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Old 11-06-2013, 12:52 AM   #21
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Well heres the thing the energy output and the stoich have nothing in common so treat them separately.

I said 30% increase to make the afrs correct however the power output isnt the same as gasoline. Also in cruise you can safetly lean out E85 as it still remains stable even at leaner mixtures of even 17.5afr on an unmodified afr gauge (stoich e85 is ~15.5 using unmodified gas gauge)

On the other hand, leaning out gasoline in cruise will start bucking and misfiring around 16 with stock spark.

In other words in wot you end up increasing wot afrs by about 30% however in cruise you only increase values 20ish % from the regular gas table.
In your first post you were 100% right. Needing 30% more fuel for E85 means your running 30% leaner A/F ratios BEFORE adding more fuel.

But above you say stoich and power ouputs have nothing in common....

File:Ideal-stoichiometry.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I always tune A/F for power. Would an engine make the same power at 15 A/F as it would at 12.2?

Of course this has nothing to do with Methanol vs gasoline that was initially discussed, but separating A/F from power is not good tuning practices.
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Old 11-06-2013, 12:58 AM   #22
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For a fuel to make more power it would have to carry its own source of oxygen.
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Old 11-06-2013, 01:08 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by cukali View Post
In your first post you were 100% right. Needing 30% more fuel for E85 means your running 30% leaner A/F ratios BEFORE adding more fuel.

But above you say stoich and power ouputs have nothing in common....

File:Ideal-stoichiometry.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I always tune A/F for power. Would an engine make the same power at 15 A/F as it would at 12.2?

Of course this has nothing to do with Methanol vs gasoline that was initially discussed, but separating A/F from power is not good tuning practices.
In the above i said nothing like that. I said max power afr for gasoline vs max power for e85 is different due to the energy difference in each fuel. The fact that you need 30% of it to get it down to the right afr and the fact that the afrs are similar to the gasoline afrs are a complete coincidence.
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Old 11-06-2013, 01:12 AM   #24
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Care to elaborate?

Do you actually know what Nitromethane is and why it creates more power than fuels that do not have their own source of oxygen?


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"As an engine fuel

Nitromethane is used as a fuel in motor racing, particularly drag racing, as well as for rockets and radio-controlled models (such as cars, planes and helicopters) and is commonly referred to in this context as "nitro." The oxygen content of nitromethane enables it to burn with much less atmospheric oxygen."

4CH3NO2 + 3O2 → 4CO2 + 6H2O + 2N2



Nitromethane - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I believe the fail belongs to you. Though I feel this will be a long drawn out game of dodge ball where you duck and hide and faint left and right.
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Old 11-06-2013, 01:18 AM   #25
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Try pure hydrogen in ur "doesnt matter the fuel you'll make the same power" theory...
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Old 11-06-2013, 01:37 AM   #26
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Try pure hydrogen in ur "doesnt matter the fuel you'll make the same power" theory...
So, is that what you do when you have nothing to say? Make up mis-quotes?

Please point to any of my posts where I said "doesnt matter the fuel youll make the same power".

What you now doing is trying to get out of a losing situation by lying.

You are now lying about your own words to....here, I will post what you said...
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Old 11-06-2013, 01:40 AM   #27
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For a fuel to make more power it would have to carry its own source of oxygen.
You want me to quote what u said 3rd time?

What you now doing is trying to get out of a losing situation by editing your original post.
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Old 11-06-2013, 01:52 AM   #28
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You :"Well heres the thing the energy output and the stoich have nothing in common so treat them separately."

I said they DO have something in common.

You: " You see when you switch to e85, everything in your gasoline tune is 30% leaner..." (which you edited out E85 having 30% less energy)


I agreed with you completely. So why would you think I felt ALL fuels have the same energy when I just agreed E85 has less than Pump gas?

Now, so you can keep focused on what I am saying. I will state it clearly....I have NO theory that all fuels are the same or that "no matter what fuel you burn they all make the same power".

I am saying, E85 has 30% less energy than gasoline AND will burn 30% leaner. Thats my first post, check it and verify.

As for your fictional statement about a theory I claimed to have, I guess that was your dodge left...or maybe right. Not sure.

Can you stand behind YOUR theory that stioch and power have nothing in common?
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Old 11-06-2013, 01:57 AM   #29
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Old 11-06-2013, 02:01 AM   #30
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You want me to quote what u said 3rd time?

What you now doing is trying to get out of a losing situation by editing your original post.
Well exactly. That is not even CLOSE to "it doesnt matter the fuel, they all make the same power."


you still havent elaborated on what you find in error with saying.. "for a fuel to make more power, it would have to carry its own source of oxygen".

Also, you still have failed to explain how stoich and power dont have anything on common.

I posted a link that proves your statement wrong, and I also posted a link that shows Nitromethane having its own oxygen source and will create ore power without more air. Methanol, gasoline, E85, Race fuel...cannot.

Read over my posts again....if you merely quote one sentence and leave out the whole post, your ignoring what I am saying only to try and rectify your own losses.

But like I said....I knew it when I saw your first misquote...this will be a long game of dodge ball.

Still waiting for stioch and power having nothing in common.
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Old 11-06-2013, 02:09 AM   #31
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So what does that have to do with you statement "stioch and power have nothing in common"?

Are you deiberately "dodging" again?

Please make a statement if you disagree with anything I said. Dont misquote, dont surgically remove a sentences, dont think beyond E85 and gasoline (like hydrogen), and I will give you facts to back up what I posted. IF you think I meant something differently, then you get clarity if you point out what I said that you disagree with.

BUT remember, unless you back up your statements, whats the point of backing up mine?

Stioch and power please.

