Just another turbo miata
 

hmm here is what it looked like the day I got it. I purchased it from a auto auction in Indiana last july.
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I dissed the silly wheels and crappy tires for 15x8 6UL with hancook rs2's 225/45/15. Its not been real pretty outside since I put them on so I can get a great picture of them.
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put some speakers in the headrest, now i can hear music top down on the highway much clearer then before. They are some 3.5" polks. Both seats got 2 speakers put into them for left and right.
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So who is ever satisfied with 105bhp? not me... So the deconstruction reconstruction begins.

putting gauges in to monitor new things the car didn't have from the factory.
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completed.
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At this point the car was already running on a haltech sprint 500 ecu that was installed by lms-efi (also known as ludwig motorsports). Chris has been a friend of mine for 9+ years now.
The front mount shows up and the kitties are real interested in whats going on...
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mounted.
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the cx racing comes with some off brand BOV. So I replaced it with this one I picked up used.
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installed! Welded in a bung for my Intake Temp Sensor.
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I am using a hallman pro boost controller, it was just a short term fix. I will let the haltech controll the boost.
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oil return line, chris drilled and tap the pan and made this line for me.
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pic of what the car looked like after the kit was put on.
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Somethings not pictured at this point, replaced oil pan gaskets, replace cams seals, new thermostat, installed rx7 injectors, FM miata stage 1 clutch with 13lb flywheel.

Which haltech is it running on?

sprint 500

my bad yeah just saw it now in the first post, ok.
removed AC or didn't come with car?

pre turbo water injection time.

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Injection nozzle. Picture kinda sucks its actually underneath the pipe.
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pic of the car with its new shoes on.
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...044.1386414531

Ordered a 3" downpipe from Artech, Abe does beautiful work!

Here is the downpipe installed
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The rest of the exhaust before it went on the car. 5x11x22 muffler keep its wife friendly.
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pic of the car from saturday
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it did not come with it or power steering.

nice preturbo water injection, I have plans to do that -water pump.
But with mine the water mister will be setup right in the middle of the filter aimed straight at the middle of the turbo blades.
nice exhaust, v bands yes?

yes vbands, that makes installation so nice.

Preturbo water injection??? :facepalm:

Why do you say fail reverant?

I am thinking about doing it too, in addition to my direct port WI

My thoughts are that it would help spool up and also reduce AITs.

There are spare maps and outputs in the hydra I could use to drive a high speed valve.

Yes.

I like your build, but please upgrade the pre-turbo water injection to a proper, tried and true system with a high pressure pump injecting just before the throttle body. You've already got the nice fittings and nylon line, so you don't need much more.

Why do I care? I've been using water injection since 1997, have helped countless people build install and tune their setups, and have hosted one of the first DIY water/alcohol/methanol injection websites. I can tell you for a fact that pre-turbo injection is the least optimal configuration for real performance gains, and have personally seen this method damage compressor fins. Nothing personal, but if you're going to do it, do it right.

I have a 250psi aem pump behind this injector I do plan to run another injector pre tb when I upgrade my ignition. I would love to read your data that you have collected regarding pre turbo water injection. I am aware the risk to the turbo, I have another one like it if I mess it up. I'll collect some of my own data as I go, suggestion duely noted though man, I appreciate it!

So how do you do it right if you want to inject pre-turbo?

I'd like to do pre-turbo for faster spool but am concerned about potential fin damage. It looks like even if I spray directly onto the compressor when I lift off throttle I will still get pooling in the intake.

From what I've read different mixtures will have different evap points. I'd look into that more.
I do know another turbo miata owner with pre turbo water injection. With only 91aki ca gas he could only get to 12~ psi on his setup before det, with water it was around 16psi and know with some alky mix its near 19psi

With 100 aki he can do 20psi without water.

He is of the opinion that you can't do it right.

How do you plan to do yours with no water pump?

turbo pressure will force water out of the resovoir into a mister nozzle that will also have a pressure line run to it with a water line as well.
Probably be few other parts, solenoid, and a resovoir low level warring system, but I think thats about it

You think you will get enough pressure for atomization? I'm unsure that you will, but you could test it I suppose.

atomization, doubtful, but I do know it works because as I noted above, friend with turbo miata and pre turbo WI, is using this setup

(zack morris's phone)

From everything I learned from my" wonders of physics" class in college pre turbo injection doesn't make sensesense. Looks great otherwise.

