2002 VVT swap into 1990 NA with MS3
 

Well it seems there's no better place for a swap thread than here. I'll be sure to keep my nomex on, cause let me tell you I'll be asking some pretty flame worthy questions. :noob::vash: I'll continue to do a lot of reading.

Luckily for me Curly will be helping a lot with the swap and tuning.

Here's the recipient. 1990 base car, about 220lbs with most of the interior, non A/C, properly (cool project)depowered rack
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1406921372
140,xxx miles. Koni/GC, autox, track, street
use, blah blah.

Attachment 239094

1.6 going away, no issues, little drop of oil, still runs strong. Raceland FTW.
Attachment 239095

Curly and Greddygalant's newly rebuilt 2002 VVT engine is sitting in my garage.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1406914425

So I need to come up with a swap part list.
MS3 Basic on order with Rev.
AEM AFR gauge delivered.

I need to start ordering other items.
I'll start with the basics of what I know, but don't know.
Header- 1.8 but from a 94-97 or 01-05 with EGR?
Cat or test pipe- my cat now is a fairly new Magnaflow, can this be used or modified? If not, 1.8 cat? and that will bolt to my RB midpipe and muffler?
Coolant hoses?
Plugs and wires- my 1.6's are fairly new, swap over?
Air intake
Alternator and water pump pulley- which year?
Garage Star - Alternator and Water Pump Pulley Set for 1.6L and 1.8L Miata

Curly recommends waiting for the MS3 to come in and get the 1.6 and wideband installed and running the car before doing the swap.

When we pull the engine, here's a few things I want to address.
-Remove all airbag wiring and sensors.
-Find the source of coolant smell when driving, heater core pipes?
-1.6 clutch and Fidanza flywheel, reusable or not
-Cleaning engine bay

You need a 99-00 fuel rail, re-use your 1.6L fuel damper; mount it upside down and bend one of the barbs slightly and lightly.

You need a 94-97 header, I highly suggest picking up an RB. No idea about cat/test pipe and the catback. Don't worry about EGR, just block it off.

Use the NB2 coil near plug setup. Parts are cheap and less prone to failure. There are resources out there to use your ignitor with the NB2 coils.

Air intake: go on siliconeintakes.com, buy some elbows and aluminum pipe. Tuned length is between 19-23" from TB to air filter. Pick up whatever AEM dryflow that fits.

You should swap over to the NB throttle cable. It's 30 bucks and you don't need to worry about goofy adapter plates.

Thanks! Looks like RB 94-97 is back ordered.
First part of delivered, yeah.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1406921324

Jesus, my photos are huge.

Here's the build sheet on the fresh engine. Doppleganger had this engine turbo'd in his car, then it went kablooey.
0 miles.
(From Curly's message.)
First, the head. It was cleaned, but not painted. Shaved to .015" under factory minimum, for increased compression. Valve seals were replaced, and guides were repaired/replaced. Head was then pressure tested.
Rods were replaced with used OEM ones, and the block, oil pan, and oil pump were washed for assembly.
High temp sparkly black paint went on the block. An entire OEM FelPro gasket kit was bought and used the entire time. ACL race bearings and OEM mazda piston rings were used. The ACL race bearings like slightly more frequent oil changes, so it'd have to be kept close to 3000 miles between changes.

Resize your photos, dude.

All 1.8s had EGR, but either way we're blocking it off.

The cat cannot be reused, I believe it's the front flange angle of the 1.8s that's different from 1.6 exhausts, so everything after the cat should bolt up, but the header and test pipe or cat needs to come from a 1.8.

We're flipping your mixing manifold and eliminating a lot of potential leak points, but silicone heater hoses wouldn't be a bad idea.

For now, yes. However as others have said I'd love to see you using COPs eventually, but not the '01+ for tach reasons. We can drill out your valve cover and use the same Toyota COPs I use. We'll use your 1.6 wires for now.

As Dunning Kruger Affect said, we'll scrounge together a decent cold side intake, much like Nail's, if you glance at recent Lexi updates you'll see it.

'01 pulleys. Martin and I successfully modified Laz's 1.6 alternator (which you have to use) to use the 1.8 ribbed pulley. So we'll do the same with your engine with the MSM's alternator pulley, and the crank and water pump pulley that are currently bolted on.

He has a '99 fuel rail. I was unaware the 1.6 FPR would work, I guess I didn't want to bend it. I'll give it a shot, we already got him a '94-'97 FPR though.

As stated above, I'd love to do this as it's a quick bolt on thing once you source the parts, but you can't make the tach work without some work. Although I'm sure Reverant's MS3 has a tach output.

Forgot about this. I'd plan on buying an NB throttle cable Ryan. Martin swapped the MSM one into Laz in no time. Yours is probably decaying by this point anyways.

Awesome Josh, you are a multi-quoting machine.

Needed
NB throttle cable
94-97 header and cat

I didn't see a way to have the 94-97 FPR clear the IM when I did my swap. Savington and the rest of the VVT swap folks have the same exact setup.

