Really high idle
 

After changing to the new water temp calibration, I retuned my idle settings and calibrated my tps today. After a short drive, in the middle of the drive it stopped cutting fuel during deceleration and the idle rpms shot up to 2500-3000 rpms. I checked for leaks with brake cleaner and didn't find anything. I tried my old map and the idle was still high. I also checked to see if the throttle was stuck open and it wasn't.

I am including the log of the run and map. If there is anything you see that stands out please let me know. I'm not sure yet how to read it to make sure everything is working properly.

One thing I noticed about this log over others with no idle issue is that the idle position is reading a lot lower than supposed too (10-14). In the settings based on water temperature it is supposed to be reading around 60. Can anyone help me on this?

I haven't had any issues with the new water temp calibration #'s. Your high and low coolant enrichment maps look way different than mine. Throttle off over-run min temp is set to 127c which you may never reach. You might want to change your overboost protection as needed. I was told it's safest to cut both ignition and fuel.

Thanks for checking sv650,
The throttle off and overboost protection settings were in the base map and I haven't gotten around to changing them until now. I lowered the temperature to 115c, but I'm not sure what throttle off over-run is meant for. I also lowered the overboost protection from 250 to 190. I haven't calibrated the map yet.

Without changing or fixing anything the idle all of a sudden is back to normal.

Over-run cuts fuel when you're completely off the throttle (coasting, but still in gear, like downhill or slowing for a stop light). It's to help fuel economy, the stock ECU does this...

I just enabled mine today.

RPM lower = 1400
RPM upper = 1500
Min water temp = 60*
Time delay (changed mine to 250ms)
Only when in gear (checked)
Not when A/C on (un-checked) <- I'll see how this works in 6 months when it gets warm again...

Works great. I don't feel a difference at all, but AFR goes full lean on throttle off now. Might as well save some gas...

Check your open loop warmup idle settings too.

fyi - i think these originally came from y8s

Attachment 201105

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I had the same problem after working with a fellow member here on my car. Idle was great most of the time but then would out of the blue shoot to 4k...

anyhow, I flashed the FW once more and the problem went away...

Now I just have to figure out why my car idles with 60-80kpa of load now... no leaks; but at idle she pulls a hella lot of load. If I decel, the vacuum goes to normal... so I gotta figure this out...

Cheers,
Matt

Today I had a whole new issue where my idle started to hunt badly at start up and is now reading 43kpa at idle when before it was around 33. It through off my whole fuel map and transient throttle settings. Right now I'm retuning the idle settings but can't get it to idle like before in closed loop.

Thanks SV650,
I don't want to use anyone else's settings yet since changing one setting makes me have to back track and fix everything I've done to get the car running.

Are you road tuning your car?

Rapid learn or tuning while driving? I have been tuning based based on logs as of now.

Aren't the high settings supposed to be +10 of the low settings?

Prospero,

Upload a log please!

OK I looked this over...

dont worry about the throttle off overrun. setting it to 127 just turns it off.

What's weird on your logs is that your idle is always 10-14 when driving or otherwise. It doesn't appear to be doing anything at all.

Another thing I notice is the Aux Out is set to 1kHz and should be 500Hz. 1k might be too fast for the valve.

So with that datalog showing your idle value stuck at 10, I have to wonder if the idle screw is open too far. That means the idle controller is constantly trying to close down the valve and hangs out at the minimum value all the time.

Here's a way to try and set it properly:

1. Warm up the car completely.
2. Set your P, I, and D to zero so you're in open loop. (your car might rev high depending on the open loop effort settings... you may want to set all those around 90+/- to "10" to help).
3. Set your Overall Control Max and Min to 1 and 2 respectively. This will close the valve all the way down.
4. Grab your favorite Philips screwdriver and start closing the idle screw (righty tighty) until the RPM is around 700-750.

Then go back into the map and set your PID back to 2, 5, 3 and max and min control to 10 and 85. (The valve is essentially always open at 85% DC)

See if that works.

Thanks for looking through it, but as I mentioned later on that day the idle went back to normal without me changing anything at all. Not sure why. My idle settings are around 60. When I set PID to 0, nothing usually changes at all. I figure the throttle is at the appropriate position. Not sure what happened that day.

