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Old 06-06-2013, 12:43 PM   #1
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Default AEM Infinity for Miata

How many people are interested in a Miata PnP AEM Infinity 8 ECU kit?

VE based tuning using airflow calculation models
Flex fuel compensation
Multi fuel strategy
Dual internal wideband controllers
Data logs 100 channels at up to 1KHz
Data logging playback with controls synchronization
Up to 12 peak and hold injector drivers
Up to 12 (0-5V) ignition outputs (igniter required)
Up to 6 analog temp inputs
Up to 17 analog voltage inputs
Two knock inputs
Up to 8 digital inputs
Up to 6 VR/Mag inputs
Up to 13 configurable outputs
One stepper control
129 pin, fully sealed ECU enclosure and IP67 spec connectors

Infinity Stand-Alone Programmable Engine Management System - Wideband O2 UEGO, Water/Methanol, Stand Alone Engine Management, Piggyback F/IC, Tru Boost Controller, Gauges, Automotive Performance Electronics

This can be general Infinity discussion thread as well..

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Old 06-06-2013, 02:18 PM   #2
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Is this going to be plug and play
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Old 06-06-2013, 02:19 PM   #3
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I mean is it going to have basemaps
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Old 06-06-2013, 02:35 PM   #4
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We've been talking to AEM about a PnP Infinity setup for several months now. It will happen eventually, but not soon. IIRC they haven't done a full release of the 12/10/8 boxes yet.

Needless to say, it's going to have features that no other Miata box on the market has today.
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Old 06-06-2013, 02:37 PM   #5
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I wouldnt want an infinity setup to be PnP. Its powerful enough that I want completely control of how its wired so that I can use it to its fullest ability.

And you have to think, any PnP infinity setup is going to be ~$3k. How many people are going to put a $3k ecu into their $4k car?
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Old 06-06-2013, 02:42 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
I wouldnt want an infinity setup to be PnP. Its powerful enough that I want completely control of how its wired so that I can use it to its fullest ability.

And you have to think, any PnP infinity setup is going to be ~$3k. How many people are going to put a $3k ecu into their $4k car?
$3k is a high number. It won't be much cheaper than that, but it will be a bit cheaper. If you compare it to a Hydra, it's going to have a vastly superior feature-set at a slightly higher price. If you're still in the mindset of "why would I spend $3k on a $4k car", then you're not this product's target customer

A PnP setup wouldn't be I/O limited like the EMS-4 - there will be plenty of additional I/Os available to add whatever you want, or build your own harness straight from the pins. The abilities of this box kind of blew me away when I first started talking with AEM about it.
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Old 06-06-2013, 02:48 PM   #7
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Damn, i mean, it looks and sounds amazing... but, that price... obviously im not in their target range... but that is soooo high regardless... when it comes out, anyone who runs it, PLEASE keep us updated. im really curious about it, even though, i wont be buying one, just due to price, and the fact that i dont NEED it with my setup, and daily driving.
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Old 06-06-2013, 02:53 PM   #8
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This may seem like a stupid question.... but what's really groundbreaking about this when applied to the Miata platform and it's stone age simple motor?

Besides the awesome datalogging, that is.

I mean, are there sensors and injection options that we can't accurately and sufficiently control today with Megasquirt, Hydra, or anything else in that same sort of category? I understand that AEM Infinity is the greatest thing since i figured out that my ***** slotted pretty nicely into the palm of my hand, but what does that mean for the Miata in particular?


Or is this just a big step forward purely in the areas of datalogging and interfacing?
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Old 06-06-2013, 03:04 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BestBritishSportsCar View Post
I mean is it going to have basemaps
Is this going to be plug and play
Of course. I wouldn't make a kit that wouldn't have a solid base map.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
We've been talking to AEM about a PnP Infinity setup for several months now. It will happen eventually, but not soon. IIRC they haven't done a full release of the 12/10/8 boxes yet.

Needless to say, it's going to have features that no other Miata box on the market has today.
The Infinity 8 and 10 have been out for a few months already. Only Factory Trained dealers are able to sell them. I've had an Infinity 10 in hand for a few weeks already. I can have more in hand tomorrow if needed. Depending on the car and setup I could have a running Miata in a week.

