EFR 7163 powering a MSM via Motec M130
 

Sort of new around here but figured I would start this build as a log for my MSM that sat in a corner for the past 3-4 years. I am by no means a fabricator so don't freak out if you notice work not up to your standards. I figured I would relieve stress from the day time job by spending time with this car and trying things I haven't attempted in the past.

The car in its glory days
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...13d3e93c14.jpg


Now (it turned into a parts donor for the friends around the area).
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...858f296ad4.jpg

Placement of the turbo with twin scroll billet collector
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...c128a6605c.jpg

Engine management for this build
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...007dd7faf8.png

PWR Nascar oil cooler test fitment
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...6fea383b3d.png

Motec display
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...3c42e1d193.png

Accusump setup and random oil fittings
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...947c24fcdc.png

Intake manifold flanges in case I failed at the fabwork :giggle:

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...2f72f31f31.png

Got my intrest. Are you doing single or twin scroll

Builds like this make me wish I had better fabrication skills and tools (and money)

Twin scroll.

You have my attention. I was going to do a 7163 twin scroll but changed my plan and am now building everything with plans of the 6758 TS. What internal work are you doing to the motor?

The engine has over sized valves, grinded cams, ported head, high comp pistons, H beam rods, race bearings. It's pretty much blue printed including balancing the rotating assembly and WPC coating on the critical components. Pictures show the spare engine used for mock up purposes.

Planning on going air cooled with that oil cooler?

7163, Hi-compression. what the ell is going on here? I feel like im missing the deets.

Negative. Car will get a front tube frame to accomodate all supporting components.

Trial and error. Race it, fix it. Repeat.

Plug-and-play harness ready for installation.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...4a79fd1057.jpg

Yusssss

sub'edalongadingdong

Very interested to see how the TS performs for you, I wasn't aware the 6758 had a TS option that was actually available finally!

I was going to do the 7163 TS but changed the plan to do the 6758 TS for a direct A-B comparison on a vvt motor. The whole for science and data thing.

This is very interesting. Exciting actually.
I don't like the turbo placement, but everything else sounds really intense.

Sub'd

cool build. who's billet collector are you using?

They are manufactured by Elmer Racing. Also, known for manufacturing full billet engines for WRC and WTAC (Thor)

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...e1cd8fa7e0.jpg

wow :drool:

1500HP twin EFR turbo base engine right there Saw a dyno of it recently. Can't think of a better way to spend 125K :)

Subscribed, build looks sick so far

Quite excited on how they do this year. The RP968 is such an inspirational build!

subd for what looks to be an epic build

DBW, traction control and native integration for a sequential trans are the main features. There are a lot more technical features that will be benefitial during the tuning process but in a nutshell you are comparing a motorsport grade management system versus a tuner solution.

Sub'd for SBGarage. You guys have worked on miata a few times already.

Which gearbox will you run? The Megasquirt has been working with a lot of gearboxes, including Samsonas and other very high end gearboxes.

Looked up that Elmer engine. Nuts. 4,000 cc 4 cylinder. They really need to improve their videos though, if they intend to use them as marketing.

So you'll be doing dbw on a bp? And running seq trans?

Yes, I reviewed the MoTec M130 specs (and price, ouch) and saw these features listed. Not sure they are applicable to this build.

I am curious as to your statement..." There are a lot more technical features that will be beneficial during the tuning process...".
Can you elaborate?

Is this your BIAS because of a quick Google search or previous experience about tuning cars with this engine management to notice the technical difference? Have you also investigated the firmware packages extending up to the developer features?

I don't see any bias, he was just asking a question. We all know the motec is a serious piece of hardware, we're just curious if you're really putting it to use in a miata, and how.

Most of us get that Motec is a better platform at almost 2x the cost. The main question is what additional benefits are there that makes it worthwhile? Is a Miata able to utilize the additional inputs/outputs that Motec provides that MS does not? You said the tuning aspect is better. What makes it better? Is it the firmware that Motec provides? Better coding to make things run better? Not being biased, just genuinely curious.

Let me point out a personal opinion before we derailed away from the point of this thread. Just because you can get a solution to work doesn't necessarily mean it's the best and it should be a universal application. Hardware characteristics on a Motec unit and also Firmware features is a topic that deserves its own thread for those that are so curious. I would suggest reading the complete public documentation manual for further judgment in terms of ROI; it's fun if you like technical things.

Anyhow, one of the main reasons why I picked up a Motec unit is because I can apply traction control strategies by utilizing a combination of wheel and driveshaft speed sensors. I plan to import raw data from the Motec unit into Matlab and implement a piece of code for slip values showing the highest acceleration values at different throttle position sensors. You can also extend this by adding GPS positioning data to control boost control settings and cross reference them with your TC mapping. I don't plan to meet a specific racing criteria for this build. In all honesty, it's a fun experimental project for pure joy. I have always been curious about the tech packages found in top level motorsports cars. It's a fascinating and the fact that I can't afford any of that got me annoyed for many years so I figured why not bring my ghetto version of it into a car I own.

