Pouring life blood and $$ into my MSM build
 

This story is a sad one with no end.

My first car was a Volvo 240DL...it was AWESOME. I actually bought this car because it was the only one my parents would give me a loan for. I'm saying it was awesome because its awesome NOW. I never fully liked and appreciated the actual potential of the car when I had it and sold it when the clutch went. Knowing what I do now...I would have never sold it to buy an great car like a prelude:

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1385499526
Now this car was "funner" to drive then the Volvo and a lot nicer to look at. It gave me the motivation to start working on vehicles and enjoying the progress. Probably something I should have done with the Volvo since it would have been a much better platform. Something still didn't feel right...It was light'ish compared the Volvo, very comfortable though, but still lacking a certain "feel". Maybe it was RWD. Either way...after owing the car for 5 years and going through 3 engines and 5 transmissions, I got rid of it. I even shed a tear when it left my dooryard.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1385499526

Fast Forward a few years...above was my second Miata (the first was a red 90 with a bad crank I JB welded and sold for a slight profit). I would call this car my first real project. I'm almost positive I've turned 80% of the bolts at some point on the entire car. It was also my first boosted project.

I bought a brand new built engine from a person on here and it lasted 500miles before blowing up. After it blew up, I pieced together and got another engine professionally assembled and its still running today. While trying to sell the car to buy the MSM, a test driver wrecked it. Insurance obviously didn't think the car was worth the thousands I put into it and I was left to part out a lot of it. :facepalm:
Some of the mods from this car will transfer to the...MSM...finally...the topic at hand.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1385499526

The picture above is a few weeks after I bought it. I've installed BC Racing Coilovers and some knock off wheels I already had purchased for the last car.

The car came with an intake and exhaust as well as manual boost controller. This was my first MSM experience but I intended on having fun with this car.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1385499526

Lots of fun

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1385499526
This car was lacking...well...everything compared to my NA. It was slow (My NA was probably well above 200whp). The power did not come "on" the way it should. It seemed to spool quickly but it didn't actually go anywhere until some sort of magic "switch" was hit around 5000rpm. With the size of the turbo...I could only blame the ECU, my hazardous tuning skills were still better then what is the stock tune on this bastardized 2 year turbo miata experiment mazda decided to call "mazdaspeed"....but enough of this rant.

So begins my build thread for this car. I installed a roll bar shortly after buying the car(only picture I could find)
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1385499526
Shortly after that, I crossed my fingers and took it on a road 2000mile road trip to ocean city with a few friends:
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1385499526
The above is how the car currently sits. The car is sitting with the paintshop right now getting the bodywork fixed up as it has its fair share of bumps and scratches.

Over the winter, the following will be installed:
Begi S6 Downpipe/Manifold/GT3071r (recent pickup off m.net)
Megasquirt (from rev) & wideband
FM clutch
RC750s with Peak and Hold driver.
3.3 gearing (Miataroadster)
short throw shifter (Miataroadster)
Built short block
- I need input here, should I use the block and head from my old 97 or use the MSM head and the 97 block or take out the internals and swap them over?

That's all I have for now...I don't think I've ever really done much of a build thread even though I've been on this forum for years. But the story can start here and hopefully move forward.

*hold*

Nice intro, welcome to the site.

For the motor, you can use either bottom end .. they are both the same, other than a compression ratio difference which doesn't matter if you are going full forged. As for the heads, you should use the MSM head. It's the same as a 99-00 head IIRC and flows great.

I don't know how you didn't kill the guy who crashed your car on a test drive, what an idiot.

Sounds like you've got some solid plans for this car though, can't wait to see it come together.

That situation with the guy isn't done yet. I've let it go and decided to move forward but can't help but hope one day something he loves will be ripped away from him.

Thanks for the advice on the block. After performing leakdown test on the 97 engine I'll pull the MSM engine and start the swap process.

I thought there were difference in the Oil/Water lines between the MSM and other blocks for some reason....The S6 kit comes with lines that I'm sure aren't fabbed for the MSM block anyway so it shouldn't make much a difference.

