Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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-   -   The Portabull LFX Build (https://www.miataturbo.net/build-threads-57/portabull-lfx-build-87186/)

Miles 02-24-2016 08:28 AM

I purchased on of the BMW thermostat housings, nice unit and thanks...BTW, on my last race car, is used one of these 1998 BMW E39 528i Oil Filter Canister Housing 1437582 | eBay. Very efficient, and easy to mount. I treaded the two inlet/outlet holes for AN fittings. Most of the early BMWs had the same unit.

gooflophaze 02-26-2016 04:57 AM

Updated the cooling post with more pictures and expanded the expansion tank.

I should probably backtrack real quick and show installing the frame rails and getrag. I can probably post the intake as well. We had a slight delay last week and now we're finishing up the battery cables, power steering, and.. of course, wiring.

gooflophaze 02-28-2016 07:01 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Frame Rails

These are fairly straightforward so I wont spend too much time on them. You will probably need to bust out the BFH to beat your frame rails back into place so the reinforcements can slip over them.

We couldn't find clear documentation of where to place the rail - so we guessed. And we were wrong.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1456660904

Months later when we put our transmission in the crossmember holes were off. (Note: Crossmember goes *above* the frame rail tabs. This was a quick and dirty fitment.)

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1456660904

This was pretty easily remedied by redrilling the holes through the crossmember. But it'd be a bit easier to do it right the first time - certainly not worth redrilling the dozen or so holes per side.

Installing the hardware can be done solo if you can get a long enough wrench that'll wedge somewhere on the body to hold the bolt head, but it goes much quicker with 2 people. Snag some undercoat spray to shoot on through the holes and any raw metal on the frame rails.

Cujoel 02-28-2016 02:18 PM

I hope they come up with an installation guide since this is only the second thread I know about.

This came up just recently with a discussion I had with them installing the engine without a lift. Drop the engine and trans down from the top and lower it on to the front subframe. Lift the subframe with the engine up to the body and then mount the cross member and the frame rails. They said they did it this way because some cars are a little off or bent.

1999LFX 02-28-2016 05:28 PM

Definitely thank you very much for the help. We started up ours for the first time today. The video understates how loud the exhaust is (Enthuza single 3"exit exhaust that we modified to fit).


gooflophaze 02-28-2016 07:50 PM

1 Attachment(s)
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1456707011

Which enthuza is that? I've got my 3 inch turbo with the largest muffler you can stick under the trunk sitting in the corner...

We *almost* fired the engine today. I finished up the battery wiring yesterday and started double checking the harness connections - Turned on the A/C switch, no continuity. WTH. Grounded the fuel pump relay - no whirr. WTF. Okay.. CEL/MIL lamp - end to end continuity, so I got 1 out of 5 wires right...

Long story short - I wasted about 3 hours using the valve cover as a ground. Protip: The valve cover is not a ground. It's insulated as hell.

griff 02-28-2016 08:14 PM

Congrats 1999LFX!

Did you do your own harness or did you buy one from V8R?

1999LFX 02-28-2016 08:19 PM

It's this guy:

LS Miata Single exit

We let Jason know what we were doing and he sent the exhaust with the y pipe unwelded. With the Kooks downpipes, we were able to shorten the intermediate pipes and make everything work with having flexibility with the angles off the y. It's pretty loud though. With this being a dedicated track car, as long as I'm under max track sound levels, will leave it as is.

Still waiting on the radiator, otherwise we're ready to go once the new brake lines are run.

1999LFX 02-28-2016 08:25 PM


Originally Posted by griff (Post 1311855)
Congrats 1999LFX!

Did you do your own harness or did you buy one from V8R?

It's a V8r harness. But just for clarity's sake, with their harness, you still have to wire in a seperate fuse box and relay bank for your fuel pump and fans. So be prepaired for a decent wait on the order and then some solder action once you get it. I ended up using a painless 8 circuit fuse box and painless three relay bank to finish everything.

gooflophaze 02-28-2016 08:35 PM

Just to gauge how insane I might be - did you strip out the engine connectors out of the miata harness as well?

1999LFX 02-28-2016 09:10 PM


Originally Posted by gooflophaze (Post 1311863)
Just to gauge how insane I might be - did you strip out the engine connectors out of the miata harness as well?


Lol, not sure if you're more insane, but I basically tried to go as standalone as I could. Other than things like headlights, and the starter solenoid wire there really is no factory wiring in front of the firewall or under the car. Anywhere that I needed a connector that wasn't part of the new gm harness, I made a new weatherpack connector. I went with a set of Speedhut gauges to avoid dealing with the factory set.

