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Grabber - nowhere fast
Long time lurker here, with the random silly questions. I wanted to start a build thread, not to show anything off, but for the resources that may be available. If anyone has some solid suggestions, please feel free to suggest. I’m coming in this thread super late on my build, but I think I’m a bit past the noob stage, but not far past. Lets get get into the basics of where I’m at. 1.6 car when I got it, https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...6b6ddd60c.jpeg I scabbed together a build build with a 2560, with all the basic build knowledge I gathered up here and elsewhere. I fabbed up everything I could but went with an Artech dp and 3” exhaust. Obvious things were done along the way, pretty close to what everyone on here says the list and procedures should be. So here was the 1.6 in its glory, which of course was sort lived. https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...7ed45e0f8.jpeg So short lived because I decided to vent the block by snapping a rod in half. I thought I was around 210-215 ft. lbs. when it let go, so I don’t believe the 1.6’s can reliably handle 250 ft. lbs. with any consistency anymore. So here is the first look and the evidence. I was working off virtual dyno,so it was a surprise for me to vent the block. I was trying to stay with a reasonable tune. I thought I was, lol. https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...ecd732439.jpeg I knew what I was getting into I had a 1.8 sitting on the side which I was hoping to slowly rebuild, it was pushed up. So this is the motor I ran into, ‘96 https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...adb866b40.jpeg I’ll upload my progress in the next few posts along with the goals and direction of the build. |
windshield washer delete AND a non broken dipstick!? too cool for me :cool:
and where da brake booster? I'll be following along with you... but I hope my 1.6 doesn't decide to gain any extra holes >_< |
I planned on doing a rods only motor, but as I tore into the motor it looked as if someone had been in before me. I chose to go a little deeper into the pocket and build a solid bottom end. Had eagle rods, arp studs, got new bearings, super tech pistons. Went with lower compression as where I live it just isn’t available enough to justify higher compression with e85. Doing all this ran me tight on money, so I’ll be keeping the head off the ‘96. I keep telling myself a solid 250hp is fine, but I wanted the option to grow if I wanted to. That and I still have my 5 speed. Just some random pics along the way. The last picture is mocking up the motor while I wait for parts to come in. https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...e5b170602.jpeg https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...6b6661bcf.jpeg https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...c472720f8.jpeg |
Rebuilt the head, more for experience than anything else. I tried my hand at a diy port/polish. More of a polish, I didn’t want to change shape, just smoothing the bowls out, and cleaning up the casting. Don’t beat me up to bad, I’m just learning here. I’m really excited how much I’ve learned along the way. I figured worse case it’s only a bp05 Head. https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...5133dbfb5.jpeg https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...bc7d814a2a.png https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...1fa619f10.jpeg https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...c3290da07.jpeg https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...fbd4fc9f6.jpeg https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...70e408ad9.jpeg https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...90c24b090.jpeg https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...c57574cc1.jpeg https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...12cd4965f.jpeg https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...cdaeeb16e.jpeg |
Originally Posted by 90LowNSlo
(Post 1500970)
windshield washer delete AND a non broken dipstick!? too cool for me :cool:
and where da brake booster? I'll be following along with you... but I hope my 1.6 doesn't decide to gain any extra holes >_< I delete way to much. Brake booster was prob one of my less great ideas, although I don’t mind a heavy brake, and I did change the brake pedal ratio. Who needs a windshield washer on a play car? The 1.6 was a great way to gain knowledge on the cheap. That was my second motor. Was really a junk yard motor that I hoped would last a bit longer. All that being said, I’ll prob start adding things back in, no ac in FL kinda sucks. |
Originally Posted by whiprsnapr
(Post 1500911)
So short lived because I decided to vent the block by snapping a rod in half. I thought I was around 210-215 ft. lbs. when it let go, so I don’t believe the 1.6’s can reliably handle 250 ft. lbs. with any consistency anymore. So here is the first look and the evidence. I was working off virtual dyno,so it was a surprise for me to vent the block. I was trying to stay with a reasonable tune. I thought I was, lol.