Thanks man it something I just wanted to give a shot. I have dyno plot from a dyno dynamics dyno it's not called the heart breaker for nothing. Our local dynamics is consider 15- 18% off. It put down 227hp/220lbs @ 15psi which would look more like 260 on a dynojet. I didn't post it I thought I would wait till I could get on a dynojet. I need to upgrade my ignition and bigger injectors if I want to push the car anymore. Also unsure how far to push my 150,000 mile 1.6 ;)

OK, for the record, it is most effective to atomize with a high-pressure pump in the heated charge post-turbo. That's how I'm going on my build.

However, I'm intrigued by what you're doing. Do you have any plans to do some before and after data collection to show us how it works?

Also, Fae, pre-turbo gives faster spool? First I've heard of that. Why does that work? I wouldn't think it would do anything for spool.

http://n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7304

"1. Pre-Turbocharger/Centrifugal Injection

By placing the water methanol injection nozzle or nozzles pre-turbocharger or centrifugal supercharger and injecting a fine precise amount of water methanol into the air inlet of the compressor can have a dramatic positive effect on compressor efficiency (particularly with turbocharger systems and high boost centrifugal applications) while substantially lowering discharge temperatures at the source of compression. On 8-25 psi applications, users can expect to see a 70-160+ degree drop in compressor discharge temperatures. While reductions of 160-240+degree's can be had on 25-60+ psi high boost applications such as diesels.

How is this possible?

When water methanol is first injected, we're able to begin slightly cooling the incoming air entering the compressor. This air is already relatively cool in relation to the ambient temperature of the day as it has yet to be compressed and heated. Depending on the temperature of the day and how the air inlet is plumped and where the air is being drawn in from, the incoming air entering into the inlet of the compressor commonly ranges between 5-20 degree's above ambient. Only minor cooling of the air charge occurs at this stage before it enters into the compressor. More importantly, we are about to dramatically cool the air that is being compressed and heated within the turbocharger.

It's important to understand it is here that the heat is being generated.
A turbochargers impeller can spin at an astonishing speed between 100,000- 150,000 rpms. While centrifugal supercharger impellers spin between 40,000-65,000+ rpm. Between each pair of blades on an impeller exists a wedge shaped open space which the air fills in. As the impeller is spinning, this wedge shaped air pocket is subjected to tremendous centrifugal forces and is forced outward away from the center of the impeller to the outer edges. It is here where the air begins to stack up and compress against the compressor housing forming the heat as it makes it way into the scroll.

As the compressed air heats up, it tries to further expand, making it now more difficult for the heated compressed air to pass through and exit the compressor thereby lowering the compressor efficiency. In addition, this compressed air is taking up more space within the compressor limiting new incoming air from being processed. Furthermore, the hot compressed air exiting the turbocharger is less dense as it has been heated significantly. Therefore, containing less power producing oxygen while making the engine considerably more prone to detonation.

By cooling the air as it's being compressed within the turbocharger or centrifugal supercharger, the compressed air is now substantially cooler, more dense, taking less space and moves more efficiently through the compressor allowing us to pack and process more air through the turbocharger or centrifugal supercharger. This leads us to our second benefit. Improved compressor efficiency.

All of this results in improved compressor efficiency. Because of this improved efficiency the compressor does not have to work as hard to produce the same amount of boost as without the water methanol injection. In turn it raises the maximum mass air flow of the compressor. Thereby, making a smaller turbocharger or centrifugal supercharger now perform like a larger turbocharger or centrifugal supercharger with the addition of the water methanol injection.

Lastly, as already mentioned above, pre-compressor injection substantially lowers the discharge temperatures exiting the compressor. The engine is now less prone to detonation through this reduction in air charge temperatures. Furthermore, the use of an intercooler is dramatically reduced and in some applications no longer needed as it may not offer substantial further cooling effects in return for the pressure drop caused by it. Removal of the intercooler could now offer a further increase in boost pressure at the engine as well as compressor efficiency.

While all of this sounds very exciting. To do this properly requires proper sizing of the nozzles in relation to the compressor size and output. Additionally, the type fluid being used also effects the size of the water injection nozzle selected. When done properly, very little of the water methanol mist injected into the inlet of the compressor survives the process. Thereby, discharging a much cooler air charge with a relativity high humidity with very little or no water methanol droplets present.