One dumb mistake I did do however, was for the trigger wire on my auxiliary fuse box and relay bank that powers the complete new drivetrain, I tapped into the cigarette lighter circuit to trigger my relays. When you would turn the key into the "run" position, the gaues would light up, the fuel pump would kick on, everything multimetered out as having powrer, but when you would turn the key to crank the engine - nothing. No fuel, no spark, nothing. Here, that cigarette circuit shuts off during starter operation. So right when you can't be running around testing everything, there was no power to everything because the miata starter wire was triggering the starter solenoid from the "old" system but the new ecu was losing powrer as the cigarette lighter was cut cut. Picked up another ignition on power source to trigger my auxiliary fuse boxes and everything fired right up, but it was at least equal to your three hours on the ground issue.

gooflophaze 02-28-2016 09:23 PM

Yeap, difference between the ACC circuit and the IG1 & IG2 circuits. I'm about to redesign the lfx fusebox for the third time because I see a way to use more of the miatas fuses...

Cujoel 02-28-2016 09:56 PM

Where did you guys get a schematic? GM Camaro manual? Do the relays trigger off 12v or ground?

gooflophaze 02-28-2016 10:13 PM

1 Attachment(s)
You can pay $20 for a 3-day subscription to GM's Technet.

https://www.acdelcotds.com/acdelco/action/subscribehome

You need to download a plugin that appears to only work in Internet Explorer. (Yes, I can hear your groans from here).

I printed out most of the diagram and put it in my notebook - and even with the information it can be a pain. For example - in order for me to figure out what F5UA's circuit breaker value was, I'd have to look at the description page, cross reference that by the circuit number on a schematic, then look up the circuit number in the description of the main fuse box.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1456715617
(this is a bad example because the fuse value is obviously right there..)

Most of the circuits appear to be to ground, but I'm fearful of a mix. I'm hoping I'll be able to make this less painful once I verify I'm not going to burn the car to the ground and write it up.

griff 02-29-2016 12:35 AM


Originally Posted by 1999LFX (Post 1311821)
The video understates how loud the exhaust is (Enthuza single 3"exit exhaust that we modified to fit).

https://youtu.be/pmGnmjufG2E

I really like the way it sounds on the vid and I would love to open mine up as well but I think I an going to go with a Borla 3" and resonators just to avoid being that overly obnoxious guy at the stop light.

Zaphod 02-29-2016 06:57 AM

I really like that gauge setup, what gauges are these?

1999LFX 02-29-2016 07:29 AM

2 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by Zaphod (Post 1311924)
I really like that gauge setup, what gauges are these?


They're Speedhuts. Took about a month to get them once ordered, but you can basically pick any color combo, text font, bezels, and whatnot. They're also fairly shallow gauges, so they fit well in the dash, and are a little more flexible/programable than Autometers (just hoping they're as reliable).

Here's a day shot as I was test fitting them, and a night shot with the brightness turned all the way up.


https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1456748968



https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1456748968

gooflophaze 02-29-2016 08:06 AM

1 Attachment(s)
How much did they set you back?

While we're on the issue I feel like I should reveal I'm working on producing my own instrument cluster adapter. On my dads car we'll be reading off the ECM using and outputting it to an NB cluster (In a NA8 chassis.. with a NA6 dash..). I've gotten control of the speedo/tach/coolant already, I'm working on getting the oil pressure gauge to work linearly (will need some modification to the gauge itself - super slow response and only capable of ~50 degrees of movement), and I've already got some experience with CANBus - just need to finish the car so I can use it as a test mule. On the days I'm not wrenching, I'm usually coding this up. The Miata tach is somewhat nefariously inaccurate, but I've written user-settable correction factors every 500rpm, as well as an easy speedo correction.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1456751190

Proto on the left, first board on the right (sent the wrong file to the fab, d0h!).

griff 02-29-2016 10:49 AM

1999LFX...

If you dont mind can you do a write up on your cluster and let us know what part numbers were used for your gauges. Things like what sending units were used and where each gauge gets its signal from. I think many will be interested given the challenges of converting rpm signal when using a v6 and the NA folks also have a manual speedo to deal with. We can go to a NB cluster once gooflophaze works his magic down the road but it wold be nice to have a few options documented.

Also...what did you end up doing for your hood?

I want to find a hood scoop that will clear the intake and flow with the lines on the hood without too much cat hair being used.

I must have watched your video a dozen times last night just wishing I had mine running. Nice work....

portabull 02-29-2016 11:43 AM


Originally Posted by 1999LFX (Post 1311821)
We started up ours for the first time today.

exciting!

Texinteg 02-29-2016 02:15 PM

The pictures of the gauges don't do it justice. The color pops in real life. Hopefully the radiator will get here soon so we can take it out for a drive. Need to get some experience driving this car before the season starts.

Texinteg 02-29-2016 02:17 PM


Originally Posted by griff (Post 1311976)
1999LFX...

If you dont mind can you do a write up on your cluster and let us know what part numbers were used for your gauges. Things like what sending units were used and where each gauge gets its signal from. I think many will be interested given the challenges of converting rpm signal when using a v6 and the NA folks also have a manual speedo to deal with. We can go to a NB cluster once gooflophaze works his magic down the road but it wold be nice to have a few options documented.