Either there was an existing hardware issue like a bad bearing, you were well over 215 wtq, or there was a tuning issue causing higher cylinder pressure. Should be fun when it's done but I'd be trying really hard to find a vvt head. I'd also go with ARP main studs and a BE pump designed for vvt even if you won't run it right away. It's silly to skip those since you already went down the forged piston rabbit hole. |
Originally Posted by SpartanSV
(Post 1500988)
The 1.6 uses exactly the same rods as the 1.8's. They're also forged steel so they shouldn't fatigue and get weaker over time. It also isn't technically torque that bends rods its cylinder pressure.
Either there was an existing hardware issue like a bad bearing, you were well over 215 wtq, or there was a tuning issue causing higher cylinder pressure. Should be fun when it's done but I'd be trying really hard to find a vvt head. I'd also go with ARP main studs and a BE pump designed for vvt even if you won't run it right away. It's silly to skip those since you already went down the forged piston rabbit hole. I knew they were the same rods, I'd prob bet on tuning, or virtual dyno input was giving me false info. I'm weak on tuning, and after I vented the block I went back to some of my pulls and noticed I didn't adjust the temp or altitude on virtual dyno. I know it was pushing more than 205, but I really don't know how much. I was at 13-14 psi on a 2560, so again in my head, I should have been more than I was. I also was pretty darn stable with my ebc. Have a boundary pump, arp studs as well. For some silly reason, I fought myself getting a boundary pump. I do my best to follow many of the build directions here and the "while you are in there" do these type ideas. but, money is always running. . . I'd love to find a '99-00 head. I'd have to change too much for my power goals for a vvt. Rebuilding this head was purposed for learning, was thinking I could get this on the road, rebuild the head while I wait for parts and some money, then build a '99-00 head slowly when I have the time and money. That and my drivetrain is not set up for more, I made lots of decisions to in the history of the car to stay below 300hp. My goals are 250-270, fun daily. I don't want this car to be sitting getting wrenched on anymore, just want to drive a bit. Hoping I can do a fairly decent job on this build, so yeah, I appreciate the feedback. |
Originally Posted by whiprsnapr
(Post 1501004)
I knew they were the same rods, I'd prob bet on tuning, or virtual dyno input was giving me false info. I'm weak on tuning, and after I vented the block I went back to some of my pulls and noticed I didn't adjust the temp or altitude on virtual dyno. I know it was pushing more than 205, but I really don't know how much. I was at 13-14 psi on a 2560, so again in my head, I should have been more than I was. I also was pretty darn stable with my ebc.
Have a boundary pump, arp studs as well. For some silly reason, I fought myself getting a boundary pump. I do my best to follow many of the build directions here and the "while you are in there" do these type ideas. but, money is always running. . . I'd love to find a '99-00 head. I'd have to change too much for my power goals for a vvt. Rebuilding this head was purposed for learning, was thinking I could get this on the road, rebuild the head while I wait for parts and some money, then build a '99-00 head slowly when I have the time and money. That and my drivetrain is not set up for more, I made lots of decisions to in the history of the car to stay below 300hp. My goals are 250-270, fun daily. I don't want this car to be sitting getting wrenched on anymore, just want to drive a bit. Hoping I can do a fairly decent job on this build, so yeah, I appreciate the feedback. |
Originally Posted by andyfloyd
(Post 1501018)
13-14psi I would expect you to be in the 220-240whp range. How much ignition timing were you running? People have blown these motors with less boost though, it does happen.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...2366d06bff.png |
Originally Posted by whiprsnapr
(Post 1501091)
Below is what I was running. I tried my best to hunt through posts and builds to figure out a conservative table, and this is what I came up with. I also had some help from a local guy who does quite well with his tuning skills. He is on this forum as well.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...2366d06bff.png |
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Time to come out and play.
https://www.miataturbo.net/local-mee...ackdays-97589/ |
Yeah, once I get things sorted I’ll be playing a little. |
Really nice work man. How long did it take you to do the stuff with the head? I might take a go at that over the winter if I get some down time and end up deciding to refresh the head. Looks really nice.
