AEM Infinity for Miata
 

How many people are interested in a Miata PnP AEM Infinity 8 ECU kit?

VE based tuning using airflow calculation models
Flex fuel compensation
Multi fuel strategy
Dual internal wideband controllers
Data logs 100 channels at up to 1KHz
Data logging playback with controls synchronization
Up to 12 peak and hold injector drivers
Up to 12 (0-5V) ignition outputs (igniter required)
Up to 6 analog temp inputs
Up to 17 analog voltage inputs
Two knock inputs
Up to 8 digital inputs
Up to 6 VR/Mag inputs
Up to 13 configurable outputs
One stepper control
129 pin, fully sealed ECU enclosure and IP67 spec connectors

Infinity Stand-Alone Programmable Engine Management System - Wideband O2 UEGO, Water/Methanol, Stand Alone Engine Management, Piggyback F/IC, Tru Boost Controller, Gauges, Automotive Performance Electronics

This can be general Infinity discussion thread as well..

EB Turbo

Is this going to be plug and play

I mean is it going to have basemaps

We've been talking to AEM about a PnP Infinity setup for several months now. It will happen eventually, but not soon. IIRC they haven't done a full release of the 12/10/8 boxes yet.

Needless to say, it's going to have features that no other Miata box on the market has today. :)

I wouldnt want an infinity setup to be PnP. Its powerful enough that I want completely control of how its wired so that I can use it to its fullest ability.

And you have to think, any PnP infinity setup is going to be ~$3k. How many people are going to put a $3k ecu into their $4k car?

$3k is a high number. It won't be much cheaper than that, but it will be a bit cheaper. If you compare it to a Hydra, it's going to have a vastly superior feature-set at a slightly higher price. If you're still in the mindset of "why would I spend $3k on a $4k car", then you're not this product's target customer :)

A PnP setup wouldn't be I/O limited like the EMS-4 - there will be plenty of additional I/Os available to add whatever you want, or build your own harness straight from the pins. The abilities of this box kind of blew me away when I first started talking with AEM about it.

Damn, i mean, it looks and sounds amazing... but, that price... obviously im not in their target range... but that is soooo high regardless... when it comes out, anyone who runs it, PLEASE keep us updated. im really curious about it, even though, i wont be buying one, just due to price, and the fact that i dont NEED it with my setup, and daily driving.

This may seem like a stupid question.... but what's really groundbreaking about this when applied to the Miata platform and it's stone age simple motor?

Besides the awesome datalogging, that is.

I mean, are there sensors and injection options that we can't accurately and sufficiently control today with Megasquirt, Hydra, or anything else in that same sort of category? I understand that AEM Infinity is the greatest thing since i figured out that my penis slotted pretty nicely into the palm of my hand, but what does that mean for the Miata in particular?


Or is this just a big step forward purely in the areas of datalogging and interfacing?

Of course. I wouldn't make a kit that wouldn't have a solid base map.

The Infinity 8 and 10 have been out for a few months already. Only Factory Trained dealers are able to sell them. I've had an Infinity 10 in hand for a few weeks already. I can have more in hand tomorrow if needed. Depending on the car and setup I could have a running Miata in a week.

Well PnP would mean it wouldn't take much wiring to get it up and running. Our other kits(for other cars) have "options" plugs. These come prewired for almost any sensor you want in any configuration you want. We can even make an option for LS coils, Toyota coils, extra injectors. Just because it is labeled PnP doesn't mean you are limited. Anything is possible you will just need to order the kit based on your needs.

Depending on options you will be looking in the $3k-$3.5k and up to $4k with a lot of options. You need to consider you will be getting a Lambda sensor, possibly a MAP, IAT, Boost Solenoid, Trim Switches, Flex Fuel Sensor, Different trigger wheels...

The Infinity has almost the same I/Os as an optioned MoTeC M800($7k+) for just a bit more than the base M84($2.3k-$3k). Put that into prospective. This is a no brianer investment for those with big horsepower or those that have a lot invested in their car. It goes a lot past control. Reliability, Engine protection, logging, 3rd party data output.. The Investment is well worth it.

