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LetItSnow's casual, emissions-oppressed build
2 Attachment(s)
I recently introduced you to this guy:
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1426099615 I've done the brakes, suspension, timing belt and the top. It's time to go under the knife again! My intent is to just give the car some more guts. It's my daily, and I'll probably get back to autocross (ten years in, I took a break last season) knowing that I'll die in PAX. No track days planned. This build is more for the experience of doing it than for hitting a power goal - I'm shooting for a particular boost and an engine that I trust. I don't care how many horsepower come with it. I've been reading the hell out of this forum, forming my build list, and following the FAQ. I've owned Corky Bell's book for years. Check. Because I need to retain OBD-II compliance in order to pass NYS inspection, I've opted for an eManage Ultimate. (Bashers, keep walking.) I've got an O2 clamp and the MAP sensor, and a Boomslang is on the way. I'm exploring my options in widebands. So, there's my EM and ignition control. Fuel is where things start to escape me. From the FAQ:
Originally Posted by Braineack
If you are using a “piggyback” fuel management unit such as the E-manage, the popular injector to use is a 305cc injector from the Supra.
Keep this in mind: As addictive as boost may be, I plan on maxing out around 8psi. With the limitations of some of the hardware I'm using, it seems like a good cap. So, my question to you: With the EMU and otherwise stock fuel system, on 8psi max boost, will 305cc Supra injectors fit my needs, and will I need to make the underhood fuel pump loop and alternate FPR? Jumping ahead a bit, as well... Looking at their page, it seems that Weir-Tech isn't in the flange business anymore. Is there a new go-to company for good ones? I've seen a few names pop up, but Turbo-Flanges.com has particular appeal to me for their recessed ports and the availability of a Subaru TD04 flange. <Head flange> <Subaru TD04 flange> |
Originally Posted by LetItSnow
(Post 1213935)
This build is more for the experience of doing it than for hitting a power goal - I'm shooting for a particular boost and an engine that I trust. I don't care how many horsepower come with it.
I also believe the voodoo box is the better bandaid solution if you want to retain OBD-II capabilities over an e-manage but I am not an expert on bandaid solutions so I can't be sure. However. It is easy enough to get a megasquirt PnP and use that to tune the car and just put the stock ecu back in for inspections. No permanent modifications required. |
Let me share a little of my experience. And since you're really not that far away perhaps a meet up sometime will help, namely a local autox event. What is your time frame for the project?
I am currently running the Powercards fuel and timing... Let me just say it isn't great at all. But I understand your position of OBD 2 compliance in NY state. So moving forward I believe I am running the 330 cc/min injectors (I would have to look as they came with my used MP62 kit) It runs fine and the stock ECU keeps up pretty well. Some idle issues (more to do with Supercharger than Injectors and ECU however). Also have some transition into boost issues (0-2 psi) runs really rich like 10-11 A/F. But I am switching to Megasquirt and 460 cc/min injectors (RX7) and that should suffice for my goals. |
Why can you just not swap ECU's for testing?
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Originally Posted by shuiend
(Post 1213944)
Why can you just not swap ECU's for testing?
This, this is my question. 729 days of compromise for 1 easy day of emissions testing... vs. 1 day of work to pass emissions for 729 days of non-compromised power. It'd be an easy choice if it were me, but i may value my time and car differently. |
Originally Posted by concealer404
(Post 1213948)
This, this is my question.
729 days of compromise for 1 easy day of emissions testing... vs. 1 day of work to pass emissions for 729 days of non-compromised power. It'd be an easy choice if it were me, but i may value my time and car differently. |
Originally Posted by The Gleas
(Post 1213949)
NY is yearly OBD 2 plug in. I went 95 to avoid this completely.
Ok 1 day of good for 354 days of compromise, then. |
Originally Posted by concealer404
(Post 1213955)
Ok 1 day of good for 354 days of compromise, then. |
Originally Posted by Ryan_G
(Post 1213941)
I also believe the voodoo box is the better bandaid solution if you want to retain OBD-II capabilities over an e-manage...
Originally Posted by shuiend
(Post 1213944)
Why can you just not swap ECU's for testing?
