New Cheap Aluminum wing option
 

Hey guys, have any of you checked this out yet? Seems like a really nice/ inexpensive aero option. Almost as light as carbon, and they designed it to bolt up to Singular's uprights. I'm currently running a BBFW spoiler but would like to move up to something with a better drag/downforce ratio. Sub $400 for a 64" wing without mounts. What do you guys think?

9 Lives Racing

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...78f1886bb2.jpg

I saw that when they just posted up on FB.

Does Singulär even sell the uprights separately?

Wish you posted this 4 hours sooner. I just pulled the trigger on the bfw spoiler on my lunch break

they are not sold separately


I was just going to post this wing on here. I wonder how it compares to the apr gt250

Super pumped for this. Johnny mentioned the Elan wing in my dumbass post about cheap wings, and then he went balls to the wall coming up with this. Can't wait to get mine. Still gotta figure out how to get the Singular uprights without a wing... I might give them a call tomorrow to see if that's a possibility. And I want to figure out a gurney flap for it, the slot for it is a pretty trick design.

For those of you with home made endplates, what material/thickness did you use? Emilio complained about the wet carbon endplates on Bullet, so dry carbon is obviously the ticket... just not sure how thick is needed.

i've seen some use .09" aluminum for endplates

Very excited about the wing option, but singular uprights are not being sold seperately per what I'm reading on BookFace.

Has anyone actually confirmed with Singulär? They have certainly sold 'not on the menu' parts before. It would be a real bummer if not. Their APR setup is gorgeous, but out of reach for me. This seems doable... I can make uprights myself, but I like having the easy button option.

it was confirmed. Not sold separately

Well shit. That's too bad. I'm kinda surprised and not surprised at the same time. Thanks for confirming.

-Added make uprights to my ever growing list of things I need to do. This wing is just too cheap for me to pass up. I caught air twice at my last autox. I need aero (and to tweak suspension)

Apparently they will sell a full kit. So stands and endplates for $470. But not stands by themselves.

Not bad. I'd be getting bigger end plates than it comes with anyways

it comes with singular endplates tho??

I meant bigger end plates than the wing comes with from 9 Lives.

The Singluar plates seem plenty big to me.

oh. I guess it seems as though they were shipping out the singular ones with the kit.

To clear things up, we do not offer any portion of our wing kit separately. We had one person this last week contact us who confirmed they had a GT-250 airfoil at correct measurements/specs so we priced him our kit without the airfoil. We don't normally offer those pieces a la carte and it's possible that person what just trolling us for a price. Our wing kit is an extremely efficient package with significant downforce potential and premium quality top to bottom. We tested and developed our package for over a year before bringing it to market. When you buy our kit you know exactly what you're getting. Lap times drop by seconds and it wins races. The wing discussed here is a complete unknown product jumped into taking orders with as yet zero meaningful testing done on a production car chassis. The one real world sample of it being used on a Miata shows no significant improvement over a GTC-200 mounted high in the airstream (which is about as draggy as a school bus so a very low benchmark). We have not yet seen anything to suggest that this is an airfoil we would want to run ourselves, and that alone is the most significant litmus test here for whether a prospective product is something we want to pursue or support.

taken from 9 lives site

No disrespect to Ryan and Singular, but this is a game changer for me. We race in ChampCar, which has a No Carbon Elements rule, which left us in the situation of either Foam Core/Glass or a 3d printed wing.

I don't think this wing is meant to compete directly with something like Singular's GT250 package. Singular's rear wing is tried and true setup, it's the go-to piece for a rear wing on a NA/NB for 99% of it's intended users that want to win. To me this seems like an inexpensive option for a rear wing, not an alternative solution to a high-end(for miatas) rear wing package.

I suspect there will be more data collected on this foil and will even be shared! Because that's what we do in this nice little community of ours. I have a feeling it might even end up on a PTE-trim car for science. :party:

Agreed ^

That's kind of what I'm thinking. This isn't for the person who's trying to optimize their setup to 100%. This is for the person who wants an affordable and slightly DIY option for a track car or budget series. I think Singular got thrown into the converation because the mounts used during "testing" were similar and people assumed they were going to be getting something to compete with those kits. To be honest, I was like most people and didn't know the difference between the GT250 and GT200's until today. So I could see where it quickly got confusing.