EB Turbo

I'm not sure how much less than 3k you'll get it since the cheapest "Special price" infinity retail is ~2650 and the basic harness retails ~170, you've also got labor to wire the harness so your profit margin is basically the difference between your wholesale cost of the materials and their retail price, whatever that is.

The infinity is certainly a super capable ecu. The backup cpu could be a life saver for enduro cars if it works like I think it does. Out of the whole feature set the most interesting thing to me is having 2 h bridge drivers and native DBW support. Which would let me do dirty dirty things on a turbo car, IF i had true full control. If the software and firmware are like other AEM applications I wont have that full control. And if the firmware is like normal AEM I'm not expecting them to take full advantage of that processor, not even close. I'm sure they'll sure high utilization of it, but thats just because their code is junk. When I asked them to add VE support to the EMS4 they said they didnt have the processor overhead for it. Which is bullcrap, how does it work on that garbage processor and crummy code on the MS1, or the Haltech Sport 2000 that has the same clock speed, or OEM's ecus with 1/4 the clock speed.

Ad there's other things to consider. To get that sort of feature set compared to a motec of twice the price, what did they have to skimp on? The EMS4 is very obviously missing a lot of software features and it seems to be missing any sort of filtering on all of its inputs. Especially a big deal on crank and cam signals, but its no small thing on TPS and MAP too.

I will give AEM that they are really really trying to pull down the Big boys, this ecu does have a $4k feature set, just like the EMS4 has a $2k feature set. Hopefully and another year or two we'll get a response from Motec and Haltech. Or even now with MS coming out with a legit looking ECU with the MS3Pro, which almost looks like it came out to be a direct competitor with the infinity if you put both spec sheets next to each other.

The two I'm most excited about are the integrations between flex fuel and boost control (two fully configurable maps which would allow you to not only retain TPS-based boost control, but also increase boost automatically based on ethanol content) and wheel speed based traction control (ECU looks at wheel speed differential and cuts out injector cycle, much like the Racelogic boxes do). Integrated traction control would make high-WHP cars infinitely more usable on the street, and making that kind of functionality plug-and-play will be a huge plus for guys who want big, easy power.

There are other things, of course - fuel pressure and oil pressure failsafes, injector lag times adjusted based on fuel pressure, VE tables compensated for fuel pressure (saves a motor from instadeath if you lose an FPR or a slowly dying fuel pump), massively powerful EBC (think user-selectable axes on the base duty and error tables), and lots of stuff I can't recite off the top of my head. It's a big step forward.

The "secret" is that there will be boxes priced under the 8 with fewer injector/spark drivers.

Is EBTurbo an authorized vendor?

Who are you EB Turbo? Have you put in to become a sponsor on mt.net? If not before you talk about making and selling PNP AEM systems on here we ask that you become a sponsor.

Faxed

I like the compensation for fuel pressure and such... so it seems like failsafes are a big part of it. (which is something i've liked about their meth controllers.)

Integrated traction control is already available on a few ECUs on the market. I guess the difference will be shown in how easy it is to configure and/or how well it works. (Hydra in theory, Syvecs, etc)

I dig the flex fuel/boost map. You make it sound like it may be the next step from the solutions already on the market. :)

I do not currently offer a kit. So I cannot sell one. I have not advertised made any reference to who I am or what shop I work for. If I do start selling Miata PnP kits, I will be more than happy to become a vendor.

Once you actually look at the software and are able to understand the control/logic these features are even more appealing than on paper. On paper lacks the ability to explain all of the logic you can implements into the controls.

Easy is subjective. The systems will work as well as you understand the and are able to set up the logic and define the limitation tables. With the correct guidance the systems should be relatively easy for a novice to set up for the level of control they offer.

This is a giant leap from anything in the price range. You are getting to control level of Pectel, MoTec and, LifeRacing.