When injecting water, we can quickly over saturate the air charge and have an excess of fluid discharging the compressor. Water has a much higher latent heat of vaporization, nearly double that of methanol, and does not flash (instantly evaporate) like that of methanol or other alcohols when injected into a hot air stream. Therefore, a smaller nozzle must be used when spraying pure water.

A better choice for pre-compressor injection is a greater concentration of methanol vs. water or pure methanol. Methanol instantly flashes (evaporating) as soon as it enters into a hot compressor and meets the heat within it. By using an alcohol, this dramatically reduces the amount of actual fluid exiting the compressor due to it‘s fast evaporation. Additionally, methanol offers much greater cooling effect then water. Furthermore, methanol is also less dense then water thereby having a softer impact on the impeller. The specific gravity of pure methanol is .792 @ 68° F compared to water which is 1.00 @ 64° F.

One major concern associated with pre-compressor injection is erosion of the impeller. This is only likely to occur when injecting solid stream of water at the impeller of a turbocharger or using an excessively large nozzle. Impeller erosion is highly unlikely with centrifugal supercharger as they spin at a considerably slower speed then turbochargers. Impeller erosion is of little concern with centrifugal superchargers."

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/vbulletin/...34&postcount=8

A turbocharger only knows 2 important properties of the gas it is compressing. The density of the gas at the compressor inlet and the pressure ratio it is operating at, which is determined by the rotor rpm and the gas density. If you increase the pressure or reduce the temperature at the inlet you will modify both of those parameters. In both cases (increased inlet pressure, or lower inlet temperature) you increase the apparent density of the gas passing through the compressor. At a given rotor rpm with a given gas density you will flow a very specific volume of gas and it will be compressed to a specific pressure ratio on exit. That is what the compressor map is based on. If you change the inlet conditions (gas density) you in effect slide the compressor map left and right. This is the "corrected flow" of the turbocharger.

Sorry. Don't buy this quote. However, in the exact same post (2 paragraphs down) is the real mechanism, namely:

"You also change the pressure temperature profile inside the compressor wheel itself. You probably actually change the shape of the compressor map. As the gas moves outward and is compressed, heat that would have gone into heat and increased pressure is absorbed by the WI mist and so the compressor has less work to do since it is no longer fighting this temperature driven pressure increase, it can achieve more mass flow at that pressure ratio. The cooling should also modify the speed of sound in the gas and the mach number of the compressor blade tips should also change. This should change the choke flow characteristics of the compressor but I don't have the information to comment in detail on that."

The above jives with Technosalvagers explanation too.

To put it more simply, by injecting pre-turbo, the compressor ingests a mixture of a gas and a liquid.

The amount of cooling that happens before the compressor depends upon how much of the liquid changes phase. This will be negligible -- could be a little in Pheonix, there won't be any in New Orleans -- this is the field of "psychrometrics," look it up.

However, once it is in the compressor being heated (remember p = rho x R x T), the liquid changes phase to a gas while removing heat . . . a LOT of heat . . . which lowers pressure . . . which has an impact on compressor characteristics.

Note that some of this effect would also be seen with post-compressor/pre-throttle body water injection because that would also lower the pressure at the compressor discharge, although I wouldn't expect the effect to be as dramatic.

Interesting.

Note that the cited articles talk about the importance of atomization to prevent compressor erosion. I'll be interested to see what your results are long-term with the pumpless injection.

Hornetball just to be clear I am not running a pumpless system I am running a 250psi AEM pump.

Got my LS2 coils the other day. Need to make a bracket get them mounted. Ordering a bigger nozzle for my pre turbo injection and adding another nozzle for extra water pre throttle body.

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Another steering rack case that's new to me.

hmm interesting.

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not pictured.
950cc Haltech injectors and a 949 fuel rail :)

should fix my issue of running out of spark and injector from the last dyno. 260whp on stock ignition was pushing it pretty hard imo.

Also a another water injection point has been added before the throttle body and I have a bigger nozzle for the pre-turbo side of the injection.

Is that the GM factory LS coil rail?

How'd you mount it at an angle like that?