I bet it was colder out, and with the air density being slightly higher, the IAC valve was basically full closed but the bypass was still letting too much air in.

phantom,
you should still try to fix your open loop idle efforts. the system uses those before settling into closed loop I believe.

Sorry to come back to the party so late.. work has been a bitch...

Here is a log from just the other day. Y8S found a few issues with my rapid learn setting to kick in at 700 RPM but even with a fresh, un-touched map... I still have really high loads at idle for some reason.

Here is the log, and I hope to go out and mess with the car on Sunday... but first I am painting a Corolla for my GF.. lol... :vash:

Attachment 14977

BTW, Y8S... thanks again for the help and your keen eye is killer. I missed that 700 RPM thingine :) Car is great outside of this really rich idle and it pulling almost 70+ kpa... dunno wtf that is about yet.

Cheers yall!
Matt

come over this weekend. we'll calibrate your map sensor properly and if the kPa is still high at idle, I'l find it.

Prospero,

Your car is running +50º vvt advance, that's the reason for high load at idle. Unplug the vvt connector on the valve cover.

Check my "Have I screwed up my ocv valve" thread.

Ahh, so basically I am just gonna disable my vvt for ever and ever, amen? ;)

I'll do that as soon as I get home and see what happens. It's strange, that's for sure.

Thanks for the input!!!

Y8S, thanks for the offer... lemme see how this car painting thing goes and if I don't manage to paint myself into a corner... :)

Cheers,
Matt

Wouldn't it make more sense to set the reference angle so his VVT degrees matches the VVT target map?

That will not solve the problem. The problem lies basically in the high current outputs. The auxiliary output 3 has died and now throws 14 volts continuously, even deactivated from Wari. This is the reason that the VVT is advanced to the maximum. The remaining high-current auxiliary outputs are also affected, in my case the aux-out for idle suffers a small voltage drop ...

I've communicated to Travis and I hope he gets some response from the guys of Adaptronic

so the high current / pwm outputs die when .. used?

Based on the events that happened so far, yes.
My aux-out3 died weeks after being activated. Prospero also recently activated its own, and now has the same problem as me.

Yep, it is possible that my outputs have died too. 2 comments from a close friend of mine...

1) Hey did you put a cam in that thing?
2) What electronic thing did you burn in order to get the car to smell like that?

I pulled the connector and the car is great... Idle and kpa are all groovy... ohh, and no more burning electronics smell.

Guess I will have to look into this now as well. Out to the car with a meter, glass of wine, and a smoke...

Cheers,
Matt

We need a little more data from you to figure all this out. The output of the valve is going to be 14.4 volts no matter what. All the PWM are pull down PWM, meaning they ground the circuit. So on both leads of your valve your going to see system voltage. Have you tried setting your VVT so that its either 0% and to a 100% duty cycle to make sure that doesn't change anything?

Yes, I played out with the duty cycles and offset. Even I've tried turning off the PWM output. The only way to calmdown the intake cam is disconnecting the ocv valve.

Ok, they are still looking into it. I sent them about 3 pages worth of information on this and they haven't responded yet. My guess is that they are still thinking about and analyzing the information I gave them to come up with a solution.

Thanks Travis! I hope they find the solution soon

We finally cracked this intermittent rough idle issue, and it explains exactly what I’ve observed. Adaptronic has tracked down that there is an intermittent ability of a certain diode inside the Adaptronic to handle the VVT mechanism. For whatever reason the VVT valve on these cars really kick back a strong pulse through the VVT driver in the ECU. Some of the ECU’s can handle the kick back, and some cant. It’s a flip of the coin with the component that’s in there. Its within the tolerance of a manufactured part that the diode works correctly. If it’s just by chance manufactured well then its fine. If its manufactured poorly then it doesn’t work, and this effects your idle and everything else while it’s at it.