Ryan - I have several Singulär products and they are all excellent. I'm not considering this a competitor to your wing. I simply cannot justify/afford your wing at my income level, and my driving level. My previous option for aero was "I can't afford a wing". Hopefully no hard feelings for posting this up.

Will there be any wing stands that 9 Lives Racing will provide in the future to sell a complete wing ready to bolt on? Also if we could get some real world results on a miata that might help the product a bit.

I too also have been very happy with all my singular products.

Why haven't Chump Racers embraced the 3-D printed wings? light, very strong, cheap, easy to modify design. I think an entire print wold be like 60 bucks worth of filament.

As I said before, that is an option

I was about to pull the trigger on a printer this week, when I saw this.

Aero isn't something that has been fully explored in ChampCar yet, but like any series, speed creep is real, and aero will be the next avenue.

I have been messing with printers for a while now. Hands down, the PRUSA MK3 is the best bang-for-the-buck printer. Mine sits in a closet making parts and generates income..

If I sold stands and endplates for something that would make people eventually graduate up to my fancy wangs I would be pleased.

Do these help?

https://www.rtheorymotorsports.com/s...gt-wing-stands

Designed to work with the 9 lives racing wing.

I'm trying to understand the business reason behind not selling the stands.

I would need a 4" front splitter to balance out this wing, right?

Actual cost of printing them would be my guess. I don't know of anyone with a printer that can do a full wing in one print. I would be hesitant to trust gluing together a wing and expecting it to hold up. But I am no expert.

Allthread through the middle and epoxy sections together. Idea stolen from Madjak. I will be working on one very soon. printer is making money ATM.

That may work. The other cool chumpcar aero cheat is using a NA headlight motor to make the wing active and come down when you hit the brakes,

We have an old APR aluminum wing from a friends Miata we are going to test on our ChAmp Car in a few weeks and compare it to a spoiler. If it works, we'll probably pony up for an 9LR element.

That was my thought with this. With all of the COT wings snapped up, there's no decent entry level wing that you can start with before graduating up to the big boy wang.

Nice find! I was worried about the cutouts affecting drag, but they also sell them without the cutouts.

I thought he used aluminum tubing and threaded the ends, not allthread. Lighter and stiffer than allthread.

Sending PM

That sure is a pretty wang you got there.

Do you guys thing it would be beneficial to run the BFW Spoiler under the 9LR wang. Would probably have to trim the outside edges of the spoiler im guessing to clear the mounts then just run a real low AOA.

Probably more beneficial at that point to sell the BFW, and pool that money with what you'd spend on the 9LR setup, work one weekend of OT, and get the Singular setup.

There are definitely benefits of running the BFW spoiler at a lower AOA under a wing, reduced drag with similar downforce levels. How much? Not sure, find out and let us know! Moti insists it's a good combo and worth it to run under a wing, all of his builds either do this, or at least have some sort of lower AOA spoiler (whether it's his hinged version or not) trailing off the trunk.

Im salary no OT ever. I ordered the spoiler the day before this post and it gets delivered tomorrow. The singular wing has been on the list for a while but was considering the same combo with spoiler based on what Moti, Emilio and The Pass have done on their cars. I am by no means an aero expert.

If I made that much I'd have a TSE kit on a built motor and a damn trailer to haul my car with the Singular wing on it. The Singular wing is literally double what my rent is. Living in a state with a low cost of living is nice, except you get paid equivalent to your low cost of living.

Your situation maybe different. But the point was that (and who knows, maybe there's analysis out there to prove me wrong) you'd be better office spending marginally more money for a Singular setup than BOTH a BFW and 9LR. Feel me?

I say that as someone who has an "alternative" wing setup, myself.

But i also believe in "if i can save X amount, i can also save Y amount, it just might take longer."

I agree completely with the above. My question was more geared towards aerodynamic benefit rather than money. Would you see more aero gains by using both similar to what many have done or would it just not be worth it to make the Spoiler and Wing play nice together.