You probably already know, but when the head is off it's a good idea to do a '94-'00 headgasket + coolant reroute.

very true...and I've been debating this myself on what option to go with on the coolant re-route.

My last build had one only I did not like how messy it was. I'm also still running the stock MSM rad for now.

This car will not be tracked for anything more then Auto-X. Is a re-route necessary with the newer style headgasket?

Nope. I'd only do it if the car saw lots of track time. Even the occasional track day you'll be ok. Just invest in a nicer radiator and FM spal fan setup.

I have built an MSM engine and a 99, so I can tell you the differences:

The MSM head is very similar to the 99-00, but it has the same coolant passage routing as the VVT head and uses the VVT head gasket. The intake cam is different too.

The MSM block is the same as the early NA 1800 block, the later NA 1800 no longer has the provisions for the oil feed on the side of the block. The MSM block also has the mains support brace like on the VVT block, and obviously has a different sump. The MSM block also uses the VVT oil pump.

Hope this helps!

Cheers

Props for a very useful post, Tim. :bigtu:

Thanks Tim!
If those are the only differences I don't see the point in swapping internals from my 97 block to the MSM block.

I've got a working BE Oil pump in the 97 block and will hopefully be able to simply bolt on the mains support brace if needed/possible.

Started cleaning/purging the garage last night in preparation for the tear down. I have WAY too much junk.

Excited to watch this build! Your part list looks like what I dreamed this car to be!

From memory you just need to make sure the mains support brace and sump stay together and you'll be right to just bolt it up.

Oh and if you use ARP mains studs they will hit the brace. :vash:

Keep us posted and take lots of pics!

Cheers

Thanks everyone for the help.... winter is fast approaching and we've recently gotten dumped with 30-40cm (~15") of snow along with well below freezing temps....picked up a propane garage heater so this build might actually go somewhere now.

Did a little progress but not much...

So I pulled the Miata in the garage for the LAST time as a stock car. Depending on how much I fuck up this build... it might never see the light of day again...so I took a pic...
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1387285794

My hotside new setup came in shortly there after!! WHO HOO!!! I'm a little scared going with Begi products from the trouble i've read about them on the forums and haven't heard much about the S6 kit...but for the price I got it for, I can't complain.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1387285794
Wastegate/GT3071r/Manifold/Downpipe/Oil&Water Lines (will need to be modified)

I've checked out my old engine from the 97. A leakdown test confirmed less than a 20% loss across all cylinders which I think is great for a self tuned engine running 20psi for almost 2 years. I patted myself on the back and moved on.

Since I'm re-using the MSM head and not the one on my 97 I took the head off to take a look at the pistons... other then a little charcoal they don't look bad.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1387285794
I may clean them up and re-ring them for good measure, but that's probably it.

Next step will be taking fenders/hood/bumper off of the MSM while I work on it to make things easier.

If you are pulling the motor apart and re-ringing, it would be a DAMN SHAME not to toss some fresh bearings and a set of el cheapo forged rods in there.

Engine was rebuilt a couple years with Belfab H-beam rods so I'll probably skip on getting another set.

Thought about bearings as well too....I'm NOT an engine builder or have I ever tried myself...is it simply a process of buying them and tossing them in??

Update...I caved a bought a propane heater for my garage.....I can now work in a T-shirt.
See below:
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1389200195
This thing can get my 15x25ft garage from -13f to 70-80f(-25c to 25c in Canadian) in about 30minutes so getting work done will happen.

First thing I did was strip the fenders/bumpers/lights off the car. as well and start to strip the engine bay of anything tying the engine down... got most of it done here.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1389200195

In my first thread, I stated my old block looked great and I would use that...not looking so bright anymore....when I pushed the piston #1 down I found scratches on the block. Looks like I'll be using the MSM block after all....
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1389200195
They aren't bad and didn't affect any running aspects of the old engine which is odd but I can definitely feel a set of ridges along my fingernail when feeling it so since I don't want to do this job again I don't think I'll use it.

Any insight on this?? Engine building itself is not my forte and will be sending it to a local shop.