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Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
I wouldnt want an infinity setup to be PnP. Its powerful enough that I want completely control of how its wired so that I can use it to its fullest ability.

And you have to think, any PnP infinity setup is going to be ~$3k. How many people are going to put a $3k ecu into their $4k car?
Well PnP would mean it wouldn't take much wiring to get it up and running. Our other kits(for other cars) have "options" plugs. These come prewired for almost any sensor you want in any configuration you want. We can even make an option for LS coils, Toyota coils, extra injectors. Just because it is labeled PnP doesn't mean you are limited. Anything is possible you will just need to order the kit based on your needs.

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Originally Posted by Savington View Post
$3k is a high number. It won't be much cheaper than that, but it will be a bit cheaper. If you compare it to a Hydra, it's going to have a vastly superior feature-set at a slightly higher price. If you're still in the mindset of "why would I spend $3k on a $4k car", then you're not this product's target customer

A PnP setup wouldn't be I/O limited like the EMS-4 - there will be plenty of additional I/Os available to add whatever you want, or build your own harness straight from the pins. The abilities of this box kind of blew me away when I first started talking with AEM about it.
Depending on options you will be looking in the $3k-$3.5k and up to $4k with a lot of options. You need to consider you will be getting a Lambda sensor, possibly a MAP, IAT, Boost Solenoid, Trim Switches, Flex Fuel Sensor, Different trigger wheels...

The Infinity has almost the same I/Os as an optioned MoTeC M800($7k+) for just a bit more than the base M84($2.3k-$3k). Put that into prospective. This is a no brianer investment for those with big horsepower or those that have a lot invested in their car. It goes a lot past control. Reliability, Engine protection, logging, 3rd party data output.. The Investment is well worth it.

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Old 06-06-2013, 03:12 PM   #10
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I'm not sure how much less than 3k you'll get it since the cheapest "Special price" infinity retail is ~2650 and the basic harness retails ~170, you've also got labor to wire the harness so your profit margin is basically the difference between your wholesale cost of the materials and their retail price, whatever that is.

The infinity is certainly a super capable ecu. The backup cpu could be a life saver for enduro cars if it works like I think it does. Out of the whole feature set the most interesting thing to me is having 2 h bridge drivers and native DBW support. Which would let me do dirty dirty things on a turbo car, IF i had true full control. If the software and firmware are like other AEM applications I wont have that full control. And if the firmware is like normal AEM I'm not expecting them to take full advantage of that processor, not even close. I'm sure they'll sure high utilization of it, but thats just because their code is junk. When I asked them to add VE support to the EMS4 they said they didnt have the processor overhead for it. Which is bullcrap, how does it work on that garbage processor and crummy code on the MS1, or the Haltech Sport 2000 that has the same clock speed, or OEM's ecus with 1/4 the clock speed.

Ad there's other things to consider. To get that sort of feature set compared to a motec of twice the price, what did they have to skimp on? The EMS4 is very obviously missing a lot of software features and it seems to be missing any sort of filtering on all of its inputs. Especially a big deal on crank and cam signals, but its no small thing on TPS and MAP too.

I will give AEM that they are really really trying to pull down the Big boys, this ecu does have a $4k feature set, just like the EMS4 has a $2k feature set. Hopefully and another year or two we'll get a response from Motec and Haltech. Or even now with MS coming out with a legit looking ECU with the MS3Pro, which almost looks like it came out to be a direct competitor with the infinity if you put both spec sheets next to each other.
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Old 06-06-2013, 03:12 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by concealer404 View Post
This may seem like a stupid question.... but what's really groundbreaking about this when applied to the Miata platform and it's stone age simple motor?

Besides the awesome datalogging, that is.

I mean, are there sensors and injection options that we can't accurately and sufficiently control today with Megasquirt, Hydra, or anything else in that same sort of category? I understand that AEM Infinity is the greatest thing since i figured out that my ***** slotted pretty nicely into the palm of my hand, but what does that mean for the Miata in particular?


