Jeff's build on the cheap aka. take 2
04-06-2010, 02:24 PM
#1
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Jeff's build on the cheap aka. take 2
So I know what some of you are thinking : "Get your *** back in the shop and build me det-cans bitch!" I work on those every night after getting home from my 'real' job and they're getting done...Trust me 
. I do this during my very occasional 'me' time.
I've been working on this every other Saturday for the past couple of months. I realized a while ago that I wanted more from my car. Having that little extra push at 10 psi was nice, but I don't just want a fun car, I want a SCARY car. Like "HOLY **** I JUST **** OUT MY INTESTINES" type fast. I've driven JayL's car and that is the kind of rush I'm interested in. My car will likely never see the track, and most of my commute is on the highway, so I'm perfectly alright having a highway queen with a ludicrous powerband. Plus needing to putt it around on closer city streets would probably keep me out of trouble anyway :P.
Problem: I don't bleed cash, and contrary to what some might think, I don't make a whole lot from the det-cans after you factor in materials and shipping, so I need to make this work on a budget.
Solution: Build the car a little bit...against the grain and do my homework to make sure I get the most for my money. I'm shooting for 300whp by the end of the summer and I still need to DD the car so reliability is an absolute must. Oh, and I will be avoiding meth injection as I just don't like the idea of an additional consumable on a street car. I should also point out that I will be doing this with a 1.6. Save the lectures, I'm not a retard. I know how much easier this would be with a 1.8 but I enjoy a challenge and the novelty of 175+hp/liter makes me hard
.
Taking all of this into account, I came up with a few conclusions:
1. My little pea shooter t3 would need to be replaced -> see below
2. The stock 5spd will be replaced by a 6 speed
3. Forged rods are a must
4. Lower compression pistons would be needed to avoid using meth.
5. The 6" rear end (which held up very well thus far) would be going bye bye.
6. I'm going to need a better exhaust/DP/manifold
#5 was an easy one. I put out a WTB on a local miata board and got a 4.10 open diff for super cheap. With a little help from JayL and 90GTK450 that got swapped out on the quick. My speedo is now much more accurate
. I plan on looking for a clutchpack LSD in the near future to help with my awesome 1 wheeling in the rain. I'm avoiding the standard torsen as I fear for its life at 300whp. I have considered an OBX torsen, but since I decided to shoot for more power I don't feel like rolling the dice on that one. If the clutchpack will hold up to Jason's abuse, I'm sure it will take mine just fine.
#1 came about much faster than I had originally planned for. I was hoping to get a motor build and into the car, and then replace all of my hot parts at the same time. Well as luck would have it, the fasteners on the turbine side of my current turbo failed and caused a massive exhaust leak when they heated up leading to really shitty spool. Now, I could have paid 17 bucks for new hardware and clasps (the turbine wheel wasn't damaged) but to be honest, the thought of pulling my turbo completely off and apart only to put the same small turbo right back on just isn't that appealing to me. With that in mind, I decided to just go ahead with the upgrade and deal for the time being with my BEGi manifold/dp. I settled on a 50 trim t3/t04e chinacharger as being pretty good for my power goals. It is a little on the large/laggy side, but overall I'm very pleased with its performance.
My setup before the swap:
And After:
Much cleaner as I was able to ditch my water lines and the BEGi "octopus" and go to a very simple oil feed/drain. I plan on making an inlet tube but for now the filter will suffice.
Oh, and I had to "clearance" a little bit for the compressor with a 20lb sledgehammer :/ (thanks to TurboRoach for all of the help with that install)
"clearance" I plan on going at this with a sander and some paint to avoid rust in the future. I'm a bigger fan of this than cutting it out and welding it though.
Like I said, so far, I've been very pleased with the turbo. It has good street manners and I'm seeing 10psi at roughly 4200. I'm starting to get the itch to turn up the boost though, so to fix #3 & #4, I started shopping for engine internals.
Background:
I come from the world of DSMs originally. For those of you who aren't familiar with 4g63s, the strongest of the dsm engines (so called '6 bolt') came equipped with 7.8:1 cr pistons and connecting rods that have been known to handle in excess of 400AWHP in street driven vehicles (500+ has been recorded but I cant vouch for longevity). The super low CR means that you could run obnoxious amounts of boost on pump gas safely without meth which is extremely appealing to me.