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Thanks, I had a bunch (lots) of late nights after the fam went to bed in getting the head rebuilt. I had to wait on money and parts and I really wanted to learn. I’d say go for it. I stayed away from changing shape on the ports, just focused on smoothing and cleaning up the bowls. Take your time. There are some great you tube video’s that helped me grasp some of the basic ideas. I still have yet to see if things have helped, so the jury is out. |
Well, motor is in, dp had to be refabbed, clocked as it sat against the footwell, then once I clocked it I had to wedge two of the lower welds to give room around the trans. Really fits quite well now but man what a pain. Hot side charge pipe still fits well, actually I think better than the 1.6. Cold side will be my last fab work before I start up. Getting close now! one question I had about tps, does anyone know the wiring for the 3 wire tps 1.8 to the 1.6 harness. I found the 4 wire but am having some trouble finding the 3. Pic attached. https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...8de67130a.jpeg https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...50c228caa.jpeg |
from OEM harness:
red to red/green black/green to black/red white/green to black/green check function before starting! |
Thanks, I found one pic shared on the forum, just wanted to get confirmation. I’m electronically impaired, so I have no idea what I’m looking at, when I’m looking at the answer. https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...aca42dfcfd.png |
https://www.thecarpassionchannel.com...1-1024x788.jpg
I have a stock 1.6 NA harness (1.8 swap) and an NB2 throttle body with the stock vtps and it works just fine. |
Great! Thanks guys. I was was able to wrap up a bunch of little things. Extended the throttle cable bracket, didn’t have a 1.8 cable, buttoned up the wiring to the cas, grounds, and gauges on the back side of the motor. Made a bracket for my weird actuator, on the 1.6 it sat up super high, so I had to make it work. Was able to set it off to the side, and had to shorted it a little. Refabbed the heat shield to fit again, nothing big, just a trim. Hopefully this weekend I’ll have a bit of time to knock out the rest of the small stuff. https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...0ac17bd2a.jpeg https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...aa22d6755.jpeg https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...f0a7e8cf8.jpeg https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...b8d0292e9.jpeg |
Your setup is looking sweet. Can't wait to see it on the road, although I'll see is taillights with my measly 8 lbs. of boost.
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Can’t wait to run with you Joe! Do I see a rods only build in your future? Remember, your still on the road, I’m not lol. |
I'm ready to start up this week and I'm trying to adjust my ignition map and fuel map. I'd love for someone to take the time out to look at my ignition map above and give me some feedback on it. I also had a question on my fuel map, was wondering how much I should add to my fuel map for startup? Andyfloyd got me concerned running this ignition map based on his motor. . . which is similar to mine.
I'm running lower compression, 8.6:1 supertech, 96 stock motor. 93 gas. ID 725's. Thanks for any feedback. |
Well I’m running. Diy base map for ignition and boost maps. I liked the startup boost map because it looks like it holds building boost in the normally aspirated cells. i added like 15 points to the fuel map and it seems spot on, scary close as auto tune brought some cells up and some down only one or two. Now on to the stuff I’m no good at, tuning . . . Anyone know a good tuner around Punta Gorda Florida, Joe Perez??? Edit—pics won’t post. I’ll try later. |
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Hurray for you. Be conservative with that fresh motor. It'll be interesting to see how your headwork performs for you. I'm running on autotune with match afr's. I have not logged it to compare the previous tune.
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Pretty sure at 12 psi on the 1.6 I’m making close to the same at 7 psi on the 1.8. Couple more miles and I’ll turn it up. https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...87992d63f.jpeg |
I’m having trouble with my idle suddenly. I’ve put a 99+ throttle body on that I suspect is either faulty or as I suspect I have no clue how to tune. I have been running off this setup from startup. On open loop it is running at like 2500-3000 rpm, but on closed loop it will control the idle. I’ve put it on open loop, which I typically run because I deleted everything that draws, then disconnected the idle valve and it drops down to a reasonable rpm. Does this mean my idle valve is acting up or does this mean my tuning skills are horrible. Couple things, I adjusted the valve frequency to the highest I can on my mspnp2. I think it’s like 480hz. Everything else I’ve left alone. I really don’t know how to tune closed loop so it’s all a guessing game for me. Any help or a point in the right direction would be appreciated. |
Need some help on my air idle valve. Finally getting some time to figure it out. I had it disconnected, but now when I went to configure it and tested it on the idle valve test, it seems at 100 steps down to 95, it keeps idle without raising. At 0 all the way up to like 75 it revs to like 4500. My question would be do I have the air idle valve wired backward, is the valve not working, or do I have the valve mode wrong. It’s set to normal, 0%=off. Its an nb 2 throttle body 96 motor, 1.6 car. edit— from what I read when I wired and now, the wiring can go either way. |
Well I tried inverting the mode which changed the tables to act the right way, but I still don't understand why at 100 it will rev up. Seems everything I read it should only change rpm in a certain peramiter.