Or is this just a big step forward purely in the areas of datalogging and interfacing?
The two I'm most excited about are the integrations between flex fuel and boost control (two fully configurable maps which would allow you to not only retain TPS-based boost control, but also increase boost automatically based on ethanol content) and wheel speed based traction control (ECU looks at wheel speed differential and cuts out injector cycle, much like the Racelogic boxes do). Integrated traction control would make high-WHP cars infinitely more usable on the street, and making that kind of functionality plug-and-play will be a huge plus for guys who want big, easy power.

There are other things, of course - fuel pressure and oil pressure failsafes, injector lag times adjusted based on fuel pressure, VE tables compensated for fuel pressure (saves a motor from instadeath if you lose an FPR or a slowly dying fuel pump), massively powerful EBC (think user-selectable axes on the base duty and error tables), and lots of stuff I can't recite off the top of my head. It's a big step forward.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
I'm not sure how much less than 3k you'll get it since the cheapest "Special price" infinity retail is ~2650 and the basic harness retails ~170, you've also got labor to wire the harness so your profit margin is basically the difference between your wholesale cost of the materials and their retail price, whatever that is.
The "secret" is that there will be boxes priced under the 8 with fewer injector/spark drivers.
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Old 06-06-2013, 03:34 PM   #12
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Is EBTurbo an authorized vendor?
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Old 06-06-2013, 03:34 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EB Turbo View Post
How many people are interested in a Miata PnP AEM Infinity 8 ECU kit?

VE based tuning using airflow calculation models
Flex fuel compensation
Multi fuel strategy
Dual internal wideband controllers
Data logs 100 channels at up to 1KHz
Data logging playback with controls synchronization
Up to 12 peak and hold injector drivers
Up to 12 (0-5V) ignition outputs (igniter required)
Up to 6 analog temp inputs
Up to 17 analog voltage inputs
Two knock inputs
Up to 8 digital inputs
Up to 6 VR/Mag inputs
Up to 13 configurable outputs
One stepper control
129 pin, fully sealed ECU enclosure and IP67 spec connectors

Infinity Stand-Alone Programmable Engine Management System - Wideband O2 UEGO, Water/Methanol, Stand Alone Engine Management, Piggyback F/IC, Tru Boost Controller, Gauges, Automotive Performance Electronics

This can be general Infinity discussion thread as well..

EB Turbo
Who are you EB Turbo? Have you put in to become a sponsor on mt.net? If not before you talk about making and selling PNP AEM systems on here we ask that you become a sponsor.
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Old 06-06-2013, 03:37 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by shuiend View Post
Who are you EB Turbo? Have you put in to become a sponsor on mt.net? If not before you talk about making and selling PNP AEM systems on here we ask that you become a sponsor before we disrespect your famiry.
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Old 06-06-2013, 04:27 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
The two I'm most excited about are the integrations between flex fuel and boost control (two fully configurable maps which would allow you to not only retain TPS-based boost control, but also increase boost automatically based on ethanol content) and wheel speed based traction control (ECU looks at wheel speed differential and cuts out injector cycle, much like the Racelogic boxes do). Integrated traction control would make high-WHP cars infinitely more usable on the street, and making that kind of functionality plug-and-play will be a huge plus for guys who want big, easy power.

There are other things, of course - fuel pressure and oil pressure failsafes, injector lag times adjusted based on fuel pressure, VE tables compensated for fuel pressure (saves a motor from instadeath if you lose an FPR or a slowly dying fuel pump), massively powerful EBC (think user-selectable axes on the base duty and error tables), and lots of stuff I can't recite off the top of my head. It's a big step forward.
I like the compensation for fuel pressure and such... so it seems like failsafes are a big part of it. (which is something i've liked about their meth controllers.)

Integrated traction control is already available on a few ECUs on the market. I guess the difference will be shown in how easy it is to configure and/or how well it works. (Hydra in theory, Syvecs, etc)

I dig the flex fuel/boost map. You make it sound like it may be the next step from the solutions already on the market.
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Old 06-06-2013, 04:40 PM   #16
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Who are you EB Turbo? Have you put in to become a sponsor on mt.net? If not before you talk about making and selling PNP AEM systems on here we ask that you become a sponsor.
I do not currently offer a kit. So I cannot sell one. I have not advertised made any reference to who I am or what shop I work for. If I do start selling Miata PnP kits, I will be more than happy to become a vendor.