Also...what did you end up doing for your hood?

I want to find a hood scoop that will clear the intake and flow with the lines on the hood without too much cat hair being used.

I must have watched your video a dozen times last night just wishing I had mine running. Nice work....


The Hood Clears on an NB by trimming the reinforcements on the under side and shaving the top of the plastic intake manifold. This car is going to be a beast to drive. I cant wait to take it for a spin.

griff 02-29-2016 02:59 PM


Originally Posted by Texinteg (Post 1312057)
The Hood Clears on an NB by trimming the reinforcements on the under side and shaving the top of the plastic intake manifold. This car is going to be a beast to drive. I cant wait to take it for a spin.

Sorry I forgot the NBs clear the intake. Lucky dogs!!!

unk577 02-29-2016 08:02 PM


Originally Posted by Texinteg (Post 1312057)
The Hood Clears on an NB by trimming the reinforcements on the under side and shaving the top of the plastic intake manifold. This car is going to be a beast to drive. I cant wait to take it for a spin.

The LFX is a blast to drive in the Miata. Sold my LS Miata to bull one after driving a LFX miata.

1999LFX 02-29-2016 10:47 PM

9 Attachment(s)
On the gauges, I picked up the "speedhut" series for $575 for the compete six gauge kit. I ordered each gauge indivually customized, no so kit part number, but they have an infinite number of combos on their site. They also have standard configuration gauges available for Amazon Prime shipping if you want just the black face and silver bezel gauges. I ordered mine back in December so was fine with the wait time.

I don't have pictures of each step, but here goes.

This is what I wanted:

https://www.flyinmiata.com/blank-gau...na-and-nb.html

but it was out of stock, so picked up some 1/8 aluminum from my metal supplier and made my own.


https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1456804047

Use some thin but sturdy cardboard for the template for the blank panel, and then placed traceouts of the gauge holes on the cardboard to mock up where you will use the hole saws. There really is very little room for error if you are planning on running a full set of speedo, tach, coolant, oil, volt and fuel.


https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1456804047


If you've located your hole saw placement just right, you'll have minimal clearance issues. By that, I mean you'll only need to dremel the retainer lock rings on the back side of the gauges just a little to be able to spin each individually to toghten them. This sounds worse than reality, unless your hole saw placement was way off.

On to gauge hook up.

For the tach,you need to tap into an ignition control wire on one of the coils. I use an Alldata DIY subscription for $30 per year, which has all the wiring diagrams and connector views. You want to pick up wire "C" on the coil plug. It's the wire that changes color from coil to coil.


https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1456804047

The tach programming instructions are pretty self intuitive for calibration.

On the speedo, I haven't driven the car yet, so can't completely confirm this works, but you need to pick up the speed output and ground off the vehicle speed sensor. This is wires 1 and 3, respectively on the connector. Once you can drive the car, you will drive to the preset speed and set the speedometer to that speed, so you will need a gps unit or phone app or friend. One option is to just upgrade to the GPS speedo unit - not a bad idea and something I wished I had done. The speedhut gauges are compatible with other gps sending units, so still an option.


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...fd2af4291b.jpg

Oil gauge: this one is lots of fun. You need to remove the filter housing in order to drill and tap into the same oil galley thay the stock gauge sending unit taps into. Hard to find anywhere else, and this is where V8r told me to tap into. I would say that a drill press is mandatory. There's not a lot of room for error here.

on the side of the filter housing:

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1456804047

Just a reminder, you'll be using a NPT tap. Do not run the tap all the way in. You'll likely bottom out the sending unit before you fully tighten up the treads. 2/3rds of the tap run in is probably fine. Once done, clean the filter housing, then clean it agian, and then clean it again for good luck. No upside in metal shavings finding their way into the engine.


https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1456804047

water temp: this one is a little easier. Under the water neck, there is a flat boss area that is easy to drill and tap for the sending unti. I was able to do this without removing the water neck by blocking the passage way into the engine from inside the water neck and hitting the opening with the shop vac to make sure any metal shavings were not left behind.


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...8d453571f.jpeg


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...c4110c19f.jpeg

Volt gauge: pick up an ignition hot wire.

Fuel gauge, pickip the factory sender output and follow the speedhut programjng instructions for setting full and empty settings. Pretty nice compared to set Ohm ranges on other gauges.

on your check engine light, I put mine (painless wiring led) in the center ofnthe gauges. It should glow lightly when normal and bright when it's tripped a code. The ecu provides the ground, and you provide the 12v.

For headlight high beem indicators, you need to tap into the miata solid red wire from the instrument cluster. Left turn is the green w/black wire, right turn is green w/ white wire. These little led indicators are built into the speedo.

Speedhut provides a convenient daisy chain to power the gauges along with a dimmer, so that is nice.