I really have three good options here. One of them involves time travel and an OBD-I car, and another involves moving to a state that doesn't require an OBD-II plugin annually. Neither of those is currently possible. That leaves me stuck with the third option, which is to do the best I can with what I've got to work with, and I'm sure that (skipping any understood "that sucks, dude"s) the experience on this forum can help me find a good solution. Wha'cha think? |
Originally Posted by Ryan_G
(Post 1213956)
What kind of calendar do you use? :party:
The kind where i lose a week and a half. Every year. |
Originally Posted by LetItSnow
(Post 1213962)
If it was only that easy... Putting the stock ECU back in, or anytime the battery is disconnected, all of the monitors switch to Not Ready. I wouldn't be able to just jack the stock ECU in, drive to the shop, and drive back out with a clean bill of health. The drive cycle to get the monitors to switch to Ready could take quite a bit of driving (the EGR one is the worst).
cause I've done this at least a few dozen times and it never took more than about 30 min of driving and 1 cold start. so at the worst the car would be "back to stock" for 2 days vs 1
Originally Posted by concealer404
(Post 1213963)
The kind where i lose a week and a half. Every year.
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My experience... I ran the bandaid option for about 2 years. Then I wanted to be reliable, consistent, and get the most out of my set up.
Being that you have more than one car and I'm guessing what 5,000 miles a year on the Miata maybe? Get your car inspected in April so every year you can swap ECU at the end of season drive enough to get the monitors to reset store the car and then first trip in the spring is to the inspection shop. Or inspect in Nov at the end of season. This way you're changing the ECU is never in the middle of a season. I bought a kit with Bandaids and it bothered me for so long that I honestly only drove the Miata to and from autox and a few times a year (3,000 or less miles a year). This year I am doing the full ECU and hope to have a more stable, safe, and reliable tune for driving around and autox. |
Originally Posted by 18psi
(Post 1213971)
you know this for a fact?
Since we're on topic, however, what do you need to do after swapping the ECU to keep from damaging the engine? |
What do you mean?
Like if you have the turbo stuff bolted on? Disconnect wastegate and stay out of boost. Done |
If you run a different computer, you'd have to unhook it and go back to stock computer to pass emmissions. As said, you can tie the wastegate OPEN so it won't build any boost and drive it and get it to pass with the turbo hardware still in place, so long as the emissions equipment is installed and working correctly. I'm more or less doing this with my car, sorta. I'm gonna have to swap injectors as 305's are enough for my build. I'm actually doing a parallel setup so I won't have to swap computers, both stay in the car, I'll just swap injectors, and swap ignition coils, install TB in stock location, take belt of SC, drive and test.
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Well, I'm an easy sell on Do Things Right the First Time Because It's Cheaper in the Long Run.
Am I going to struggle with keeping AC, PS and cruise if I choose the MS? |
Originally Posted by LetItSnow
(Post 1214180)
Am I going to struggle with keeping AC, PS and cruise if I choose the MS?
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Originally Posted by LetItSnow
(Post 1214180)
Well, I'm an easy sell on Do Things Right the First Time Because It's Cheaper in the Long Run.
Am I going to struggle with keeping AC, PS and cruise if I choose the MS? Realistically to go back for emissions testing you would unplug the MS and plug in your stock ECU. Block the vacuum line to the MS so you don't have a leak. Then disconnect the wastegate and don't go WOT. If you have swapped in larger injectors you will have to swap back to stock. I don't know what manifold you are using, but you will probably need the EGR pipe hooked up. |
The newer pnp units can be physically uninstalled in literally 5 minutes or less.
Yes, it is THAT easy. Every time I've weighed the pros/cons of piggy vs standalone (and I have, MANY times, because CA) no matter how I spin it, it just doesn't make sense to go piggy/bandaids. |
Originally Posted by 18psi
(Post 1214243)
The newer pnp units can be physically uninstalled in literally 5 minutes or less.
Yes, it is THAT easy. Every time I've weighed the pros/cons of piggy vs standalone (and I have, MANY times, because CA) no matter how I spin it, it just doesn't make sense to go piggy/bandaids. FWIW, I'm letting the stock computer in my setup do idle/AC/PS idle up, factory gauges, emissions equipment, alternator. Then let the MS do the important go-fast stuff. It's more weight/wiring/complexity, but the factory does these things perfectly, and I've messed with MS for years and they are not perfect all the time in my experience. s |
For the consensus of wisdom through experience, I'm going to go the MS route. With this, I've got to examine my fuel system plans again.
