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Old 06-09-2012, 09:08 PM   #1
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Default TSE 12+1 Trigger Wheel Questions

1. Stupid question, I'm sure, but which way does the wheel go on? Staring at the front of the motor (as if it were installed), does the +1 tooth go on the right or the left?
2. Anyone have a working AEM cam/crank setup using the 12+1 wheel I can copy? I'm currently using all the stock 99 stuff (4 pt 99 crank trigger wheel + stock cam angle sensor).

Thanks!
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Old 06-09-2012, 09:41 PM   #2
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The +1 tooth is at the 8 o'clock position.
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Old 06-09-2012, 09:54 PM   #3
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Here's the advanced pickup settings for an AEM using our 12+1 trigger wheel and a factory NB cam sensor.

If you are coming from a factory 4-tooth NB wheel, you can either multiply your phasing settings by 6 or use our settings. If you want to use our settings, make special note of the injector phasing pattern. Rover is wired to use injector drivers 5, 6, 7, and 8 for injectors 1, 2, 3, and 4 respectively, so you'll need to pay attention when you portal those numbers into your own map.

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Old 06-09-2012, 09:56 PM   #4
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Awesome! Thanks a ton Sav! Let's see if I can get my car to start later tonight...
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Old 06-10-2012, 12:24 AM   #5
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Hm. No start using my original phasing * 6... Cranks with no hint of combustion, then backfires when I stop cranking.

I'm using sequential spark and fuel, if that changes anything... I just took my original spark and fuel phasing and *6'd it. I'll try playing around with random phasing after dinner...

Edit: BTW it does get cam sync, with pretty consistent periods, so I'm assuming a phasing problem.
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Last edited by codingparadox; 06-10-2012 at 12:49 AM.
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Old 06-10-2012, 01:25 AM   #6
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I played around with the Ignition Sync setting to try to get something close to starting. Around 3-ish it attempts to diesel a bit after I stop cranking, at 18 it stops the cranking dead in its tracks with ignitions, but 12 and 9 and 6 and 0 don't seem to work at all. Tomorrow (it's getting a little late to be making loud backfires in my neighborhood) I'll try to get my GF to crank the car while I watch with a timing gun to try to find 10 degrees that way.
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Old 06-14-2012, 10:32 PM   #7
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Did you multiply your phasing by 6, and then use my sync values?

Using injector phase=11.22 and ignition sync = 8.64, you should use these numbers. I use cylinder numbers here because I don't know which drivers on your setup are wired to which cylinders.

Cylinder 1: Inj Tooth 6, Ign Tooth 0
Cylinder 2: Inj Tooth 0, Ign Tooth 6
Cylinder 3: Inj Tooth 12, Ign Tooth 12
Cylinder 4: Inj Tooth 18, Ign Tooth 18

The firing order is 1-3-4-2. The injection tooth pattern makes sense, then - 6, 12, 18, 0.

The ignition tooth pattern doesn't make sense because it is following the coils, not the cylinders. Coil driver 1 services cylinders 1 and 4, and coil driver 6 is a duplicate of coil driver 1 (for wasted spark cars). Coil driver 2 services cylinders 2 and 3, with coil driver 7 as the duplicate.

On fuel tooth 0, you're injecting on cylinder 2, and firing coil 1 (1/4). On fuel tooth 6, you inject on cylinder 1, and fire the coil for 2/3. On fuel tooth 12, you inject on cylinder 3, and trigger the coil for 1/4 again. On fuel tooth 18, you inject on cylinder 4, and trigger the coil for 2/3.

The important part is that the fuel goes in the order 1-3-4-2, and that the coils alternate between 1 and 2. If you get that right, and there are still very loud pops, flip the coil phasing 180 (trigger 1 where you were triggering 2 before) and it should fire right up.

Last edited by Savington; 06-14-2012 at 10:49 PM.
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Old 06-15-2012, 03:25 AM   #8
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I'm running full sequential fuel and spark (I have the 1ZZ COPs). In theory, the drivers should be direct (1=1, 2=2, 3=3, 4=4), so I'll have to try your setup tomorrow. I posted my current setup above, so it looks like I need to change my order.

If the firing order is 1342, shouldn't the ignition teeth match the injector teeth?..
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Old 06-15-2012, 06:16 PM   #9
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Had some more time today to play around. I got it started and purring like a kitten with this setup (and then used the ignition timing to fine tune 10 degrees to match, and got 8.53 ignition teeth, probably just some play in how my wheel tightened down compared to yours):



It looks like it's 180 degrees out of phase from yours, though. I'm using fully sequential spark, so I'm wondering if the wheel actually picks up a revolution behind (based on the cam angle sensor). If that's true, then I should probably switch my fueling to match the spark, I'd think?

Only weirdness is that now my tach isn't really working right. Above about 3000 RPMs, it drops to zero, and it's often fluttering between values while idling. That usually is like what happens when the coils are firing at odd timings, but the engine is running perfectly on all 4, so it seems like the problem might be elsewhere... The AEM shows the RPMs correctly on the laptop, but I'm worried that something is still up with the coils...
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Old 06-19-2012, 01:42 AM   #10
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Figured out the O2 sensor showing weird -- the AEM had decided to switch its O2 display units. A quick switch back fixed that.