The 1.6L FPR is mounted upside down, you can see it in this pic:
Attachment 239090

You can see how I routed the return line here:
Attachment 239091


e: shit, looks like I have a perfect picture of fuel rail
Attachment 239092

Yeah the vacuum barb is in a better place, we cut the second brace off the top half of the intake to clear it. I may try the 90-93 fpr on his.

Josh, can you elaborate on the motor mounts? I keep seeing that I need 1.8 mounts, my Mazdaspeed 1.6 mounts are practically new.
Do you alter them in some way?

No, the rubber parts are identical '90-'05, the metal parts are engine specific, and already installed on the engine.

Excellent.

Here you can see a new motor mount sitting next to an old mount bolted to the metal part I'm referring to. The rubber part is the mazdaspeed part we'll reuse.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1406997044

So RacingBeat is backordered on the 94-97 header until about 3rd week of September. Sounds like I can still go with a 99-00 header since we are just plugging the EGR.
But I may just get a cheap OBX/Raceland. D:

Wait for the Racing Beat header, OBX and Raceland stuff often have fitment issues.

Good to meet you last night Ryan and enjoyed getting beat by you at Sykart too :party:

I think this is the type of header you should get:

http://flyinmiata.com/turbos/images/IMG_4002_300.jpg

:laugh:

Current plan for the header: OBX.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1407283758

And Theseusesese's oil cooler going in my car...

And a little splitter action?

Yes, that's the splitter/undertray Mitch water jetted at his work. I'm going to try and mount it for the 18th, but it takes a lot of fiddling to get it fitted correctly, and in a way that won't fall off. Martin, and of course Mitch also has one.

Nice.

I don't see too many sources for the NB throttle cable.
I see a couple used on ebay for about 17 bucks.
I would imagine they would be sufficient??

Race clutch line for clutch cable replacement?

http://www.jscspeed.com/catalog/Stai...utch_Line_5683

And Cat for 94-97?
http://www.jscspeed.com/catalog/Mazd...zda_Miata.html

Who the fuck is JSC speed. Order an intelligently designed product from an MT vendor.

Bam:

Trackspeed Engineering

As for the cat, there's no way I'm tuning that engine with anything but a test pipe. That being said, you really only need the cat for emissions. Save $40, shop the bay:

Mazda Miata MX5 1994 1997 V4 1 8L Direct Fit Catalytic Converter | eBay

So who makes this mystery cat?

So you want me to get a test pipe and cat?

Yes, I do. Would you really go through all this for a performance N/A build and run a cat?

Btw, Goodridge and Magnaflow are fairly common names regardless of the vendor.

I'll be interested to see how this goes, as I'm picking up an 03 engine in a couple weeks and ordering my MS3. Good luck!

NC10-41-660A
CABLE,ACCEL.
The regular price is $40.99
The sale price is $24.59

Decided on a cheapie OBX header, Racing Beat is on backorder.
Attachment 239075
Attachment 239076
From Rev's emails, starting today he is back to work. So hopefully my MS3 will be on the to do list.

Aren't engine stands nice to work on?

I talked to the main dude at KO racing while Ed's car was there. He dyno'd a VVT engine that the guy said would make 140 hp. It ended up making 128hp. Yikes! That will hopefully not be this engine.

He charges $60/hour for dyno time. Wanna see what your 1.6 is currently making for a comparison? That's $60 well spent. And I bet it'd be cheaper for just 3 quick runs. Most people do that in the $25-30 range, but I could be wrong. Give him a call!

Funny you say that because I was was contemplating on doing that, just for comparison sake.

Call him up, he's super nice.

I'm using generalized pronouns because I completely forget his name.

It's always a good idea to get a relationship with your dyno owner anyways. The more they like you, the more knowledge and experience they can help put into your tune. I just mash the keyboard.

You guys have cheap dyno time up there. Around here the only times its that cheap is when some local shop is doing some sort of get together or event or something, otherwise its double that

They're usually $25 for 3 pulls for a coupon deal.

His name is Kris. Guy works super hard. Dropped my car off at his shop last night at 10:15 and not only was he still there working, but he was super nice still and took the time to chat with me about plans for today.

He charges $60 for an hour of dyno time or three pulls, doesn't matter. You want on the dyno, it's $60.

How much loss do you see with say power steering, a/c?

Was that 128hp with a stand alone, I/H/E?

ps and ac will net a whopping 1-2hp? lol

Who cares with a turbo. 1psi more and you've made up for the loss 2 or 3 times.

Bolt ons and standalone, yes. I don't think this one will be that low, I'm guessing the vvt wasn't working? That or something was majorly wrong.

Why do you guys assume a i/h/e vvt engine should make 140whp?
Because emilio did it on some of their cars?
Pretty sure vvt does nothing for peak power gains on a n/a car (at least significantly).
Variation in output can easily vary 13hp between different cars, dyno's, locations, days, etc.