What’s weird about this is that some ECU’s like I said do fine. Some ECU’s run for months and months and then snap and become hard to idle. Some never idle at all. That’s why I was having real issues with what’s going on. I was seeing that some people could idle them fine and if the car wasn’t idling temperature change, or poor tuning must be causing the issue. I never suspected the hardware in the ECU itself until I presented all this information to Adaptronic. They then put the pieces together and informed me that they had seen another case of this and thought it was truly intermittent. The intermittent part is also why they didn't catch it. After I started really pushing the ECU's and we got a significant enough amount of Adaptronics running VVT that some were not doing the job it became evident to them something else was amiss.

Thankfully the change to fix this is relatively easy. If you could ship your Adaptronic back I can fix the board and you shouldn’t have any other issues. It should be easy to idle just like everyone else’s vehicle.

How do we know if our ECU is affected by this or not without actually noticing the issue?

Is there a proactive fix for this? I haven't installed mine yet and don't have VVT. However, If there is a flaw in the ECU even for a feature I don't use I'd rather have it fixed now and future proof myself.

High idle happened to me again today. Different way, different circumstances. I was trying to retune my idle so it wouldn't run as rich as it has been (13.5-13.8). In the past if I got it any leaner it would hunt so I would leave it rich. Today I thought I would try again tweaking cells around the idle so it wouldn't hunt as bad. Well it started to hunt badly again and eventually landed at an idle around 1500 rpms and wouldn't fall back down to 900rpm. I turned the car off and left it alone for a half hour figuring that something was upset and needed to cool off. It didn't help. I also tried uploading an older map, reflashing the ecu and decreasing the base idle settings around that temperature. Even unplugging the tps did nothing to help the idle. Map was still around 47kpa (as it has been before) and tps read 0%.

My miata is a 2000 and all my vvt settings are at 0. VVT1 reads -30 to -50.

VVT issues... uh oh, not good. Will all the new ECU's be fixed before they are shipped out?

Did you try closing the throttle body idle screw?

Unless -30 to -50 is abnormal for a car with no vvt, I don't think I have vvt issues since my map at idle is not as high as prosperos.

Not yet. I am giving it a longer break. I don't want to close the throttle body idle screw yet if it's going to screw up all of the rest of my settings.

phantom, what's your minimum control value in the upper left? do the logs show you at that value?

What sort of idle kpa should be expected? I have my VVT settings off and see about 43kpa

The new units will be fixed before they are shipped. You live in Louisville man, I'm less then 30 minutes away from anywhere in the city. Its not exactly like your marooned from help anyways. ;)

43 Kpa is normal for idle.

If you want to send a unit back and you have a VVT harness I'll go ahead and make the change. I just don't want to get flooded with units from everyone at once. That a way I can get the people who really need the fix just to drive their car done first. Then people who haven't installed or want preventative maintenance can send it back.

It's at 10%. I'm not sure where to see that in the logs.

I checked and the base idle position was reading 10 instead of 60 like last time. I set the control values to 0 and lowered the idle screw. It was only able to go down to 950rpms with the screw pretty much closed. Turned off the car and couldn't restart the car with the idle screw being turned all the way to the right. I turned the screw a few more turns counter clockwise and the car was able to start again. That seemed to reset the throttle position to normal again. Now that idle is around 900 again my settings are all off. Adjusting open loop base idle doesn't seem to do anything anymore. Car shuts off when I turn on the lights and stalls when I'm taking off. The car seems to be boosting so much quicker now but I now have lean tip in. Going to have to adjust the predicted map all over again.

If you want to see what it's doing in the logs, just pull up any log and view the "Idle" variable. the number corresponds to duty cycle I believe.

fwiw, my car idles at 30-35kPa.

Yeah I know. I pm'd you to stop thread jacking

I'm having the same idle issues again. Car would start off with an idle value at 60 with an idle around 1000. Once the car warmed up the idle value would lower to 10 and the rpms would rise to 1200.

Last time the issue went away by be turning the idle screw all the way down and trying to start the car like that. Turn the screw back to normal and the car was back to normal. This didn't work this time. Lowering the idle screw all the way closed only brings the rpms down to 1000. But I can not start the car this way.