That said, with the welding talent and equipment that I have access to (neither of which is mine), I'm going to use a DIY manifold. Understanding that a ramhorn or other curvy manifold would flow better and more evenly, I might be best off at this point with a log for simplicity and economy. I will have an EGR pipe bung on it. Keeping the AC and PS, from the reading I've done here, I figure a high and forward mount would be best. |
Originally Posted by LetItSnow
(Post 1215331)
For the consensus of wisdom through experience, I'm going to go the MS route. With this, I've got to examine my fuel system plans again.
That said, with the welding talent and equipment that I have access to (neither of which is mine), I'm going to use a DIY manifold. Understanding that a ramhorn or other curvy manifold would flow better and more evenly, I might be best off at this point with a log for simplicity and economy. I will have an EGR pipe bung on it. Keeping the AC and PS, from the reading I've done here, I figure a high and forward mount would be best. |
Believe me, I've spent a lot of time in that thread. My concerns lie with the question of whether it would be biting off more than I can chew and the increase in opportunities for cracks. 404: Turbo Yoda not found. Am I overestimating the complexity of the manifold?
Edit: Ah, I got that thread mixed up with another one, which had some much more elaborate bits in it. |
Originally Posted by LetItSnow
(Post 1215345)
Believe me, I've spent a lot of time in that thread. My concerns lie with the question of whether it would be biting off more than I can chew and the increase in opportunities for cracks. 404: Turbo Yoda not found. Am I overestimating the complexity of the manifold?
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ECU is easy to swap, injectors aren't bad either.
But where I personally had "snags" with this approach on other cars is the exhaust system. Re-installing both primary and secondary o2 sensors more specifically. Usually requires using the stock exhaust, which means the stock manifold too, which means lots of dis-assembly obviously. Alternative? Build a full OBD2 compliant turbo exhaust, with a cat, and a place for the secondary sensor. And hope the slightly richer running turbo set up doesn't kill the cat (its only a matter of time, they usually dont last, even the spun core ones). EGR integration is something to think about as well. What I resorted to on the Integra was: Replacing the exhaust to stock, from the manifold back (including sensors). Stock ECU and Injectors go back in. It was worth it for once a year, to me, but it was much easier without an EGR or MAF, to deal with (assuming you choose to delete MAF when using MS). |
Originally Posted by NBoost
(Post 1215354)
ECU is easy to swap, injectors aren't bad either.
But where I personally had "snags" with this approach on other cars is the exhaust system. Re-installing both primary and secondary o2 sensors more specifically. Usually requires using the stock exhaust, which means the stock manifold too, which means lots of dis-assembly obviously. Alternative? Build a full OBD2 compliant turbo exhaust, with a cat, and a place for the secondary sensor. And hope the slightly richer running turbo set up doesn't kill the cat (its only a matter of time, they usually dont last, even the spun core ones). EGR integration is something to think about as well. What I resorted to on the Integra was: Replacing the exhaust to stock, from the manifold back (including sensors). Stock ECU and Injectors go back in. It was worth it for once a year, to me, but it was much easier without an EGR or MAF, to deal with (assuming you choose to delete MAF when using MS). |
Yes. However, I never knew how the stock ECU would handle an exhaust set up of that nature, even with the Primary and secondary sensors installed (with a turbo installed), and couldn't find anyone who actually did it that way successfully. It was my daily, so I didn't have time to try that method, plug in the stock ECU and then have the damned thing throw a CEL, all while after spending a few hundred dollars and fab'ing the test pipe and bolt in cat set up.
I also wasn't going to ignore the fact that I could swap to the whole stock exhaust, plug the oil feed and drains for the turbo, in about an hour. Done. No fabbing, no extra cat/test pipe laying around 364 days a year, no bull shit. |
All right, the MS3 is on order.