I dunno, just seems like everyone is stuck on numbers when we start talking about this stuff. Like 140 would be amazing, and 128 is crap. Which, to me, is funny.

Nope, that's why I want a 1.6 base run

atta boy :)

Curly just wants me to dyno 93hp on my 1.6, then 130hp would AMAZING.

lol... truth.

Then we'll also have a direct comparison to my car. Start building the KO Racing Miata Library....

That's actually pretty typical dynojet output with an ECU on gas, assuming a square top. E85 bumps that to about 146-148whp. BP4W stock intake cam has a bit more duration between .150~.300 so it make a bit more on top than a stock BP6D head.

For a 5 spd or NASA PT build (N/A), we like the BP6d had fro the broader powerband. Running a 6 spd with a mildy built engine, the BP4W with a 5A cam is a tick better because the area under the curve is covered by the gear ratio gaps of the 6 spd. Run a mildly built BP6D on E85 with a 6spd x 4.3 and you often have a choice of two gears for a given turn.

^^Thanks for the info Emilio.

Ryan it is mandatory you get before/after dyno runs on your car at the same dyno.

For science.

Yes! for Sceince!

Trying to decipher through all these clutch combos for my mild numbers

From what I can collect from Emilio and Eddie at AR, go with a 1.6 clutch combo. Eddie even recommended staying with stock OEM replacement and going with a lightened flywheel. I don't see FI in the too near future.
Advisable?

Stock replacement with LTW fly will be perfect for your needs.

1.6 or 1.8?

I'd go 1.6

Items that I ordered this week.
94-97 metal core cat from Enthuza
Miata Catalytic converter

NB throttle cable from Planetmiata
Planet-Miata.com - Your #1 source for Mazda Miata new and used parts and accessories.

Trackspeed's clutch cable
Trackspeed Engineering

Still need to determine clutch combo.

I dunno, clutches are definitely one of those "do it once, do it right" jobs. You don't want to have to drop your transmission again.

949's 1.6 flywheel is $299+shipping, and an OEM 1.6 replacement clutch is another $100-200+shipping. So $400-500+$50 shipping (estimated).

Now you're only $100-200 off FM's happy meal price, with 2-3x the torque holding capacity. Although $100-200 isn't something to shrug off. Just something to consider. You will enjoy the LW flywheel and stock 1.6 clutch the most, as long as it holds all the power you'll ever make with with this setup. (AKA: never any FI)

So since I was in need of tires i decided to go bigger than my 15x7s. I went with these, nor my car but same specs.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1409113062
15x9 TRM C3M with RS 3 V2. 225/45/15. Really like the look of these, a bit heavier but whatev, and the price.
So meaty.

They'll look good. I had anthracite 15X9 C3Ms on my '00 turbo and liked them.

Mmm. Meaty.

I can't get it into my head yet how the extra sensors connect to the MS3 when you add something like a vvt engine to a non-vvt car. It sounds simple enough from what I read, just can't picture it. My project is a 99 car with an '04 motor in it after the 99 blew up.

Sounds like yours is coming along well enough - good luck with it. Probably going to lurk through this threat quite a bit.

Rear stays the same. You pull a plug out and screw in the coolant gauge sensor from the 1.6. You take the '01 ECU coolant sensor out, and screw in the 1.6 ECU coolant sensor.

Small modification keeps the 1.6 alternator bolted to the VVT engine, so that's PNP. 1.6 oil pressure sensor screws in where the 1.8 dummy unit was, so the OP gauge works.

He has pigtail harness with ~3' of wiring for the crank sensor, TPS, VVT actuator, IAC, and NB style CAS. This will all be wired to a plug on Rev's MS3 to control the VVT.

I made a small bracket to mount the 1.6 coils on top of the VVT valve cover. This is probably the biggest area for improvement, but I'll let him find '01+ COPs or modify the valve cover for other COPs if/when he desires. For now it'll be PNP, we won't have to mess with the ignitor wiring, and his tach will work. All pluses while we change so many other things.

Looks like I may see the MS3 in about 2 weeks. Got the NB throttle cable and Trackspeed ' s clutch cable in. Man, I ordered from TSE late one afternoon and it shipped that day. Super fast, thanks looks like a nice piece.
I need to piece together a cold side intake to temporarily work on the 1.6 for MS3 and wideband install. Same intake will work for the 1.6 and VVT I have been told.
Enthuza cat should be coming too.
Decided to get a new wheel/tire setup and get more meat under there. It feels fantastic.
The much loathed TR's C3M 15x9 +36 with 225/45/15 RS3s.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1409516460
Attachment 238977
Suspension changes coming too.

Nail's old DEI wrapped intake should work, and it already has an AIT in it, so you can save the one (I think) you're getting with the MS3 for a "real" intake. We've already proven it chokes off the 1.6 at higher RPMs, stealing about 8hp from your 1.6's potential, I'd imagine it'd do the same on the VVT. But, it'll get your car running on the VVT until you get one of the carbon fiber ones made from that guy here on the forum. Cause that's the best of the best :)