Turns out the b6t was equipped with just such a CR, so I snagged a set from a member on this board for a very reasonable price. Now I know that I'm going to have a gutless wonder when out of boost, but I simply don't care. They fit my goals and I'm going to run with it for better or worse. :
Strange thing though, These aren't regular b6t connecting rods. From what the seller told me, they came out of a mercury capri, so perhaps there was some difference there?
That just left connecting rods. After doing some homework I settled on some Cat Power rods. I'm not going to go into reasoning as I don't want to step on toes but if you do some googling, you might be surprised.
Rods looking sweet:
Wrist pin fitment is good:
Lucky for me (but not so much for my friend) a buddy of mine just blew his headgasket and has decided to build his motor. The engine has around 80k on it and should provide an excellent starting platform if the block is in good shape. This means I get to build my motor on the side to avoid downtime. All I have to do is give him my block when I'm done so he can use it for a core (he doesn't really care that much about down time, the car isn't his DD anyway)
And that's where I currently stand. I'll be installing a 190HP + new filter this week so I can turn the boost up a little bit at the Dyno day I'm going to this weekend (The DCs on my 450s are in the high 80s and that just doesn't seem right @10psi, I think my pump is dying). I'm hoping to make 230+ and I don't think that I'll have a problem doing that, even on Pina's heartbreaker of a dynodynamics. I'll be sure to update with more pictures/info as the build progresses.
Oh, and originally I had entitled my build thread on my local board "Go faster | break even" and I was going to try to accomplish all of this for under $1500 dollars after factoring in selling off my extra parts. I have since come to the realization that there is being cost effective, and then there is being cheap. I'm not cheap and I don't like wasting money on my car only to replace broken parts 2 months later.
. I do this during my very occasional 'me' time.I've been working on this every other Saturday for the past couple of months. I realized a while ago that I wanted more from my car. Having that little extra push at 10 psi was nice, but I don't just want a fun car, I want a SCARY car. Like "HOLY **** I JUST **** OUT MY INTESTINES" type fast. I've driven JayL's car and that is the kind of rush I'm interested in. My car will likely never see the track, and most of my commute is on the highway, so I'm perfectly alright having a highway queen with a ludicrous powerband. Plus needing to putt it around on closer city streets would probably keep me out of trouble anyway :P.
Problem: I don't bleed cash, and contrary to what some might think, I don't make a whole lot from the det-cans after you factor in materials and shipping, so I need to make this work on a budget.
Solution: Build the car a little bit...against the grain and do my homework to make sure I get the most for my money. I'm shooting for 300whp by the end of the summer and I still need to DD the car so reliability is an absolute must. Oh, and I will be avoiding meth injection as I just don't like the idea of an additional consumable on a street car. I should also point out that I will be doing this with a 1.6. Save the lectures, I'm not a retard. I know how much easier this would be with a 1.8 but I enjoy a challenge and the novelty of 175+hp/liter makes me hard
.Taking all of this into account, I came up with a few conclusions:
1. My little pea shooter t3 would need to be replaced -> see below
2. The stock 5spd will be replaced by a 6 speed
3. Forged rods are a must
4. Lower compression pistons would be needed to avoid using meth.
5. The 6" rear end (which held up very well thus far) would be going bye bye.
6. I'm going to need a better exhaust/DP/manifold
#5 was an easy one. I put out a WTB on a local miata board and got a 4.10 open diff for super cheap. With a little help from JayL and 90GTK450 that got swapped out on the quick. My speedo is now much more accurate
. I plan on looking for a clutchpack LSD in the near future to help with my awesome 1 wheeling in the rain. I'm avoiding the standard torsen as I fear for its life at 300whp. I have considered an OBX torsen, but since I decided to shoot for more power I don't feel like rolling the dice on that one. If the clutchpack will hold up to Jason's abuse, I'm sure it will take mine just fine.#1 came about much faster than I had originally planned for. I was hoping to get a motor build and into the car, and then replace all of my hot parts at the same time. Well as luck would have it, the fasteners on the turbine side of my current turbo failed and caused a massive exhaust leak when they heated up leading to really shitty spool. Now, I could have paid 17 bucks for new hardware and clasps (the turbine wheel wasn't damaged) but to be honest, the thought of pulling my turbo completely off and apart only to put the same small turbo right back on just isn't that appealing to me. With that in mind, I decided to just go ahead with the upgrade and deal for the time being with my BEGi manifold/dp. I settled on a 50 trim t3/t04e chinacharger as being pretty good for my power goals. It is a little on the large/laggy side, but overall I'm very pleased with its performance.