I've probably missed a few things here and there, but please feel free to let me lnow of any questions.


https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1456804047

And just in case you're really crazy, speed dawg can send you a custom shift knob to match your gauges with the proper shift pattern.


https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1456804047

griff 03-01-2016 12:10 AM

Thanks for the killer write up and it looks like SKU: GR338-SPEEDO-03T is a good starting place from speedhut.com

That is a 6 gauge combo with 3-3/8" speedo/Tach and 2-1/16" fuel/volt/oil/water.

1999LFX 03-01-2016 05:52 AM

Also, speedhut offers a set of Can Bus gauges that I wanted to try but decided against it. These would have been basically plug and play, with no drilling and tapping. After seeing one of the guys on the Atlanta forum wasn't able to run Can Bus gauges on his LFX, and reading (correctly or incorrectly) that the ecu could only run one device via can bus at a time, I decided to go this route since I will probably be running a obdii port dongle at some point and would want my gauges still working. Again, I could be off in those assumptions, but felt running traditional gauges was a sure way of knowing everything would work.

gooflophaze 03-01-2016 07:29 AM

I think you've parsed that incorrectly on the canbus - carnut169 used a racepak (93 Miata LFX build - Page 4) that could read canbus. And the ECU can certainly support more than one device - heck, we've gotten rid of the transmission, body, and dash (camaro gauge cluster is largely canbus driven) controllers.

1999LFX 03-01-2016 08:57 AM


Originally Posted by gooflophaze (Post 1312297)
I think you've parsed that incorrectly on the canbus - carnut169 used a racepak (93 Miata LFX build - Page 4) that could read canbus. And the ECU can certainly support more than one device - heck, we've gotten rid of the transmission, body, and dash (camaro gauge cluster is largely canbus driven) controllers.

Good to know, thanks.

gooflophaze 03-02-2016 07:29 PM

About as loud as you would expect open headers. Even shoots flames.


griff 03-02-2016 09:19 PM

HOLY HOT DAMN!!!!! CONGRATS bud!

1999LFX 03-02-2016 09:48 PM


Originally Posted by gooflophaze (Post 1312841)
About as loud as you would expect open headers. Even shoots flames.


Big congrats! And here I thought mine was loud, ha. That's great.

Cujoel 03-02-2016 11:01 PM

That's awesome! What are you going to do for an exhaust? Dual 2.25" into a single 3"?

gooflophaze 03-02-2016 11:34 PM

Thanks, pretty big day after plenty of (smallish, annoying) problems.

Short summary:
HPTuners application key incorrect (shipping snafu, wrong SN).
Tuning laptop would reboot if you breathed on it (Battery is dead, a/c port is iffy. It takes ~8 minutes to flash the ECU, didn't want to chance a brick).
Alternative laptop - loaded the software, forgot the FTDI drivers (in an area with 0 cell reception/internet).

And if you can't tell by the test leads hanging around the ECM, I've still gotta make some more changes to the wiring. Radiator fans are functional, fuel pump relay is not. Similar to tunerstudio there are test outputs that you can turn on and off, but most of the HPTuners settings refer to the high pressure pump and I didn't want to chance doing something bad (hydrolocking a cylinder with fuel). Since we have an automatic ECU I need to do a segment flash to a manual transmission to get the VSS working.

I'm debating increasing the wiring integration with the miata fusebox vs a "3 wire" standalone harness that all the cool kids do. Better integration will free up more spots in the auxiliary box that may come in handy when I get around to A/C and overall "cleaner". With standalone, you disconnect 3 wires (and 2 harnesses) at the cost of more spaghetti in the aux box and having to lay ring terminals over top of each other in the miata fusebox.

Called Jason at Enthuza - business is good and he's too busy filling orders to fab an exhaust. But he did recommend a local shop that has a mandrel bender in house. Because (not) racecar, catted, resonated, good tone > flow (within reason). We do want to get the precats ceramic coated.

But now that we know the engine runs and the magic smoke didn't come out of the wires, we can start throwing fluids in and torquing stuff.

AlwaysBroken 03-02-2016 11:39 PM

That sounds badassed.

Cujoel 03-09-2016 09:12 AM

"Bolts - hey, this is kinda important. Three times we got the wrong flywheel bolts - kept giving us flex plate bolts. The proper bolts are allen head, not hex head. Oh - and the flywheel bolts aren't evenly spaced. That was a few minutes of confusion and cursing while holding a 30lb flywheel."


Crank to Flywheel - 11569956, 8x req"

Did the bolts for the flywheel work out? The part number you listed is for the v-8 and an 11mm x 1.5 thread. I found Part #11518862 M10X1X15.5)

gooflophaze 03-09-2016 12:07 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Crap, you're right, I'm looking at the wrong spreadsheet. I can't edit that section though..