I could go on and on about describing other features where megasquirt falls behind but I don't want to end up sounding like a sales dude bashing on MS. I have been told moderators are pretty agressive on this board so I don't want to turn this thread into what could look like a marketing campaign. I noticed the dude's entry with the cool tubular turbo manifold picture is already gone.

In term of the powertrain, I originally ordered a custom Quaife sequential for my ND. My ND won't be finished for a very long time since I plan to retrofit a M150 but I don't know a lot about DI implementation. It took over a year to fully implement the mapping for a turbo kit via the OEM ECU. I am honestly not confident on the project so I figure take my sweet ass time and order a spare bellhousing adapter and retrofit the same transmission into my MSM.

This is one of the times i'd hope the mods won't bash you for talking about the additional features Motech has that MS does not. I can't imagine a majority of us over here would spend the extra dough for it even if it was worthwhile...Sticker shock when I saw it.

You can always send me a private message :)

I spent some time running an initial mock up for the turbo manifold. I am quite focused on making this setup removable on the fly. I am hoping to come across quick disconnect fittings for the turbo lines so the whole setup including the manifold, downpipe and intake pipe comes out on the fly.

That Elmer billet merge/flange is definitely a beautiful piece but it's also big $$$ (250euro). I'm going with this piece from Treadstone. Investment cast stainless. I hope I don't regret my decision!

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...9b26edf7b8.jpg


Twin Scroll Merge Collector, 304 Stainless Steel- TREADSTONE PERFORMANCE

Can't go wrong with treadstone stuffs!

Can MS do closed loop? If not then meh.



Awesome build by the way. Subscribing. I'd like to do Motec in my RX8 one day, the traction control is awesome and GPS based control would be cool to play with. Maybe active aero.

I have not seen an application so far where the gearbox wouldn't work properly with the MS3, like I said, with gearboxes from Samsonas, Sadev and Quaife.

Kind of dodged the question there eh?

I'll assume that it's a basic ignition/fuel cut on a time delay. Also I don't think you can input a raw strain guage 0-5v signal either if I was reading that correctly in the Quaife thread. One other thing that Motec can do is a power reduction for shifts instead of an abrupt cut as well.

This website actually explains it pretty well with data logs and everything.

Geartronics - Sequential gearbox electronic systems - Closed loop system

Let's all just relax. The question about motec has been answered, there is no need for hostility on either side, or to derail his thread.

Noted.

Are you gonna run a custom intake manifold? I noticed you bought intake flanges. If so, I don't know much about what makes a "well designed" intake manifold considered well designed. What's the primary benefit compared to a over the shelf manifold? Either-way, i'm looking forward to the fabrication of it.

​​​​​​I think the over the shelf manifolds outcase poor design philosophies that make everything else around it hard to service. Also, I don't plan to use a Miata TB. Fabrication will need to take place at some stage.

My plan IF I ever get my car settled and if I don't sell it would be C6 or Volvo V70 pedal with a audi (Bosch 0280 750 009) throttle body pared w/ skunk 2 manifold. Unneeded and unnecessary but seems fun to add.

Thank you so much for the feedback sir!

Don't use the VW thottle body, which is pretty bad and breaks down.

Do get the RX-8 throttle body, which is large-ish (70mm) and has contactless position sensors (Hall) inside for increased reliability.

for a big power build and DBW, get something like a VDO throttle body from a chysler/dodge hemi. they are 80mm but with dbw that really doesn't matter. you can program throttle opening over rpm so it really doesn't matter how big it is if the PID's are good. 2500rpm you will only need like 20% throttle opening (set that to 90% pedal) and linear down to 0 from there... perfectly drivable car with zero chance of intake losses and advanced filling of the plenum when you are fully open.

Are you shooting for an equal length twin scroll manifold? How are you measuring runner lengths?

I don't know about the Chrysler TBs, however many of the VW/Audi TBs are also VDO and crappy. So beware.

That's what I purchased to use on an old project. they don't seem to have any issues from what I could read.

point of the post was more along the lines of - - get the largest throttle body, there are almost no negative impacts from a larger TB when you go dbw being that you can tune it to how you like to drive and tune throttle plate over rpm against throttle pedal position so its still drivable - -

I narrowed down into two options in terms of the DBW setup because I already have the calibration files, GM style or a CRV unit. The GM style is pretty fast between 10-90% and their response time is somewhere around 20ms. I will do more digging when I am the stage to make the call.

Fine idle control is almost impossible on large throttle bodies on small engines.

even more reason to use a powerful ecu.

closed loop throttle control for idle and fine ignition control tables specifically really make this a non-issue.