My setup before the swap:
And After:
Much cleaner as I was able to ditch my water lines and the BEGi "octopus" and go to a very simple oil feed/drain. I plan on making an inlet tube but for now the filter will suffice.
Oh, and I had to "clearance" a little bit for the compressor with a 20lb sledgehammer :/ (thanks to TurboRoach for all of the help with that install)
"clearance" I plan on going at this with a sander and some paint to avoid rust in the future. I'm a bigger fan of this than cutting it out and welding it though.
Like I said, so far, I've been very pleased with the turbo. It has good street manners and I'm seeing 10psi at roughly 4200. I'm starting to get the itch to turn up the boost though, so to fix #3 & #4, I started shopping for engine internals.
Background:
I come from the world of DSMs originally. For those of you who aren't familiar with 4g63s, the strongest of the dsm engines (so called '6 bolt') came equipped with 7.8:1 cr pistons and connecting rods that have been known to handle in excess of 400AWHP in street driven vehicles (500+ has been recorded but I cant vouch for longevity). The super low CR means that you could run obnoxious amounts of boost on pump gas safely without meth which is extremely appealing to me.
Turns out the b6t was equipped with just such a CR, so I snagged a set from a member on this board for a very reasonable price
. Now I know that I'm going to have a gutless wonder when out of boost, but I simply don't care. They fit my goals and I'm going to run with it for better or worse. :Strange thing though, These aren't regular b6t connecting rods. From what the seller told me, they came out of a mercury capri, so perhaps there was some difference there?
That just left connecting rods. After doing some homework I settled on some Cat Power rods. I'm not going to go into reasoning as I don't want to step on toes but if you do some googling, you might be surprised.
Rods looking sweet:
Wrist pin fitment is good:
Lucky for me (but not so much for my friend) a buddy of mine just blew his headgasket and has decided to build his motor. The engine has around 80k on it and should provide an excellent starting platform if the block is in good shape. This means I get to build my motor on the side to avoid downtime. All I have to do is give him my block when I'm done so he can use it for a core (he doesn't really care that much about down time, the car isn't his DD anyway)
And that's where I currently stand. I'll be installing a 190HP + new filter this week so I can turn the boost up a little bit at the Dyno day I'm going to this weekend (The DCs on my 450s are in the high 80s and that just doesn't seem right @10psi, I think my pump is dying). I'm hoping to make 230+ and I don't think that I'll have a problem doing that, even on Pina's heartbreaker of a dynodynamics. I'll be sure to update with more pictures/info as the build progresses
.Oh, and originally I had entitled my build thread on my local board "Go faster | break even" and I was going to try to accomplish all of this for under $1500 dollars after factoring in selling off my extra parts. I have since come to the realization that there is being cost effective, and then there is being cheap. I'm not cheap and I don't like wasting money on my car only to replace broken parts 2 months later.
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04-06-2010, 02:41 PM
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Cool folks, but not very technically oriented. They are like a much less DOOORRIIFTO CR.net. Lots of tint/paint/lowering, not enough performance related stuff.
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04-06-2010, 02:58 PM
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Thanks .Aside from a better manifold/downpipe/exhaust (DP/Exhaust are in the works) just the mundane **** like injectors/FPR and consumables like bearings/rings. I think my 6 puck will probably hold.
I like it a lot. Build quality is excellent and spool is acceptable (yours would be better due to the extra displacement). I'm finding that larger journal bearing turbos exhibit an interesting spool up characteristic. They seem to 'stall' at certain RPMs. For example, if I'm in 4th @2k and I punch it, I start seeing about 2psi at 2800, it will hang there till about 3300 and then shoot to 5psi. It will then hang out untill like 3800 and will then rapidly climb to 10psi @4200(JayL described something similar to me and perhaps he can chime in here). It sounds like it would suck but once the "big hit" happens the power is very smooth. Punching it at 4k avoids all of the climbing and just delivers a very nice rush.