EB Turbo

Since you seem to be on the inside.... explain in more detail why the flex fuel/boost map thing is better than other flex fuel solutions on the market.

Correct.. What are people willing to pay will also be a factor.

What do you want to do?

You are partially right about what the ECUs are capable of and what AEM has them do. You also need to take into consideration what goes into the logic of the VE calculations. Some may have very basic calculations and some have very complex calculations. It is possible the calculation on the Infinity will not even run on the MS1, PS2000, adaptronic.. IMO the other VE calculator lack basic variables that really make the VE calculation work. saying you have "VE calculation" is a really broad statement.

Its not necessarily skimping on anything as much as it may be volume. If AEM can double the sales of MoTeC ECUs then they can charge half the price.

No Flex fuel support either...

MoTeC already has the M1 line. They are not cheap and are exclusive to M1 trained dealers only. but the level of control far surpasses almost everything else. I have seen an M150 car run quad cam control, 4 Direct injectors, 4 port injectors, DBW control, Per cylinder knock control, with Multiple CAN streams to other 3rd party devices. Enough about MoTeC..

EB Turbo

I am just a Properly trained Dealer. I don't really have the time right now. I need to get back to work. I will post the logic and how the tables work later today. I will post screen shots if I get the time.

EB Turbo

I'm not smart enough for tables. I need words and examples vs how flex fuel works on Hydra, Megasquirt, or Haltech for example.

I will explain the controls.

EB Turbo

There is still only so much involved in the standard calculation its really simple math that gets you from a VE number, a desired AFR and all the sensor input, anything else like transients are not part of the standard VE math. And are almost always handled separately. I want to see if they use real OEM level transients or just stomp comp like the EMS4, the EMS4 processor is fast enough to handle wall wetting transients and any normal VE at the same time. The devil is in the interpolation between cells, and how good your interpolation is.


I would never expect them to be able to sell WAY more volume than the big guys. Though I expect, the big guys has some comfortable profit margins.


Its not like it has enough inputs for it anyways. I'm using all the I/Os on the EMS4 just to run a turbo vvt car with vics.

Ben, just download the tuning software. Catalog & Software Downloads - Wideband O2 UEGO, Water/Methanol, Stand Alone Engine Management, Piggyback F/IC, Tru Boost Controller, Gauges, Automotive Performance Electronics I havent had a chance to look at it yet. Maybe its better than than AEM tuner, or like AEM tuner it'll look like a super awesome interface that might be the only major brand standalone interface that doesnt suck, but suck once you go to use it.

I don't know enough about any software yet for that to tell me anything. Plain and simple, i just want to know what makes it better than the other flex fuel capable standalones on the market. What can it do when it comes to the boost maps and modifying it based on ethanol percentage that other systems can't?

I honestly don't have a dog in this fight. I don't have a Miata that would really benefit much from a cutting edge EMS, nor will i ever.

I'm just wanting to sponge some knowledge and learn because i like to. :)

As an example Flex Fuel in the Series II works something like this. You have Base fuel, Timing, and Boost target tables. Then AEM Adds duplicate tables for Fuel, Timing and Boost targets(Trim, RPM, VSS, Gear, TPS). Plus some extra starting tables. For each Fuel, Timing, and Boost you get blend tables. This is designed for you to tune pump gas on the base tables, E85 on the Flex tables and then you tune each blend table to maintain the correct timing, AFR and, Manifold pressure as Flex content changes. Pretty straight forward. This also requires you to use the boost target comp method of boost tuning.

Some other systems do not have as many AUX maps to tune for Flex, do not have the resolution in those tables, Do not allow you to modify the rate of blend, do not have flex boost control, or additional tables for flex starting.