Yes, I do believe that it was slanted from the factory, its from the truck motor. C. Ludwig on here made them work, when I was over there last we where trying to figure out the best way to make a mount and we had 2 of those rails and decided that we could make them work. I think he did a great job.

What do you think Faeflora, 300 whp ? Wonder how long my rods will last before they decide they need fresh air.

300 hp? At the flywheel, maybe, with a Greddy.

What downpipe are you using?

It has already close to 300 flywheel at the moment (close) 260whp is what it is sitting at so whatever that equates to flywheel is, maybe 285-290. I haven't really looked up drive train loss for the miata.

It has a 3" divorced downpipe from artech, with full 3" exhaust to a 11x18x22 magnaflow muffler.
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Nice looking build.

Next time you are on the dyno please make some pulls comparing no water injection to all three possible injection scenarios (pre-turbo, pre-tb, both) if time and money allows. It'll give the pre-turbo haters something to chew on and provide some real data as well.

Good luck!

260whp at what psi, on what dyno, with what correction factor?

I'm not doubting you, but that is a very, very good number for a Greddy. Your baller 3" downpipe probably helps a lot there.

15psi it was on dyno dynamics, the owner of the dyno says that it reads %18 lower. However we know that every car has read atleast 15% lower on the dynamics then it does on the dynojet. My plot is uncorrected it did 227/220 so a 15% correct gives it 261hp. I am going to be taking it a dynojet soon. I ran out of injector(rx7 460's) and spark(stock) at the last session.

Very nice car you have there. The Greddy turbo lives!!!!!!!

Would you mind throwing up some more pics of the outside of the car with the new wheels? I would be most grateful.

That was the plan, I am not sure if it will happen we shall see.

After the next dyno if the car survives I will grab another 1.6 and do a small build of the motor. I am still rocking the 1.6 open diff. I have all the parts needed to do my 1.8 rx7 clutch type diff. I will get that soon. Maybe a winter project or sooner if the stock rear takes a dump. I may upgrade the brakes and suspension. It has aftermarket front an rear sway bars, I have no idea what they are. I haven't looked into them much. I purchased the car from a auto auction would have been cool to meet the previous owner. It was obviously well taken care of.

Something I have been messing with, this picture below was taken with my iphone this is the unedited photo.
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This is the photo after a app called color splash:
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This is the photo after camera+
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Did you install these in seats that previously had no speakers? If so, were the mounts for the speakers in the seat frame already (ie do all stock seats have this possibility), or are the speakers just kind of perched in there?

There were not speakers in the seats, the wiring was there though. There in there just like the picture shows. I am not sure about all miatas though.

woops.

what size is the greddy compressor wheel? mm?

Yes I answered ya! Chris Ludwig mounted it but I do believe that it come with a bend in it from gm if not u could bend it in a vice. There where some flaps he cut off while where mocking it up. He has done all the work with them.

TD04H-15G can flow around 440CFM (275HP) 55 trim - 41.2mm in. - 55.55mm ex. | Turbine: 2.047" ex.

From a post I found on here about the 15g

What's the most HP anyone has made with the greddy setup?

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1312979454

Latest moddification to my life. Name is Grant 7lbs 10oz 21" long.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1313614471

because a car seat doesn't fit into my 350z or miata.

Nice Pickup on the kid and the car!

Thanks man.

congrats on the latest addition to the family!

Hey, are you the guy i met when i bought the Cherokee off of Chris?

yup!

Nice to see you again!


Been awhile on here. I haven't really done much with the miata besides just put miles on it. Last weak the high pressure oil line feed to the turbo sprung a leak but it was caught before anything was hurt. Getting a new one made this week. Hopefully my next post will be a 300whp dyno plot from the greddy 15g :)

blades on my turbo are still looking great. been through galons of devils own boost juice now.

Are you using the big nozzle? I need to add a sixth nozzle for precompressor. I will be spraying pure meth.

I am using a 1 going to switch to a 2 pre compressor. I am using a 2 pre tb I have the nozzles for a 3 and a 4 to test with any configuration.

Reverting to this topic, my 90 has the mounts for the speakers in the headrests, but no wiring. Hope that helps

Woot! Got it out and going this weekend. Gotta replace the aem 02 sensor already, boo. Ordering some ID's and replacing the 950cc haltechs. May also order some tires and start getting the diff replacement in motion, would like to hit a autocross event or two this summer.