.Aside from a better manifold/downpipe/exhaust (DP/Exhaust are in the works) just the mundane **** like injectors/FPR and consumables like bearings/rings. I think my 6 puck will probably hold.I like it a lot. Build quality is excellent and spool is acceptable (yours would be better due to the extra displacement). I'm finding that larger journal bearing turbos exhibit an interesting spool up characteristic. They seem to 'stall' at certain RPMs. For example, if I'm in 4th @2k and I punch it, I start seeing about 2psi at 2800, it will hang there till about 3300 and then shoot to 5psi. It will then hang out untill like 3800 and will then rapidly climb to 10psi @4200(JayL described something similar to me and perhaps he can chime in here). It sounds like it would suck but once the "big hit" happens the power is very smooth. Punching it at 4k avoids all of the climbing and just delivers a very nice rush.
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04-06-2010, 04:22 PM
#10
Thanks .Aside from a better manifold/downpipe/exhaust (DP/Exhaust are in the works) just the mundane **** like injectors/FPR and consumables like bearings/rings. I think my 6 puck will probably hold.
I like it a lot. Build quality is excellent and spool is acceptable (yours would be better due to the extra displacement). I'm finding that larger journal bearing turbos exhibit an interesting spool up characteristic. They seem to 'stall' at certain RPMs. For example, if I'm in 4th @2k and I punch it, I start seeing about 2psi at 2800, it will hang there till about 3300 and then shoot to 5psi. It will then hang out untill like 3800 and will then rapidly climb to 10psi @4200(JayL described something similar to me and perhaps he can chime in here). It sounds like it would suck but once the "big hit" happens the power is very smooth. Punching it at 4k avoids all of the climbing and just delivers a very nice rush.
.Aside from a better manifold/downpipe/exhaust (DP/Exhaust are in the works) just the mundane **** like injectors/FPR and consumables like bearings/rings. I think my 6 puck will probably hold.I like it a lot. Build quality is excellent and spool is acceptable (yours would be better due to the extra displacement). I'm finding that larger journal bearing turbos exhibit an interesting spool up characteristic. They seem to 'stall' at certain RPMs. For example, if I'm in 4th @2k and I punch it, I start seeing about 2psi at 2800, it will hang there till about 3300 and then shoot to 5psi. It will then hang out untill like 3800 and will then rapidly climb to 10psi @4200(JayL described something similar to me and perhaps he can chime in here). It sounds like it would suck but once the "big hit" happens the power is very smooth. Punching it at 4k avoids all of the climbing and just delivers a very nice rush.
How is the topend on that thing??
Also you mention you need a manifold/dp. Whats wrong with the begi log you have now? Holding back lots of power or breaking? What about it don't you like?
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04-06-2010, 04:35 PM
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I'm sure I'll be able to make decent power with the Begi log, but the big problem is downpipe fitment. I want to squeeze every little bit out of this thing that I can, and I think the best way to do that is a full 3" strait pipe from the outlet of the turbo back. You can see in the picture below that even after grinding out a fairly sizable chunk from the shelf, I'm still cutting it pretty close. With a 3" vband the downpipe is touching my feet
.
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04-06-2010, 07:05 PM
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.
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04-06-2010, 09:06 PM
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Havn't even been home for a hour yet and already I have an update . Went digging through various timing threads and decided that I was being a *****. SOOOOO I plugged some known good maps into a spreadsheet and made a bit of a hybrid between the map I'm currently running and a map Brain posted a while ago (with minor alterations). It made a night and day difference in power delivery.
I'm pretty stoked to get the new motor put together though because I'm planning on using hustler's map as a starting point and adding on from there :P.
. Went digging through various timing threads and decided that I was being a *****. SOOOOO I plugged some known good maps into a spreadsheet and made a bit of a hybrid between the map I'm currently running and a map Brain posted a while ago (with minor alterations). It made a night and day difference in power delivery.I'm pretty stoked to get the new motor put together though because I'm planning on using hustler's map as a starting point and adding on from there :P.
Last edited by Jeff_Ciesielski; 04-09-2010 at 12:39 PM.
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04-09-2010, 01:34 AM
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I got my new fuel pump installed tonight and I'm pretty happy so far. I ended up letting autotune pull a shitload of fuel out everywhere and I'm still way to rich, but even at 10.5:1 I'm at 74% DC at redline now, so once I get things in line at 11.5:1, I should have plenty of headroom for the 12-14psi I want to run at the dyno Saturday.
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