If the information in the FAQ is still valid, <injectors> are my next move. The challenge with that is that I don't have any parameters for choosing any power goals. I can say this: I want to keep the stock bottom end and 5-speed. If I have to choose an arbitrary number, how about 240chp? It's about 11lb/hp with me in the car and it handily reverse-maths to 370cc injectors (at 60psi, 0.55 BSFC and 80% duty cycle). If there's a better way to choose power, I'm all ears. In that regard, 370cc plug 'n' play injectors are available, and if I want some headroom in case I get crazy, I could grab some 420cc RX-8 injectors (same math, should be good for 275chp). I honestly don't think I'd need more. |
You want:
1) ev14 injectors. because price difference is small between mediocrity and excellence 2) if you get ev14 you can easily run as much as 600cc without sacrificing anything 3) this way if you later turn it up, you can, if you want to run e85, you can, etc. Right now the best "bang for buck" appear to be the ev14 ford injectors that many are starting to run. get a set of flow tested ones from nigelt with all the hardware and call it a day. great price too |
I'd say Rx8 injectors in the least (ev6). should support roughly 230-250rwhp.
then EV14 of any size. dont buy rx7 injectors or DW injectors. |
When it comes to modern injectors controlled by a modern EMS, there really is no such thing as "too much" until you go into the 1600+ sizes. My last miata, and the one before that, ran flawlessly on ID1000's on both pump gas and e85
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I can only believe that the higher the injector rate goes, the lower the resolution becomes. My ceiling for this build isn't very lofty.
I picked up a set of rebuilt and matched RX-8 yellow injectors, an Innovative MTX-L, a Stack boost gauge (hey, it matches the green and white on my dash) and my Braineack-built MS3X has arrived. That should be good for phase one. While I get used to tuning, I figure I can install any rather "inert" bits like heat shielding. Weir-Tech and several of its competitors in the flange market seem to have disappeared. :confused: While it's great to have so much to read, many vendors, links and photos have become obsolete, dried up or disappeared. Is there a current go-to company for exhaust and turbine flanges? |
Originally Posted by LetItSnow
(Post 1226008)
I can only believe that the higher the injector rate goes, the lower the resolution becomes.
.....in the 90's The rx8 injectors are only better than ev1 junk. There are so many better options out there now. Oh well, enjoy the hot restart injector heatsoak. |
Originally Posted by LetItSnow
(Post 1220573)
All right, the MS3 is on order.
If the information in the FAQ is still valid, <injectors> are my next move. The challenge with that is that I don't have any parameters for choosing any power goals. I can say this: I want to keep the stock bottom end and 5-speed. If I have to choose an arbitrary number, how about 240chp? It's about 11lb/hp with me in the car and it handily reverse-maths to 370cc injectors (at 60psi, 0.55 BSFC and 80% duty cycle). If there's a better way to choose power, I'm all ears. In that regard, 370cc plug 'n' play injectors are available, and if I want some headroom in case I get crazy, I could grab some 420cc RX-8 injectors (same math, should be good for 275chp). I honestly don't think I'd need more. That said...
Originally Posted by pretty much everyone, recently
Use ID1000s
Originally Posted by LetItSnow
(Post 1226008)
I can only believe that the higher the injector rate goes, the lower the resolution becomes. My ceiling for this build isn't very lofty.
Thing is, these Injector Dynamics injectors do in fact seem to be magical. I've heard, anecdotally, that the pintles are made from unicorn horn. And it's not like they're grinding 'em up and re-casting them; an entire horn is mounted on a lathe and cut down to make each individual injector- that's commitment to quality. Fortunately, for pussies like you and I, ID does make a smaller 750cc version of the venerable Alpha Injector. If I were building an engine today, and had no intention of running E85 and producing axle-breaking levels of torque, that's probably the injector I'd select. At $480 a set including pigtails*, they're quite reasonably priced. * = I have no experience with that vendor, they're just the one that ID redirects to. |
Nearly $500 for a set of injectors is "reasonably priced"?
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Originally Posted by 18psi
(Post 1226009)
The rx8 injectors are only better than ev1 junk. There are so many better options out there now. Oh well, enjoy the hot restart injector heatsoak.
Methinks we need a new - or at least updated - FAQ.
Originally Posted by Joe Perez
(Post 1226013)
370cc is rather small for your power goals. Based on personal experience, 420-440cc would be adequate with some headroom, albeit with a relatively small amount of growth potential.
Originally Posted by Joe Perez
(Post 1226013)
Thing is, these Injector Dynamics injectors do in fact seem to be magical. I've heard, anecdotally, that the pintles are made from unicorn horn. And it's not like they're grinding 'em up and re-casting them; an entire horn is mounted on a lathe and cut down to make each individual injector- that's commitment to quality.
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Leprechaun boogers.