However, the car is still not running terribly happily. The tach is consistently going to zero above 2400 RPMs or so, and driving it around on the street, it runs a little weird off boost and misfires a LOT at remotely higher RPMs on light boost. So, something's still weird with this setup.

I tried messing a bit with the injector phase, but it didn't have much effect. The car would blip for a second when I switched it and then pick up just fine and run the same on the new setting. I guess there's a reason batch fire works pretty well...

On the bright side, the car starts much much better now...

It's 9:40 and raining so I don't want to try any harder now (the car is LOUD with this exhaust and I have neighbors a few dozen feet away), but I think the next step is checking timing 1 cylinder at a time and see if I can find a cylinder that's doing something really weird... I realized the tach was showing about 10% high even when it was "working", so something's definitely weird with the ignition timing somehow... Is there any chance it's running like one tooth low or something like this?

I have my tooth control table with 12 5s (0-11), then 4, 3, 0 (all the way out starting at 14)...
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Old 06-19-2012, 11:04 PM   #11
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As suspected, and makes sense, I can set it 1-3-4-2 and add 12 to my ignition sync (so now it's at 20.53) and that starts and runs too, and makes a little more sense. However, obviously, the same major issue remains.

I spent some more time today looking at the AEM parameters while the car was running. I noticed it kept alternating between 0 sync errors and sync tooth = 7 and then getting a sync error (probably once a second or so) and going to sync tooth = 19 for one cycle.

Cam-crank period and crank tooth period were always very close to in line with each other (within 1%), T3PER usually stayed in line at low enough RPMs, but T2PER was pretty random. I think the biggest weirdness is that sync error swapping constantly. Any idea at all what could be causing that?

Next step is to check timing on all 4 cyls, but I need to wait for the car to cool down a bit and then bury myself in the engine bay to put a timing mark on the opposite side of the crank pulley to test cyls 2/3.
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Old 06-20-2012, 01:07 AM   #12
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Spent another couple hours messing with it. I tried pulling all 4 COPs and hooking up wires between it and the plugs so I could check timing on all 4, and all 4 were spot on most of the time, with the exception of a few little misfire blips while it was idling (which I've continued to notice once in a while). I locked the throttle to high enough to get it to idle around 3k, which is enough to get the tach to drop to 0, and I was still getting perfect timing on all 4, so I really have no idea what the hell is going on at this point.

I drove around and datalogged while it was misfiring. The only thing I could really tell was that the sync tooth was mostly locking at 19 while misfiring, and the T2PER wasn't flipping back and forth as often as it usually does. I'll post up a log from the laptop in a second. That implies there's maybe a cam sensor issue, which is more than a little weird. I had a brand new one I'd put in the car (since the old one seemed to be completely failing at really high temperatures in lincoln, and replacing it fixed it entirely) and tried swapping back to the old one, but had the same exact behavior. I'm not really sure what to do at this point other than swap back to the original crank wheel tomorrow night and see if everything works again on the old setup or if that setup's screwed now too...

Edit: Added the log to this post, standard AEM series 1 log that loads in AEMlog. All of the higher boost higher throttle acceleration sections above 3k are misfire sections (you can see the RPM go jaggy)...
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Old 06-23-2012, 08:21 PM   #13
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Well, I give up. Swapped back to the stock sensors, tried everything. Going back to the stock wheel and hoping that still works, and will run the car on that. Hope other people have better luck with this wheel. It'll be for sale shortly if anyone wants to try...
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Old 06-23-2012, 09:27 PM   #14
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Yep, switched back to the stock wheel (changing nothing else) and everything works like a charm (except that it takes annoyingly long to start, like normal with AEM on the stock wheel). If anyone has ideas for what else to try with the 12+1, I'm open to them, but for now I'm back on the stock setup. I don't know if the stock NB crank angle sensor just doesn't like something about the wheel when combined with the AEM or what, but it certainly didn't like it. Tach's back to working normally and everything. Shrug...
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:15 PM   #15
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Default 12 Tooth Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Here's the advanced pickup settings for an AEM using our 12+1 trigger wheel and a factory NB cam sensor.

If you are coming from a factory 4-tooth NB wheel, you can either multiply your phasing settings by 6 or use our settings. If you want to use our settings, make special note of the injector phasing pattern. Rover is wired to use injector drivers 5, 6, 7, and 8 for injectors 1, 2, 3, and 4 respectively, so you'll need to pay attention when you portal those numbers into your own map.

I am working on updating my map to accommodate the 12-tooth from Trackspeed and have what I am sure is a bonehead question. I have made most of the modifications noted, but I can only get the 4 teeth to show up on the tables for the inj. and ign. tooth tables. When I try to add through the tabs the other teeth are grayed out. Can someone provide some guidance to get these tables setup.
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