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Well I ignored the fact that I couldn’t get a top step and assumed (not really it did) it just opened up more all the way to 100. The bottom step was 25. I set up my idle based off this info and this morning when I started up I just had to tune up the idle just a little under the cooler conditions through warmup. It also helped setting the stupid throttle screw so my butterfly wouldn’t stay open a touch. Nice solid 900 idle now. Why are things so difficult until that moment when things become much easier. |
I have yet to get mine figured out. But I had that moment with open loop idle. I figured it out and my idle is so stable I haven't bothered with closed loop.
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Yeah, but stupid me is jumping from that moment to closed loop right away. I seriously need to slow my excitement down. It’s not like I’m in a rush. I dial it in just right, but the weather changes things and it bugs me. Just want to be able to dyno tune soon instead of running safe low/rich boost. |
I have a question about launch control. Edit, mspnp2, need to pull the jumper or wire it in. Edit again, jumper is put in place back to my original problem. Works in neutral not in gear. Oh well I’ll work on other things till I find the answer. I also want to give a shout out to the guy who did this blog. Really helped me out with some basic tuning. I’m running on closed loop and I think I’ve got a grasp on much of what each setting was for and why. I still have much to do, but am happy with where I’m at now. Mega Miata |
I’m kinda sorted with my miata, decided to save some money and get it tuned by a guy down here in south Florida. It will get me over the hump with my lack of tuning skills. Any suggestions on tuners would be welcome. Lots of guys recommended a guy named Carlos Rivera, he seems to have good reviews from a few of the clubs down here. Before i I blew up my 1.6, I was in process of building an rd400, and I’m excited to get back on it. https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...75bfff503.jpeg |
Finally have some numbers in. Was was hoping for 250hp, seems I got it.
2560, begi/fm manifold, 3” artech dp, full 3” exhaust, id725, ‘96 block and head, misc goodies. https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...326d129b6.jpeg |
Sweet man. Glad to know people are making progress... We had a baby so I've not done a single damn thing to mine.
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Very nice results!
What boost is this? Any chance to flatten up the torque curve >5k rpm with a little bit more boost on the 2560? |
14.4 psi. I’ll meet up with my tuner today to go over the details. I was more concerned with getting a decent tune rather than maxing everything out. This is beyond my pay grade, so I’m still learning. He did say I did a good job with the initial setup, which I have to thank the community here. Still learning. I still don’t know what dyno gives what kind of numbers, so I take this as just numbers to go forward.
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So I was thinking about upgrading to a 2871r, and I keep crunching the numbers $. Wanted to get some feedback on what would be a reasonable price for a BEGI Mani (new MaxG), 2560r, rebuilt and ported by gpop shop about 5-6 k ago, Artech 3" DP. If I were to sell these and purchase an EFR, I'm not to far off the numbers to go efr. . . I think. I like the idea of a 2871, just because it's basically plug and play to the setup I have now. Pics are in this build thread. Everything is clean, functional, and 0 issues. This is no rush for me as I've got everything set up pretty sweet right now. I've got a squaretop, 99 head, and 6 speed sitting at my shop when I get around to putting them in. If I'm going to pull the head off and upgrade, it's not much work to fab a few parts and upgrade to an efr. . . Any feedback would be appreciated.
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I vote efr goodness if you can swing it.
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Me to, just was looking for what would be a reasonable number for selling what I have.
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