #17
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Those maps did not look right to me at all. They shouldn't have been shaped like that. You can master trim it back a little bit if its too rich.
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Old 04-11-2009, 01:32 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisR View Post
Those maps did not look right to me at all. They shouldn't have been shaped like that. You can master trim it back a little bit if its too rich.
Hmmm, that was my autotuned map to target AFR. AFR's looked good when driving all across the band.

As an exercise, I tried to make sure to transfer every single item on your new map in the corrections tab to my original map, cell by cell. I'm going to try to run that map tomorrow, trimmed to -58 to see if it is close. The lumps at the beginning were me trying to tune out the tip in problem. I'll knock them down if needed tomorrow. If it doesn't work at all, I'll reload your map and go from there.
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Old 04-11-2009, 02:44 AM   #19
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Guys, injector dead time is specific to the injectors.

This is important because the ECU uses this value as a known fudge for injector response time. When you want 5ms of fuel from an injector with a .75ms dead time, you only want to send a 4.25ms pulse.

Article:
Yaw Power Products / Injector Dead Times Explained

Call the mfgr before you do much fine tuning if you can.
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Old 04-11-2009, 10:57 AM   #20
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I've got it for the deatschworks injectors, though we are running them in peak-hold instead of standard saturation. I would think regaurdless the curve would be proportional though.
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