I have 11518862 in the spreadsheet as the automatic hex head bolts. I need to look for the bag that the bolts came in.. if I can find it.

Just looked up 11518862 on ebay - those are definitely the automatic flexplate bolts.

Dealership GM General Motors Chevrolet 11518862 8 Bolt Engine Flywheel | eBay

We've been very busy the last couple of days. Had a pinhole leak in the coolant pipe - drained, removed, filled, fixed. Also managed to blow out a power steering hose (my fault.. had a stainless braid get caught in the olive.. good news is you can buy a premade length for $30).

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1457543269

Shoved some 2.25 flex pipe over the exhaust stubs yesterday to redirect the flames away from the body and ran the engine all the way up to 210 degrees. No more leaks to report. And once again I'm re-re-rewiring the fuse box(es).

Right now I'm playing with ideas on how to better run the fuel pump. Turns out the e39 ECM provides a square wave to the fuel pump controller that in turn runs PWM to the pump itself. This signal wire won't work for a relay-switched pump. If it was racecar, the pump would be switchpaneled anyway. But just having the fuelpump turned on with ignition just seems.. hackish, even with the C6 FPR.

griff 03-09-2016 01:31 PM

I must say it feels good to see others spend as much time on wiring as I do....mainly because it makes me feel a little less OCD.

K_sr20 03-09-2016 04:53 PM

That gauge cluster is absolutely beautiful. This is an awesome project.

Cujoel 03-09-2016 10:02 PM

"Right now I'm playing with ideas on how to better run the fuel pump. Turns out the e39 ECM provides a square wave to the fuel pump controller that in turn runs PWM to the pump itself. This signal wire won't work for a relay-switched pump. If it was racecar, the pump would be switchpaneled anyway. But just having the fuelpump turned on with ignition just seems.. hackish, even with the C6 FPR."

PWM? Pulse width modulator? Hmmm... a square wave that's odd. Is the engine supposed to vary the fuel pressure?

gooflophaze 03-09-2016 10:47 PM

From what I've pieced together when my original plan of "connect ECM pin to FP relay - wait, why can't i hear it prime?" fell through..

There's a fuel pump drive module (PN 22874300) that reads the square wave (I seem to recall reading somewhere it was 25hz - I haven't bothered dragging my oscope to the shop yet. I was able to see 2.5v on my multimeter though) sent by the ECM, and the module drives the fuel pump via PWM. Since the LFX is direct injection (~2200psi), the fuel pump that's in the tank is more like an old school mechanical pump that draws the fuel to the carb float bowl. The module appears to read line and tank pressure and has some canbus pins - so it's doing pressure regulation without the use of a mechanical/diaphragmed regulator - I think.

Now - since we've got the Corvette FPR we don't have to worry about pressure. But I am thinking about sticking in a inertia switch that'll cut power to the pump in case of a shunt. Otherwise, it'll just whine a lot with the ignition on. After reading up on fuel boil, I don't think it'll be a huge issue since it's a modern tank, but it would be nice to extend the life of the pump if we don't have to don't have to drive it 100% of the time.

I'm still looking into an easy way of doing this - course, I might be overthinking it. I'm sure the way I've got it right now will work.

Oh - and thanks for reminding me about alldata. The AC Delco link I posted earlier does have a little bit better information (I haven't found a wiring schematic on alldata yet), but I hate plopping down $20 every time I need to verify something. I found a coupon code online and snagged a years access for $10.

Cujoel 03-10-2016 03:22 PM

I'm thinking there's more to it, if they went through all that trouble for a fuel pump signal. My guess is the engine really needs a variable fuel pressure regulator. Sounds like the money I saved buying a stock clutch is going towards buying a GM factory manual unless you have it figured out by the time I get that far. At a minimum I want the fuel pump to shut off when the engine isn't running.

gooflophaze 03-10-2016 05:54 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Nah, it's just a tightly integrated system. You lose the diaphragm (analog technology, fairly reliable, annoying to troubleshoot when it does go bad since you have to hook up pressure gauges and you suspect the fuel pump first) in favor of a pump with a feedback system that can throw DTC's with ease. The pump life is lengthened by using PWM - so lets throw it into an assembly with the fuel pressure sensor and fuel level sensor and it should last past the warranty period. And when it goes bad, we'll just have the tech swap the whole thing instead of plumbing billable time fittings for the pump.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1457650483

I've dug a little further into HPTuners and looked at the aftermarket - Except for the ZL1 (LT1) Camaro, the SS (LS3) and LFX use the same pump assembly. When you cross over 600hp, people are upgrading to the ZL1 pump assembly. These are the stock settings from HPTuners -

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1457650483

So you can see that the pump is mostly providing your standard 3 bar fuel pressure. Aeromotive makes a fuel controller ($$$$) for > 1000hp v8's ($$$$$$) on top of their own drop-in pump - but its primary market is for the LS3's are still using that 3 bar pressure for fuel injectors, less-so for the LT1.