But seriously, I told you to get ev14's and you didn't. I really was actually helping you, not sure how much more "heads up" I coulda given. The rx8's are not bad, at least they're better than some ancient ev1 rx7 injectors, but they do have that restart issue that we've all discussed time and time again on here. Not a deal breaker, but not great. The stockers actually do the same thing, as it's basically the same injector just a little smaller. |
2 Attachment(s)
Originally Posted by rleete
(Post 1226030)
Nearly $500 for a set of injectors is "reasonably priced"?
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The standard intarwebz disclaimer: My tone here is casual, not confrontational.
Originally Posted by 18psi
(Post 1226060)
I told you to get ev14's and you didn't.
I really was actually helping you, not sure how much more "heads up" I coulda given.
Originally Posted by 18psi
(Post 1226060)
[The RX-8 injectors] do have that restart issue that we've all discussed time and time again on here.
The struggle I'm having with this build is that the FAQ is spinning with injectors that I'm told I don't want and EM "aids" that I'm told I don't want, and that half of the direction I'm getting reads like Clarkson shouting "POWAHHHHH!!!" which is outside my scope, all while the Spoon-Fed Eggplant Police are looming. Now, I'm not asking anyone to do all my work. I've been pounding the Search function, and I'm trying to accumulate as much information about what's bad, what's good and what's good enough, as well as who knows what they're talking about and who's talking just to hear themselves. With everything I read about the RX-8 injectors (direct fit, reasonably recent product, fits my flow needs, good price cleaned and matched), they sure looked like a good way to go. nigelt's injectors, without trying to discredit them, are plenty over my flow demands, and they cost a good share more (and are increasing now and then). With no real reason for me to pay more for additional capacity, why would I? This is where you come in. ;) That said, I've got paid versions of TunerStudio and MegaLogViewer on my laptop, and I'm trying to settle on a location for the wideband gauge. It's a challenge to plant the thing discreetly - desirable, what with the car being perpetually unlocked because softtop and all. Thinking I'll just go A-pillar. :dunno: |
Originally Posted by LetItSnow
(Post 1226739)
With no real reason for me to pay more for additional capacity, why would I? This is where you come in. ;)
You're paying for the newer technology more than you're paying for capacity. That said, I've got paid versions of TunerStudio and MegaLogViewer on my laptop, and I'm trying to settle on a location for the wideband gauge. It's a challenge to plant the thing discreetly - desirable, what with the car being perpetually unlocked because softtop and all. Thinking I'll just go A-pillar. :dunno: I use a single din head unit, and stick the gauges into the "other" din using a mounting plate. works pretty good and not tacky |
Originally Posted by LetItSnow
(Post 1226739)
[i]...I'm trying to settle on a location for the wideband gauge. It's a challenge to plant the thing discreetly - desirable, what with the car being perpetually unlocked because softtop and all. Thinking I'll just go A-pillar. :dunno:
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1 Attachment(s)
A small step... here's what I came up with. A hole saw, a Dremel wheel and a file give you a wideband gauge mounted in a pocket. Add a bigger hole saw and that big fat bezel is sunk flush.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1430708693 I'm under the impression that I can't install the MTX-L's sensor in the stock bung, what with the one it's packaged with being an inch long and the manual going on about how the sensor is designed to go shallow into the exhaust stream to help with temperature control. There's another step for step one. |
9 Attachment(s)
Hey, all. Some updates:
For ease of reversability come inspection time, I grabbed one of Singular Motorsports' ECU brackets. Of the pile of holes in it, no four accommodate the MS3X. Drill, drill, and it fits. Note that if you do this, you'll want a USB cable with a right angle connector so it doesn't butt up against the firewall and you still have room for those immense harness cables. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1435420561 Yeh, it's not going under there (which is fine): https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1435420561 The top of the case touches the brake pedal bracket, but it's not a vicious fit: https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1435420561 Tipped this shot to show the pillar's natural orientation... I went for the A-pillar after all. The gauge body shows a bit because I hadn't pressed it in completely at this point. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1435420561 So, with the yellow injectors in, the MTX-L reading right and the stock IAT (I'll install the GM one post-intercooler and pre-heatsoak when things are more permanent there), autotune has been working great, making fewer and fewer adjustments. Idle and start are dreadful, though. If idle speed isn't 1700 RPM, it's cycling around 800-1200 while switching between open and closed loop idle. Open loop, it's about healthy at speed and AFR, but when closed loop kick in, it goes crazy lean and dumps down toward 500 RPM. Open and closed just go on and off like a yo-yo. I'm at a loss as to how to square this up. I haven't looked into how to fix the start yet, as idle is more important to me. It bogs a little bit before it gets to speed, although a little punch to the gas wakes it up quicker. My 500 RPM column can't be anywhere near correct. |