Great idea on the fenders. I was wondering how I would be able to do all the needed work and not end up with scratches on my fenders, as I don't have any of those protection things.

that cylinder looks pretty bad in the picture, i doubt that would hone out but you can try. If you have an option, i'd definitely use the better looking of the two blocks.

On a BP i just pulled apart, this is probably the worst cylinder:

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1389240187

I think it'll hone out, but I have yet to do it.

Yup, keep the support & oil pan together. I had to cut about 2 threads off to get the main studs to clear. (note: if you do this don't let the stud get hot and screw up the temper/heat treating.)

Not much going on....but it's almost ready to come out...Engine crane all hooked up. This car has WAY more wiring and connections then my old 97...I can't wait to plug in the Megasquirt and take out all the extras...

ENGINE IS OUT...I work slow and that's big progress for me...
The only snare I ran into along the way was the fuel lines...
My old Miata didn't have any frustrating quick connects so I had to make my own tool for them.
I cut the end off of a pouring spout, made a slit and inserted it under the connector to pop it out...wasn't that bad. It was my proud moment of the weekend.

The connector
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1389625988

The "tool"
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1389625988

The tool in use
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1389625988

and tada! Engine is out
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1389625988


After I accomplished that task and went back to my old engine, which if your following this tale was decided that the block was too scratched up to use.
I pulled the rods/pistons out to be installed in the MSM engine. This is what I found...
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1389625988

More specifically...take a look at piston #4 and #2(but not as bad). The ones that scratched the block up.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1389625988

I'm not sure if this is apparent in the pictures but do you see the scratches between the rings of the piston itself?? Is this an issue?

Machine shop told me pistons was AOK to use..stripping MSM block to be built!

Not too much progress...started taking apart the MSM engine.
Interesting finds:
-Found a double sprung clutch disk inside the MSM pressure plate. Exedy stamped on the clutch disk. Is this stock?? I have a FM2 Pressure Plate but the disk is rather worn to reuse. I may throw this one in as it looks brand new. The throwout bearing also fell right out of the flywheel which was odd.

Pondering the coolant re-route at the moment...blocked the front of the msm head off and made a easily removable timing mark check from the old plate to use when needed.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1389892694

Realized the only 12point socket I have is a 1/2" for my old ARPs so picking up a 12mm 12pt socket today to be able to yank the head off completely.

Dropped this off at machine shop this morning along with the Pistons and Rods. They are measuring and getting to me to order Bearings and a pistons ring set.
Will PM a sponsor to order ACL Bearing set and Weisco Rings once complete.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1390245782

Since I had nothing to do for the rest of the weekend I started cleaning up engine bay. The Left side of bay is pretty messy from the solenoids..I was able to build a bracket and hide them just outside of way as well as relocate harness on the other side of the IC piping.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1390245782
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1390245782

Nice.

Should be a fun car! I want to drive a 3071R Miata

Puttered around in the garage last night.
Finished the mini-tuck on the right side:
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1390595773

Then I got really bored and hacked up my valve cover. I don't plan on running front covers and and hope this works out ok...Only thing left now is getting some -AN fittings welded in place of the breather ports...then strip and powdercoat if there is time...
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1390595773
...flamesuit...on.

I took the flapper out and blocked the hole in the intake manifold as well. Tapped the hole and screwed a bolt in with some sealant. (Sorry no picture)

I plan on building plates for the EGR holes and then take the grinder to any unused bumps and imperfections in the cast that aren't needed....

All for now... Machine shop called and said they are starting with my block so hopefully engine assembly will begin next week.

No huge updates other then my MEGASQUIRT is in and Rev is the man.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1391457331

Getting the old ECU out turned out to be more of a pain then I figured...mounting this one nicely may be a challenge as well...

What do the NB2 people do??

reused the lower bracket from my stock ECU and redrilled it for the MS bolts. ECU is mounted now in the same general area.