I'm still confident the C6 vette regulator will do the job. I think that might be possible to turn off the fuel pump by tying it to the powertrain relay - but you'll lose the prime pulse, which'll make starting much harder at the very least and possibly damage the high pressure pump if it's like a diesel (I'm assuming.. I know just enough about diesel engines to be dangerous).

griff 03-10-2016 07:35 PM

I guess I'm not really surprised the fuel system works this way since GM has apparently been doing this since the vortec engines started being used for the reasons you already stated. My old mans Suburban gave me fits trying to figure out what part of the fuel system had failed. Ended up being the fuel pump control module that was sandwiched between the cross member and the fuel tank so I had to drop the tank anyway just to get to it.

anyway....

I figure I am just going to relay my fuel pump off the "key on constant" like the ECU but I was trying to think of how you would achieve a "as needed" relay. I think you are best off just using a fuel pump switch if you want to be able to shut off the pump in ACC only situations.

Cujoel 03-10-2016 10:59 PM

I did a little researching. The solution isn't so bad. You can buy stuff off the shelf.

PWM output for fuel pump control - ChevyTalk - FREE Restoration and Repair Help for your Chevrolet

or somebody who make a converter (from the above link)

Other Control

gooflophaze 03-10-2016 11:22 PM

That second link looks like it's expecting an analog TPS signal, not sure how well that'd jive with the DBW system.

If I were inclined to make this work like the GM system, I'd try and snag a controller and fuel pump assembly, try and map out the fuel pressure to voltage curve of the built in pressure sensor, find a discrete sensor that closely matched it and install it in line from the tank output. You'd also need to discard the C5 FPR and filter setup, and possibly install a fuel tank pressure sensor for the controller.

Could also put the fp relay in line with a fuel safe pressure switch, that's a fairly simple closed loop system.. not sure how we'll it'd work with hysteresis though..

Could also possibly do a 555 timer to latch a relay for 5 seconds in one shot mode and have that or'd into the powertrain relay.. that'd give you a priming pulse.

Plenty of ways to skin this cat.

Either way.. I picked up an inertia switch from a 90's mustang at the junkyard today for $2 (also snagged: eclipse vents, auto-dimming rearview mirror with compass and homelink, pocket full of fuses, and another NB gauge cluster to test on. Pretty good haul). I'll wire the switch in-line with the relay and stick it under the hood and put my fuel pump concerns to bed.

Cujoel 03-11-2016 09:15 AM

I think I want to keep my fuel system as simple as possible, going to the corvette FPW, but I would like to have the functionality of a couple things. The priming pulse and an automatic shut off if the engine is not running.

griff 03-11-2016 12:27 PM

https://www.dccdpro.com/product/fuelpro/

May be another option and pretty reasonable at $169. Looks like the controller needs a 5 volt square wave signal with a duty cycle of %35 to %95 from the ECU. If you get a chance it would be cool to see what the o-scope has to say on the signal from the ECU. Once we know for sure what it is sending we can look for specific solutions.

Cujoel 03-12-2016 01:18 PM

Just out of curiosity, what version of HP Tuners do you have? I have 2.23 and it didn't have the fuel control tables you showed. It might be nothing. The last car I used it on was a 99 corvette.

gooflophaze 03-13-2016 12:08 AM

3.0 - Thought I needed the segment swapper to change the transmission to a manual, but it looks like it's all settings. I may try out 2.24, 3.0 seems a little underbaked. Plus when I need to look up how to check a setting it's usually 2.2x instructions.

That fuel pump controller looks more right - but I'd need to hit multiple fueling zones to verify outputs, and that's not going to happen without a dyno.

I think I've finally finished my wiring, had the alternator all hooked up and ready to roll today - and the car wouldn't start. Argh. Looks like the E39 hates a weak battery - dropped to 8.3v while cranking and wouldn't start. Hopefully the charger brings it back to life.

Cujoel 03-14-2016 04:09 PM

You can tune with a wideband as well. I'm not an HP Tuners guru, but I've got a coworker who does it all the time. It's a lot of trial and error.

Now you have me curious about the fuel pressure. I see the low and high values in your post. Does fuel pressure change vs RPM or only on WOT? I guess I can pull a download from the HP Tuners forum and check it out.

My understanding is the ECU will always try to drive to 14.7 AFR except under WOT. It makes me wonder if the car will even run right with a standard mechanical FPR and a stock tune without throwing codes.

1999LFX 03-14-2016 04:18 PM


Originally Posted by Cujoel (Post 1315697)
You can tune with a wideband as well. I'm not an HP Tuners guru, but I've got a coworker who does it all the time. It's a lot of trial and error.

Now you have me curious about the fuel pressure. I see the low and high values in your post. Does fuel pressure change vs RPM or only on WOT? I guess I can pull a download from the HP Tuners forum and check it out.