Now, In the Infinity. The only thing that is the same is Ignition. Base table, Flex table and a blend table. Flex Fuel is part of the VE calculation. You get a Lambda Table 2, Flex Stoichiometric AFR v. Flex Content and a Lambda Flex Blend table. You will define your Lambda Table 2(speed density or AlphaN) just as you would a lambda VE table but you will use the stoich value of the fuel you are using. Because the stoichiometric ratio of E85 is different than pump gas the ECU needs to calculate for the difference in Lambda of the fuel being used. The Flex Stoichiometric AFR v. Flex Content table allows you to set what the stoichiometric ratio of the fuel you are using based off of flex content. When running pump gas you are 14.7:1. When running E100 you are 9.0:1. There will be a linear line between those points. The Flex blend table, this is where you will set the bled ratio based on flex content. There are some Flex starting tables as well. Pretty easy, huh?

For boost control you have 2 Base duty tables and 2 target tables, All 10x10. You can set all of the Duty and Target tables to whatever axis you want from a choice of: Air Temp, BARO Pressure, Trim SW, Coolant temp, Exhaust back pressure, RPM, Flex %, Gear, Inj Pressure, Launch Ramp time, MIL Output, TPS, Turbo Shaft speed and, VSS. You can set the base duty 1 table to Boost target(KPa) v. RPM and tune those target levels. You can define your target tables however you want. The 4 axis of the target tables will add to total your "boost target". Just as long as one of your axis is flex content you can determine what boost level you want to run based on Flex%. This allows for a lot of flexibility when tuning boost control. Just as you have the ability to set each axis you also have the ability to define the breakpoints as you choose. If you want the TPS resolution to be 10% - 50% then 100% you can do that. If you want to give yourself higher resolution in your target boost areas you can set the Boost target breakpoints to between 100-250kpa. No need for boost targets in vacuum. This goes for every table in the software not just the boost control. More boost table axis will come in later firmware updates based upon user request. Questions?

EB Turbo

I think AEM is moving on past the GEMS based systems. The new firmware will for Series II be the last and I am not sure about the EMS-4. I believe they are expecting the Infinity 4 and 8H to replace the EMS-4/Series II. Trying to get them to further develop those systems will take away from moving forward onto the Infinity platform.

This is my biggest gripe with the EMS-4. Lack of I/Os. Honestly, I don't like to use it.

What is your issue with AEMTuner? Infinity Tuner sucks when you don't have anyone to show you how to use it. A short explanation of some of the basic features and I am sure you will be very impressed. It has the ability to do math channels, do channel conversions, hot key math channels that are user definable, generate channel data based on slider bars.... Setting up the software to your liking can be a bit frustrating but once you dial it it will work very well. The ECU only thinks in metric and Lambda. If you want to display AFR or Imperial channels you have to do math channels for the conversion. They are already set up for you. Those types of things are really cool and weird at the same time. This is not a system for vendors who do not support. AEM will cut you off...

EB Turbo

So the flex fuel logic works like flex fuel logic is supposed to, more or less.

My problems with AEM tuner mostly revolve around it not giving enough control and the tab layout. I'm slowly working on fixing the 2nd one but it takes a lot of work and some of it isnt possible. Or how when you click into a table sometimes it scrolls the screen all weird and tries to center the cells on the screen, as if I wasnt trying to look at the whole table like I had the view setup before clicking in. And I dont like how a lot of things are just non-standard. Like the P for idle control is a weird inverse P. The post start enrichment table either has a really weird name or doesnt exist. Things like that

Everyone does PIDs differently. The Infinity has a different calculator between the ems4/SII and infinity. I use a small resolution laptop for tuning so I get where you are coming from there. I have set all of my tabs to exactly what I want in the size I can handle. When you use a 16"+ screen it definately is a lot better.

I use AEMs a lot. I am really used to the control strategy. On other lesser systems I find myself trying to replicate. Not being able to run AlphaN with boost comp and have proper working staged injection is very frustrating. I love complex open loop strategies. Closed loop is not a crutch. You would be suprised how many ecus don't allow or make it super complicated to have TPS and MAP as a load scaler.

EB Turbo

You would think this would be standard. It isn't. Some systems have very poor flex fuel integration. Even though they may make corrections for flex, They lack a lot of the basic controls to make flex fuel work properly.

EB Turbo