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I like the compensation for fuel pressure and such... so it seems like failsafes are a big part of it. (which is something i've liked about their meth controllers.)
Once you actually look at the software and are able to understand the control/logic these features are even more appealing than on paper. On paper lacks the ability to explain all of the logic you can implements into the controls.

Quote:
Integrated traction control is already available on a few ECUs on the market. I guess the difference will be shown in how easy it is to configure and/or how well it works. (Hydra in theory, Syvecs, etc)
Easy is subjective. The systems will work as well as you understand the and are able to set up the logic and define the limitation tables. With the correct guidance the systems should be relatively easy for a novice to set up for the level of control they offer.

Quote:
I dig the flex fuel/boost map. You make it sound like it may be the next step from the solutions already on the market.
This is a giant leap from anything in the price range. You are getting to control level of Pectel, MoTec and, LifeRacing.

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Old 06-06-2013, 04:45 PM   #17
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Since you seem to be on the inside.... explain in more detail why the flex fuel/boost map thing is better than other flex fuel solutions on the market.
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Old 06-06-2013, 04:53 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
I'm not sure how much less than 3k you'll get it since the cheapest "Special price" infinity retail is ~2650 and the basic harness retails ~170, you've also got labor to wire the harness so your profit margin is basically the difference between your wholesale cost of the materials and their retail price, whatever that is.
Correct.. What are people willing to pay will also be a factor.

Quote:
Out of the whole feature set the most interesting thing to me is having 2 h bridge drivers and native DBW support. Which would let me do dirty dirty things on a turbo car, IF i had true full control.
What do you want to do?

Quote:
If the software and firmware are like other AEM applications I wont have that full control. And if the firmware is like normal AEM I'm not expecting them to take full advantage of that processor, not even close. I'm sure they'll sure high utilization of it, but thats just because their code is junk. When I asked them to add VE support to the EMS4 they said they didnt have the processor overhead for it. Which is bullcrap, how does it work on that garbage processor and crummy code on the MS1, or the Haltech Sport 2000 that has the same clock speed, or OEM's ecus with 1/4 the clock speed.
You are partially right about what the ECUs are capable of and what AEM has them do. You also need to take into consideration what goes into the logic of the VE calculations. Some may have very basic calculations and some have very complex calculations. It is possible the calculation on the Infinity will not even run on the MS1, PS2000, adaptronic.. IMO the other VE calculator lack basic variables that really make the VE calculation work. saying you have "VE calculation" is a really broad statement.

Quote:
Ad there's other things to consider. To get that sort of feature set compared to a motec of twice the price, what did they have to skimp on?
Its not necessarily skimping on anything as much as it may be volume. If AEM can double the sales of MoTeC ECUs then they can charge half the price.

Quote:
The EMS4 is very obviously missing a lot of software features and it seems to be missing any sort of filtering on all of its inputs. Especially a big deal on crank and cam signals, but its no small thing on TPS and MAP too.
No Flex fuel support either...

Quote:
I will give AEM that they are really really trying to pull down the Big boys, this ecu does have a $4k feature set, just like the EMS4 has a $2k feature set. Hopefully and another year or two we'll get a response from Motec and Haltech. Or even now with MS coming out with a legit looking ECU with the MS3Pro, which almost looks like it came out to be a direct competitor with the infinity if you put both spec sheets next to each other.
MoTeC already has the M1 line. They are not cheap and are exclusive to M1 trained dealers only. but the level of control far surpasses almost everything else. I have seen an M150 car run quad cam control, 4 Direct injectors, 4 port injectors, DBW control, Per cylinder knock control, with Multiple CAN streams to other 3rd party devices. Enough about MoTeC..

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Old 06-06-2013, 04:56 PM   #19
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Since you seem to be on the inside.... explain in more detail why the flex fuel/boost map thing is better than other flex fuel solutions on the market.
I am just a Properly trained Dealer. I don't really have the time right now. I need to get back to work. I will post the logic and how the tables work later today. I will post screen shots if I get the time.

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Old 06-06-2013, 05:00 PM   #20
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I'm not smart enough for tables. I need words and examples vs how flex fuel works on Hydra, Megasquirt, or Haltech for example.
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