Update:
The intercooler and piping are in place, with the IAT sensor tapped into the cold side tank. I used the "expanded hole behind the headlight" method on the driver's side. The exhaust manifold parts should arrive complete by tomorrow afternoon. I opted for full mild with weld-els. A question: If I do an EGR blockoff, will the stock ECU throw a code if the EGR valve is still in place and connected? My option is to pick up a (or equivalent?) and fix that to the manifold. Further, I'm trying to sort a clean way to finish the exhaust. I know that more than one DIY has used the OE exhaust from the downpipe back. Nobody's going to recommend that, though. Am I best off picking up a downpipe/midpipe/cat assembly and DIYing the axleback? FM's out of stock, and I'm not certain what's worth buying beyond that. The only bit beyond that which I'm stumbling around is the oil feed. Good advice is welcome. Pics to follow... |
Originally Posted by LetItSnow
(Post 1254283)
Update:
The intercooler and piping are in place, with the IAT sensor tapped into the cold side tank. I used the "expanded hole behind the headlight" method on the driver's side. The exhaust manifold parts should arrive complete by tomorrow afternoon. I opted for full mild with weld-els. A question: If I do an EGR blockoff, will the stock ECU throw a code if the EGR valve is still in place and connected? My option is to pick up a (or equivalent?) and fix that to the manifold. Further, I'm trying to sort a clean way to finish the exhaust. I know that more than one DIY has used the OE exhaust from the downpipe back. Nobody's going to recommend that, though. Am I best off picking up a downpipe/midpipe/cat assembly and DIYing the axleback? FM's out of stock, and I'm not certain what's worth buying beyond that. The only bit beyond that which I'm stumbling around is the oil feed. Good advice is welcome. Pics to follow... |
2 Attachment(s)
Barring a bit of heat shielding, a mild loose wire tuck and a pile of tuning, I reckon it's done. I had a buddy fab up an extended EGR ferrule, another craft up and weld the manifold and downpipe, a local shop build up a pair of oil lines, and with a couple other mechanically inclined friends, I was able to come up with this:
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1440434421 I'll sling a few more shots of the works up here later; the anticipation of the cheers and jeers is killing me. ;) No apologies for the blue! |
Long time, everybody! The tuning went great, and I came up short of completing the boost map because my clutch started to give. I have a FM happy meal in the garage, ready to go in. Trick is, I have to sort out an overheating condition first.
So far: The coolant and oil both look healthy. There are no signs of leaks. The radiator I have now and the one before had the same results. The fans I have now and the OE ones before them both blow in the right direction. The OE thermostat I just installed and the OE thermostat that was in already had the same results. Both open properly. Update: Stant and Duralast (Autozone) thermostats have not changed things. I've got measurable airflow from the grille through to the back of the radiator, and no front license plate. I've used the magic funnel for best burp results. I've done the chemical combustion leak test, and the fluid stayed blue. My water pump was replaced with an OE unit when I did the timing belt about 3 years and 12k miles ago. The stock undertray is installed. I had a buddy come by who's a mechanic by trade, and he suggested that I ask you this: If you squeeze the upper radiator hose down pretty tight, will giving the throttle a hit give your hand a good bump with pressure? Same without squeezing the hose, will it make the coolant in superfunnel drop and pop back up? These are things he expects from experience, and they're not things that are happening right now! |
shrouding/ducting in order?
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Admittedly, no shrouding or ducting, but at idle with the hood open, a fan blowing into the bumper opening and the radiator fans running, the temp should be dropping - or at least stabilizing - and it's not.
Thoughts on my coolant questions? |
How do you use the magic funnel to burp the car? You need to lift the front of the car as high as you can and then put the funnel on. My method is that I let the car come up to temperature at idle with the nose in the air. I set the first fan to turn on at 207, and the second fan at 215.. Shut off at 200, or 195 if you want. I let the fans turn on and then turn off 3 times while keeping water in the funnel. Watch temps in tuner studio. After that I put the cap on and let the fans cycle one more time to make sure it is all working.