Yesterday I took the intake manifold and throttle body off for cleaning. I also cleaned the pathway to the IAC vavle. I lightly sprayed into the IAC vavle but didn't mess with it too much since I heard cleaning the valve it's self could make it worse.
Not sure if the valve is closed or open? http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2713/...62ddac22d4.jpg
I tested the resistance of the iacv and got a normal reading of 11. So it supposed to be still good.

Now the idle is worse after the cleaning. Even at an idle around 60 it idles around 1500. And when the idle figure lowers to 10, nothing happens. I feel that cleaning the iacv opened the pathway to make the leak worse.

I've tried to lower open loop idle settings to see if it would lower idle but it doesn't do a thing (yes I set PID to Zero).

I've looked for other leaks and haven't found any. The injectors don't seem to be leaking.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Also do i need to jump ground and ten, since it's aftermarket ecu?

The valve looks closed. With everything assembled and car idling, remove your charge pipe from the TB inlet and use your finger to plug the IACV intake port.

Do you have the jumpers on the harness board to let the stock ecu handle idle control?

After reading your first post here again, I had similar issues, but that's the day that I discovered pebbles in my IACV. The issues hasn't come up again since.

stock ecu isn't handling idle. Not sure if it has jumpers but I have too large injectors anyway.

Pretty sure the jumpers would only control the IACV. And in my head it should work, but who knows. I'll see what happens when I put my big ones int.

Just tried it. Rpms lowered to about 600. Would this indicate its stuck open a little? When I had it out, the spring cylinder looking thing didn't completely cover the first valve. You can see it is resessed a little in the picture. How do i clean or fix the valve without damaging it. Again I checked the resistance and got a 11 so it should be working normal.

Also since the idle didn't completely stall when I covered the valve. Does this mean there is a small leak somewhere else?

It would also depend how far your idle screw is set in. I had mine backed all the way out and it would stall when I covered up the little port.

I put TB cleaner in the IACV (which I probably shouldn't have) and just lubed up the threaded rod in there after drying it all out.

Don't forget that I am also a n00b, so take what I say with a grain of salt :noob:

just took the throttle body off again. Should there be a gap on it's valve? I can see light shine through.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4020/...42b953ace8.jpg

Any help with any of this is much appreciated.

There should be some gap. That looks like a much bigger gap than I have with my 900 rpm idle.

The valves only really work between 60-100 percent duty cycle. So, if you go below 60, the valve is just off. It sounds like you have too much air going in. If the computer even opens the valve a little bit the car is idling too high. If you put the PID to 0,0,0 and then put the IAC valve to 73 you then want to adjust the idle screw to where the car idles at the RPM you want it to.

Also high mixture richness can cause problems with idle being too high. See if you can lean out the idle a bit more.

Best,
Travis

By being off do you also mean closed?


Setting PID to 0,0,0 at 60 already has a 1200 idle. Wouldn't raising it to 73 make it higher? Even if I lower the screw all the way it idles around 800 but then wouldn't I have trouble starting? AFR right now is already at 13.8 when warm. I thought this was typical for a few of us. At one point it would stall at any leaner than 14.


Also since I set PID to 0, do I still need to use a jumper when adjusting the screw?

Either way thanks for the advice. I'll try it out.

OK I just tried and it didn't help. I got a 1000rpm idle with the screw all the way in. And lowering the afr barely did anything to lower idle. Just made the idle hunt.
I'm still not sure why I would set idle to 73 if I'm trying to make the IAC valve to shut when warm. I would think this would just keep it open even when I don't need it.

The other thing that confuses me is that when I first start the car when warm the idle will hover around 600 rpms before rising. I feel like this is where idle would normally sit where the screw is at now.

This is actually not the case. Even though I tested and got the same result on the adaptronic on another user's car.

They go down to about 15% duty cycle.

we had the same problem with super high idle. dropped the lower limit down to 15% (ish) and it went away.

PhantomRoadster: you can view the idle value in the logs under the variable (get this!) "idle" :)

Yea I know it's going down to 10 like i've said before.

Could my timing be the cause of this? My ignition is around 17 at 1100rpm idle. Lowering timing to 7 helped the idle but I don't want to be running something that's unsafe. Maybe this is why I get such a low idle right after warm cranking. What's a typical timing value at idle?