My understanding is the ECU will always try to drive to 14.7 AFR except under WOT. It makes me wonder if the car will even run right with a standard mechanical FPR and a stock tune without throwing codes.

Not a tuner by any means, but using V8R's tune, upgraded miata fuel pump, and C6 filter/regulator, and the car runs hard to redline with no hiccips, flat spots, or codes. I'd like to get the car on a dyno here soon and verify how it's running, but after having driven it twice, very happy with it.

stefanst 03-14-2016 04:20 PM


Originally Posted by gooflophaze (Post 1311933)
...I'm working on getting the oil pressure gauge to work linearly (will need some modification to the gauge itself - super slow response and only capable of ~50 degrees of movement)...

You can increase the movement a little, but I think you're maxing out about 70 degrees or so. I was checking my instrument cluster ('99 NB) and realized that the water temp gauge moves a lot faster than the oil-pressure gauge, so I swapped those two, since water temp really shouldn't need any kind of speed.

They are both incredibly non-linear, so I had to replace/remove a few of the resistors (i may be able to dig up my information on that if you're interested). Even with some messing with the resistors they are still quite non-linear, but a microcontroller and pwm-ed FETs take care of that.

Cujoel 03-14-2016 05:00 PM


Originally Posted by 1999LFX (Post 1315700)
Not a tuner by any means, but using V8R's tune, upgraded miata fuel pump, and C6 filter/regulator, and the car runs hard to redline with no hiccips, flat spots, or codes. I'd like to get the car on a dyno here soon and verify how it's running, but after having driven it twice, very happy with it.

I will probably land up going that route. It looks to be the easiest way to do things. I may just download the baseline tune to compare what they did.

As far as the C6 filter regulator, don't you mean C6? I think the C6 filter is in the pump. The later C5 had a returnless fuel rail with the regulator/filter mounted in the back like a lot guys doing with the Miata.

Leafy 03-14-2016 07:29 PM


Originally Posted by Cujoel (Post 1315697)
You can tune with a wideband as well. I'm not an HP Tuners guru, but I've got a coworker who does it all the time. It's a lot of trial and error.

Now you have me curious about the fuel pressure. I see the low and high values in your post. Does fuel pressure change vs RPM or only on WOT? I guess I can pull a download from the HP Tuners forum and check it out.

My understanding is the ECU will always try to drive to 14.7 AFR except under WOT. It makes me wonder if the car will even run right with a standard mechanical FPR and a stock tune without throwing codes.

On all the HP tuner cars I've worked on we always ran the wideband in through the egr position or a/c pressure sensor.

gooflophaze 03-14-2016 09:31 PM

2 Attachment(s)
I was looking through my pictures last night writing the first installment of the wiring section and noticed that this was taken exactly one year ago.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1458005488

And today we put the interior back in. w00t. :party::party::party:

It was indeed the battery that was a little flat. Couple hours on the charger and it cranks right up. Just need to put in the NB cluster, wire the stereo, retape my wiring harness.. and the next week we'll hopefully have the exhaust installed.


Originally Posted by stefanst (Post 1315701)
gauge stuff

Yeap - I'll have to do some correction factors in software once I get full movement. It'll have to be doubly annoying because who knows if you pushed the needle back on at the right position. Then again, you could also make the argument for having the extremes being more sensitive. For the moment in my dads car, I'll be replicating a switch-like threshold.


Originally Posted by Cujoel (Post 1315714)
As far as the C6 filter regulator, don't you mean C6? I think the C6 filter is in the pump. The later C5 had a returnless fuel rail with the regulator/filter mounted in the back like a lot guys doing with the Miata.

Sorry, fatfinger/misremember. C5 FPR is what we're running. We put all the carpet in today and despite being an upgraded walbro 255lph hp, it sounds.. like a fuel pump. No more whine.

Cujoel 03-15-2016 11:55 AM

Must feel great to come so far. BTW are you using that brace that connects the transmission to the diff? I saw a picture of one of the V-8 guys making it work, but I couldn't tell exactly how he did it from the picture.

gooflophaze 03-21-2016 09:24 PM

2 Attachment(s)
No PPF brace - I figure that Mazda spent considerable engineering effort in designing it, and all those calculations go out the window when you shove another power plant, subframe, and crossmember in.

Apologies for not posting up the wiring - I've been very busy. Resurrected our tow vehicle that's been sitting for 3 years, dealing with leaking diesel and glow plug wires grounding against the frame. Ultimately, dropped the car off at the exhaust shop today.

I've got a major issue I'm trying to hunt down - if anyone could lend me a hand with this or just bounce ideas, it'd be much appreciated. I can't get a valid VSS signal from HPTuners - it reads 158mph (0xFF, 255kmh == 158mph). This is a blocking issue for getting the car registered once the exhaust is finished (will need mileage to get the OBDII readiness set). I think it's because my E39a ECM is from an automatic, and despite changing the transmission type in HPTuners. I think the bits are missing. From what I understand - HPTuners just modifies bits, doesn't install new ones. From what I've grok'd from other forums, this is the failure mode when the Transmission Control Module is missing.