Also what fans do you have now? Are the expensive SPAL's? Or knockoffs? |
I've got the front end lifted, and I've been using the Haynes recommended method (reach temp, hold at 2500 for five minutes, bump to 3000 for five seconds, drop to idle, repeat four times). It worked when the car was N/A.
The fans I have now are knockoffs, but the stock fans didn't seem to fare any better. |
If the car overheats with the hood open you've got a problem. Chances are your fans not up to par.
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Yes, there's definitely a problem. I know there's no blockage to the radiator, the stock undertray is in place, I know the stock fans couldn't keep up, and I know that even simply cruising around town or on the highway didn't seem to make a difference. I don't think air is a problem.
I do want to know what you think of this, though:
Originally Posted by LetItSnow
(Post 1352081)
If you squeeze the upper radiator hose down pretty tight, will giving the throttle a hit give your hand a good bump with pressure? Same without squeezing the hose, will it make the coolant in superfunnel drop and pop back up?
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if you think your water pump is broken or clogged just replace it. really easy and really cheap. I've never heard of that "test" but I guess it might work to test that the pump is cycling the water. have you done compression/leakdown test? haven't heard of many Miata's losing a water pump only
PS: stock fans with stock shrouds can and do keep up. all but the very best aftermarket units are utter crap, and I would always stick to oem |
Go back to OEM fans. Unless you have the $200 SPAL fans, nothing aftermarket are as good.
When idling you should be able to cycle the fans on and off with temps not hitting much above when your fans turn on. |
I'll be pressure testing the cylinders on Friday. I know that the water pump should be fine, but if I can diagnose my problem solidly before spending more money, that would be preferential. OE fans are an interference fit with my coldside piping and FM antiroll bar.
I'll see how the pressure test goes. If the head gasket is good, I have to lean toward the water pump. I didn't break 9psi, which I didn't hit many times due to the clutch, but the hg has to be suspect. I'd really appreciate it if one of you (or more, why not) would put a glove on and check the hose pressure out for kicks. |
Originally Posted by LetItSnow
(Post 1352222)
if I can diagnose my problem solidly before spending more money, that would be preferential.
OE fans are an interference fit with my coldside piping and FM antiroll bar. As far as the pressure difference when you feel in the hose? Yes, it will go up when you increase RPM, because its a pump, and you are increasing its RPM. I always look at the simple things first. I wouldn't pressure test anything yet. |
The thing with that is, it was overheating the same with the stock fans and with the stock radiator. The fans should be wholly inconsequential at highway speeds, and it overheats there, too, just like with the stockers, all of this without boost. I'll give you the likelihood that the fans probably don't pull like the OE shrouded ones, but there's no room for them. (FWIW, when I said that the OE fans don't keep up, I didn't mean "they don't hold their own" - I meant they don't keep up with the problem in the cooling system.) The passenger side one would require so much trimming that it would lose a brace. If I'd be better off with the stock radiator and fans, then MT.net wisdom might be worth the time. Meanwhile, my problem definitely lies elsewhere.
If revving the engine should spike the pressure in the hose or bump the level of the fluid in superfunnel, then my water pump may well be hosed, its youth be damned. That would be preferential to the only alternative I can imagine at this point. I know they don't (and shouldn't) fail often, but it's not showing much for signs of life. Here's my plan: I'll try the Lars burp technique, and if that doesn't clean things up, I'm going to pressure test the cylinders. I can't blame any of the parts that I've changed nor their predecessors. That leaves me with air in the system, head gasket or water pump, unless anyone's got an idea that I've missed. |
Originally Posted by LetItSnow
(Post 1352377)
The thing with that is, it was overheating the same with the stock fans and with the stock radiator.
But yes, I don't expect any fan system working with a "hurt" cooling system to keep the temps at bay, it would be over-engineered at that point. Only other thing I could think of is maybe a faulty thermostat that isn't opening fully at operating temp, which also would restrict flow in the coolant system. Maybe throw another thermo at it first since its quite a bit easier to get to. |
Yeh, I think you missed it. That'll happen. :D
I put an OE thermostat in just a few days ago, replacing the OE one that was there already. I was hoping the same thing. No bueno. |
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