Ah, my bad. Makes sense.

I made my own BBFW style spoiler, so I wouldn't be able to sell it for much, so I might as well run both together. I totally get your point though. In my case I'm going to go with 9LR simply because the additional money saved could go towards other parts the car needs to balance things out, and to grasp other low hanging (performance) fruit.

I think I'm going to run both at some point, mostly because I don't want to run a big wang on the street. Jack up the spoiler a bit on the street to balance out the splitter a bit, then lower it down and bolt on the wing for the track.

THIS. Exactly my thought. Seems like a really good way to go.

Or just wait for a used 9LR wing to show up in a "For Sale" section ;)

I'm in a similar boat. Currently have a BFW spoiler and its not enough to balance out my 4" splitter. Wouldn't mind being able to lower the AOA on the BFW spoiler, install an airfoil, and go for track days. I don't necessary mind having a big wing on the car for the street, but I'm guessing it'll give unwarranted attention

Edit: 9LRs CFD was done on a car (LMP car) and APR's was done in free air, so this is not a true comparison...

So I did a bit more reading, This wing may be a nice entry level option, but it is nowhere near the GT250. It's not the 80% performance at less cost option I was hoping it was.

Elan's testing:

• 150mph@15*AOA DF lbs-250 drag-58
• 150mph @7*AOA DF lbs-140 drag-37
• 150mph @4*AOA DF lbs-70 drag-17.5

APRs charts are below:

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...af797546ed.png

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...66378449ec.png

The 9LR wing is a 4.3 Lift to drag ratio for comparison. Even the GTC200 completely destroys the 9LR wing in lift to drag.

The comparison on CFD data isn't completely valid, as the APR wing was modeled hanging in free air, while the Elan wing was mounted on the back of an NP01. Not defending the 9LR wing, but just pointing out it's not an apples to apples comparison.

Cool, thanks guys. I'm a complete aero noob. Trying to learn as I go.

9LR did state that their wing produced more downforce at 2° AoA than their old GTC200 did at 15°AoA based off of how much the car started pushing, and that completely contradicts what I was seeing from the CFD. That being said, the GTC-200 is 60.5" and the wing on the 9LR car was 66"... Apples to oranges all around

CFD in general is very inaccurate without good correlation, and is most useful in a comparative sense. If someone did a CFD comparo of both wings in the same environment, same boundary conditions, etc, the percent difference would be valid. But to use one persons CFD to say it makes "xx" amount of downforce, and someone else's CFD to say theirs makes "yy" amount of downforce doesn't mean a whole lot. There's a lot of apples to oranges in the aero world.

Johnny's back-to-back real-world test is a better approach, because straight line speed and aero balance is a very good determining factor. The downside to the testing is that the GTC200 was being used out of it's element. 3D wings aren't magic wings that have great L/D's. The attractiveness to 3d wings is that the center section contours to the air flowing from the rear window area. So you're taking advantage of the downward sloping air on the window, and the straight air on the sides, maximizing airflow around the whole width of the wing. When a 3d wing is placed up in "clean" air like in the test, if the outside edges are angled at an appropriate AOA, the center section will be producing lift and counteracting the downforce on the outer edges. If the center section is at an appropriate AOA, the inside will be producing excessive drag. If it's somewhere in the middle, the wing will just be meh. A GT250 would've been a more appropriate contender (or a GTC200 mounted appropriately).

When did that happen?

From their store and FB page:

"The first test of the 'big wang' at Road Atlanta, the wing was set to 2 degrees of angle of attack. The results? We increased top speed to 159mph (157 mph with the 3d carbon Wing), and made so much down-force the car under steered heavily, something that the 3d wing can't do at a 15 degrees angle of attack. After setting our personal best lap time at Road Atlanta (1:32.85)"

A couple of mph improvement over a GTC-200 in free air (they confirmed it was mounted high, same height as the 9LR wing). Track temps were the same both days. The time barely changed, but they said the car was pushing a ton, so it's a bit of a toss up. It is cheaper than the GTC-200 though...


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...b4f6e8fc13.png

Aero merits of said big wang aside, 160mph at road Atlanta in a Miata is insane.