I am getting the feeling you post/read more than you tune ECUs.
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Old 11-06-2013, 02:13 AM   #32
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Well exactly. That is not even CLOSE to "it doesnt matter the fuel, they all make the same power."


you still havent elaborated on what you find in error with saying.. "for a fuel to make more power, it would have to carry its own source of oxygen".

Also, you still have failed to explain how stoich and power dont have anything on common.
Hydrogen as a fuel on a gasoline motor conversion makes 20% more power without any other tunning. Hydrogen has no oxygen molecules with it.

afr of 1 fuel do not compare to afr of the other fuel at all.

As far as your stoich vs power goes.. You need to stop "teaching lessons" and actually learn to read entire post as a whole.. not bit by bit. In my post i didnt say anything about stoich vs power per fuel. Its pretty obvious that you'd have different afrs for different engine conditions and different afrs for different power outputs.. otherwise i wouldnt have wasted 3 sentences explaining the difference between the fuels after that.
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Old 11-06-2013, 02:23 AM   #33
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Well heres the thing the energy output and the stoich have nothing in common so treat them separately.
?
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Old 11-06-2013, 02:27 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by cukali View Post
?
Quote:
Originally Posted by triple88a View Post
As far as your stoich vs power goes.. You need to stop "teaching lessons" and actually learn to read entire post as a whole.. not bit by bit. In my post i didnt say anything about stoich vs power per fuel. Its pretty obvious that you'd have different afrs for different engine conditions and different afrs for different power outputs.. otherwise i wouldnt have wasted 3 sentences explaining the difference between the fuels after that.
You ******* retarded?
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Old 11-06-2013, 02:51 AM   #35
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You ******* retarded?
So, you feel at anytime I was talking about anything other than E85 vs gasoline?

My example of Nitromethane was as a fuel bringing its own oxygen source to get more power to simplify my statement that without MORE oxygen you do not make more power. Your stretch to claim I am talking about all possible fuels is way beyond reality. Your amendment later about your false fact of Power and stoich actually had nothing to do with anything I was saying. You merely added ..."per fuel" to wiggle out. I took your statement at face value. You took mine WAAAYY out of context by assuming I was talking about ANYTHING other than E85 and Gasoline. But thats ALL you have, your own tangient you created and have gotten stuck on.

As for "******* retarded", thats frustration on your part because I wont be lead of topic with hydrogen.
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Old 11-06-2013, 03:02 AM   #36
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Stoich of one fuel makes different power than stoich of another fuel.. just like max power afr of one fuel makes different power than max power afr of the other fuel. If you still dont get it then i'm done wasting my time.

I didnt say anything false.. you just read what you want to read.
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Old 11-06-2013, 03:20 AM   #37
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For a fuel to make more power it would have to carry its own source of oxygen.

Nitromethane for ex carries oxygen with it so you could essentially say it makes more power than gasoline.

E85 carries no oxygen and neither does pump gas....at correct mixtures they make equal amounts since all power comes from atmospheric oxygen and therefore since engine volume is constant power would be constant if both could run on optimal spark timing.
So, does anything in here not make sense?

You sliced one sentence out and ignored the rest. You took my response offensively when I said stoich and power do have commons...even though the next sentence I said "Of course this has nothing to do with Methanol vs gasoline that was initially discussed". You only became offensive and started making up lies about what I said thinking I was attacking you.

Can you really read that and not see E85 and Gasoline? You are stretching really far.

Without your Hydrogen you have nothing.

In your post you clearly stated "Well heres the thing the energy output and the stoich have nothing in common so treat them separately." Thats a statement in itself. Reading further did not cause this to have any other meaning then what was literally there.

Sorry...I cant stretch it thinner.
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Old 11-06-2013, 03:28 AM   #38
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Try pure hydrogen in ur "doesnt matter the fuel you'll make the same power" theory...
Here is your lie.

Again...where did I say "it doesnt matter the fuel youll make the same power"

This is your false statement.

I said for "A" fuel to make more power it would have to bring its own ogygen source. Meaning adding MORE fuel does nothing, the volume of air is the same and constant. I didnt say NO FUEL can make more power without its own oxygen supply.

Damn..I am falling alseep so good luck to you.
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Old 11-06-2013, 03:59 AM   #39
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Here is your lie.

Again...where did I say "it doesnt matter the fuel youll make the same power"

This is your false statement.

I said for "A" fuel to make more power it would have to bring its own ogygen source. Meaning adding MORE fuel does nothing, the volume of air is the same and constant. I didnt say NO FUEL can make more power without its own oxygen supply.

Damn..I am falling alseep so good luck to you.

So now you're saying whatever the afr is doesnt matter the power is constant? Keep editing them posts...


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Originally Posted by cukali View Post
I said for "A" fuel to make more power it would have to bring its own ogygen source. I didnt say NO FUEL can make more power without its own oxygen supply.
"I'm not saying you're full of it but you're full of it."
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Old 11-06-2013, 09:38 AM   #40
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I hate e85 debates. I really do, they're like the health care debate of the car world. Everyone involved just ends up looking like morons. We have simple facts, lambda 1 for E85 requires ~30% more fuel to achieve than lambda 1 for gasoline. Taking an optimized 93 octane tune, and without changing anything else besides optimizing target lambda for e85, the e85 car will make more power and more torque. After adding more spark advance to compensate for the slower burn of e85 and also to take advantage of the increased knock resistance, the car on e85 will make even more power and torque. The second part is non-debatable. Its the first part we are hung up on due to the energy content. Its entirely possible that the E makes more power because it burns slower and results in higher average cylinder pressures. I'm not going to drop $1200 on a transducer spark plug to find out.
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