The VSS sensor appears to be a hall type, based on A. it makes sense and B. power, ground, and signal wires from the harness. If anyone has their transmission on the ground and could yank the sensor out, count and take a shot of the teeth, and stick something ferrous to see if the teeth are magnetic - it'd be a huge help.

I've poured over the wiring diagrams a dozen times now to verify my inputs. To further complicate things, the alldatadiy diagrams do not match the VSS input pin from the acdelco site (X1 43 vs X2 8). I went so far as to tap the VSS wire with my scope and snag a trace with the car in 5th while idling, but it doesn't look valid. I *think* the VSS pin must have a software-enabled pullup that I'm lacking - if only I had a 10k resistor at my shop I could have verified at the time.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1458609845

Doesn't help that there's a lot of noise. Either that, or my VSS is busted. I might snag a sensor from rockauto and try it out on the bench.

The other way to fix this is to have someone with GM's tech2 reflash the ECM. I talked briefly with a service manager at a dealership who said they could reflash for $110 - which I'm sure is the price of a stock reflash (insert VIN, push bits out). I wish could have talked directly to a tech. Since I think HPTuners hashes their credits based on the VIN, and I think Tech2 is mostly-automated (input VIN, database lookup for options to program, flash bits). I might be better off snagging another Camaro ECM from a junkyard and burning another 2 hptuner credits on disabling VATS - and then I have 2 (sorta) working ECM's.

Oh - and here's a (mostly complete) picture of the engine bay. Just need to lick this VSS problem then I can finish wrapping the harnesses.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1458609845

griff 03-21-2016 09:30 PM

Man I wish I could help you and I have been thinking a good deal about how I will get the VSS to send to the new speedo gauge and send to the ECU. I guess there is a chance the ECU will not need the signal but if it does I doubt I will be able to send to both with the same sensor without creating interference. Wonder if Sean can help out or if 99LFX has his licked.

1999LFX 03-21-2016 09:50 PM


Originally Posted by gooflophaze (Post 1317428)
No PPF brace - I figure that Mazda spent considerable engineering effort in designing it, and all those calculations go out the window when you shove another power plant, subframe, and crossmember in.

Apologies for not posting up the wiring - I've been very busy. Resurrected our tow vehicle that's been sitting for 3 years, dealing with leaking diesel and glow plug wires grounding against the frame. Ultimately, dropped the car off at the exhaust shop today.

I've got a major issue I'm trying to hunt down - if anyone could lend me a hand with this or just bounce ideas, it'd be much appreciated. I can't get a valid VSS signal from HPTuners - it reads 158mph (0xFF, 255kmh == 158mph). This is a blocking issue for getting the car registered once the exhaust is finished (will need mileage to get the OBDII readiness set). I think it's because my E39a ECM is from an automatic, and despite changing the transmission type in HPTuners. I think the bits are missing. From what I understand - HPTuners just modifies bits, doesn't install new ones. From what I've grok'd from other forums, this is the failure mode when the Transmission Control Module is missing.

The VSS sensor appears to be a hall type, based on A. it makes sense and B. power, ground, and signal wires from the harness. If anyone has their transmission on the ground and could yank the sensor out, count and take a shot of the teeth, and stick something ferrous to see if the teeth are magnetic - it'd be a huge help.

I've poured over the wiring diagrams a dozen times now to verify my inputs. To further complicate things, the alldatadiy diagrams do not match the VSS input pin from the acdelco site (X1 43 vs X2 8). I went so far as to tap the VSS wire with my scope and snag a trace with the car in 5th while idling, but it doesn't look valid. I *think* the VSS pin must have a software-enabled pullup that I'm lacking - if only I had a 10k resistor at my shop I could have verified at the time.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1458609845

Doesn't help that there's a lot of noise. Either that, or my VSS is busted. I might snag a sensor from rockauto and try it out on the bench.

The other way to fix this is to have someone with GM's tech2 reflash the ECM. I talked briefly with a service manager at a dealership who said they could reflash for $110 - which I'm sure is the price of a stock reflash (insert VIN, push bits out). I wish could have talked directly to a tech. Since I think HPTuners hashes their credits based on the VIN, and I think Tech2 is mostly-automated (input VIN, database lookup for options to program, flash bits). I might be better off snagging another Camaro ECM from a junkyard and burning another 2 hptuner credits on disabling VATS - and then I have 2 (sorta) working ECM's.

Oh - and here's a (mostly complete) picture of the engine bay. Just need to lick this VSS problem then I can finish wrapping the harnesses.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1458609845

Just thinking aloud here, since you're modifying the factory gauges, could you use an autometer GPS speedometer sending unit as your source?


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