While waiting for my block at the shop I installed 74lb Dual Supertech Valve springs in the head.
Old vs New
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1392407793

Can't see the springs here...but work in progress
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1392407793

Since the intake manifold was off...I decided to make my oil changes a little easier by removing some of the cast in brackets on the intake manifold and block off the EGR while I was in there.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1392407793

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1392407793

ALSO, Got the short block back from the shop. It's now bored out and I got them to install ACL race bearings (STD) and New weisco rings before installing the Pistons/Rods.

Brought it home and threw that back covers on along with the BE oil pump. After installing Oil Pump, I tapped an m6x1.0 for the bolt for the Crank Sensor. Threw the Head studs on and called it a night.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1392407793

DoUbLe PoSt

Been a while since I updated... so here we go.
Threw the head on and installed the reroute manifold (M-tuned) as well:
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1393868943

Ordered some DW1000s and a DW300 fuel pump...waiting on them to arrive.

I was unaware but since I'm running the BegiS6 hot side. I needed to get their Water By Pass system as well. Currently waiting on a shipping notification for that along with other fittings for the block as well as return plate.

In the meantime worked on running oil/water lines (went to local shop to have steel lines made)
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1393868943

Here is how everything is currently sitting, intake manifold is hanging there right now
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1393868943

Pretty damn awesome man. I love the way a clean BP with a turbo looks sitting on the engine stand. yum.

A little...well...a lot more progress...
Had some more parts some in from Begi and Fab9 so I was able to finish my Oil/water lines and finally install the engine.

A little bit of reflection time because pictures are easier to upload then typing...

From this:
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1395246412
to this:
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1395246412

While the engine was out...I tried to get rid of some wiring...The stock harness in the MSM (or probably any NB miata) is BRUTAL...It comes out behind the intake manifold, runs all the way up the the front of the engine beside the timing belt and then proceeds to be split up going backwards towards all of the sensors...I wasn't liking this at all.

When the engine was out, I moved the onboard connectors to the rear of the intake manifold instead. Since the timing belt is open, having the least amount of wiring around that area is best...things got a little out of hand from there on...
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1395246412

This manual is approx 2 billion pages...I couldn't find an actual color codes ECU wiring diagram anywhere in the whole thing!!!!
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1395246412

The second picture in this thread is how it looks now. The only wiring left is the Powersteering/AC/Crank Sensor that needs to be run to the other side of the car. I'm planning on going around the front behind the crash bar for these.

Then it's plumbing vacuum and reroute coolant lines and it's start time!

Solid progress! Shoot me a note if you need help with the wiring. I have most of the pin-outs.

You really suck at photobucket.

Click the IMG code, it'll flash "copied". Then come here and press CTRL-V, and we'll get large images like what I fixed in your last post.

Good progress and gorgeous manifold.

Thanks Curly! I've been choosing the thumbnails so things don't take forever to load...but I guess nobody has anything other then highspeed anymore...

Finished up the wiring and mounted ECU....

Currently waiting on a 1-piece hot side intercooler pipe from FM and hoping I can make it work with the BEGI low mount setup I'm running along with the Corksport intercooler. It has all the bends needed, I just might have to cut/lengthen a couple things in it.

My First Start before any tuning...plugged ECU in and turned the key...(tuned for stock injectors). Pardon the hick speaking...the car STARTS
http://s72.photobucket.com/user/Prel...vnx8r.mp4.html

after messing around with the ReqFuel (now at 2.8 and Dead Time for the DW1000s at 1.62) ...I realized I have no sweet clue how to use TunerStudio as it is nothing like AEMpro was...but I'll get used to it, just have to find out where everything is located...this is my current idle...still does not like adjusting to anything when I press the gas...but once I figure out where the fuel map is...i'll have some fun there...it's close.
http://s72.photobucket.com/user/Prel...7aa71.mp4.html

Here are pics of it now (well...a couple days ago)
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1395755401




....and yes I fail at uploading videos through photobucket

fastened down the longest turbo coolant line in the world last night so it looks a little better.....also had a little fun with the Power Steering.... Tapped another hole in the pump and rotated the PS nozzle up. I took an old hollow Catch can I bought on here a while back and connected it to use as a PS reservoir.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1395834004

See the "wiring all.pdf" file here: https://drive.google.com/folderview?...zA&usp=sharing
(courtesy of mazda-speed.com).

Thank you Sir!

Starting to look like more of a car now...got the bumpers and everything on there
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1396281758

and here is another....I actually really like this shot seeing the rollbar through the light....even through the assend is about 2ft off the ground...lol
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1396281758

Started driving around last weekend with the car and doing tuning...Can't get VEAL to work for some reason so everything is manual....starting to bring it into boost....works quite well is an understatement.

Got the intake completed and powdercoated
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1397059248

Getting the paint and body work done now and should be painted by end of today. Just getting the front clip re-painted factory color to fix all the dings:
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1397059248


Car should be done there today and I can install a few hoses and drive it to a car show for tomorrow...timeline is CLOSE

Looking good man!

Alex, which hood strut kit do you have?

I'm thinking about getting a set, but I'm not sure yet. I feel like I spend more time bent over the front fenders than I do over the front of the car. Yes that sounds sexual. I just showed my g/f the penis on your intake. She likes it.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1397059248

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FIXED!

The hood dampers are from an RX7...I drilled the fenders in the proper position to fit them, super easy.
Tein Hood Damper - Mazda RX7 93-96
That being said...they are VERY stiff...and not cheap. I had them kicking around the shop so I didn't want to waste them.

I'd go with the ones from FM(Rspeed) if I did it all over again even though they may not be as "pretty":
Flyin' Miata 1 800 FLY MX5s

Embrace it

Not too much to update other then I'm having issues with Megasquirt at the moment...everything on it is extreemly slow and the VEAL won't work (assuming because of this slowness)...Watching the gauges is like streaming porn through a 56k connection.

I hook up a friend's laptop and after he loaded everything its working perfectly with all the same cables...very odd...I tried 3 of my laptops and no dice...

That being said I've put a few hundred miles on the car which resulted in some lines melting...seeing as the boost lines are so close to the turbo area, I redid them using stainless instead.....
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1398434422

Threw car in a couple shows as well...just for fun
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1398434422
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1398434422
IG fuzzyness awfulness
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1398434422

Also realized my boost gauge is complete junk (or not hooked up properly)
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1398434422
EDIT...yes I know it states no oil pressure...I have NA oil pressure sensor installed...when there is actually zero OP...the gauge is at halfway mark....need to install NA gauge in near future so it works properly.

Thats all for now.

I don't know if it is a short in the line or the sending unit is going bad, but every couple of weeks the gauge would zero out where ever you were at. So if you're boosting at 10 and it reset, it would read from there. A quick restart of the car zeroed it out again. I had it narrowed down to either a loose power connection inside the gauge its self (one time it just quit working until I tapped it a couple of times) or a bad connection at its 12v source. I think the PO was a vamp clamp lover. It was so infrequent that I said forget it and just drove it like it was.

Yep, doesn't go above 30psi, complete junk. :party:

Vamp clamps everywhere!!
I've soldered a few camp clamp connections already...still a TON more. Those things are horrible and I'd like to shoot every installer who ever used them.

Been driving this daily now and recently switched out the oil and running T6.

Surprisingly...this is my 1st build that nothing disastrous has happened...no strange oil leaks or wiring issues or anything like that...almost freaky.

Only issues I'm having now is with Megasquirt. To put it nicely...its seems to have a mind of its own and I've had several setup issues among which:
-Firmware failed and needed to be reloaded for what seemed to no reason (had to limp car home on stock ECU)
-VEAL would not work and everything was generally "laggy". After a few emails back and for with Rev, I needed to revert back to an old version to TunerStudio for it to work properly...I am not allowed to receive updates anymore.
-I still cannot get VEAL in MegalogViewer to work properly...this might be a version issue as well, I haven't looked at it.
-Idle is very temperamental...car dies at Idle whenever there is a quick voltage drop(IE. Cooling fans kick on, lower windows, cough, sneeze). This may be a user error as i'm still familiarizing myself with the program and tuning in general....Can't find IAC compensation for voltage or Fans anywhere....also have a bunch of Idle settings where the values are off the chart...I'll compare my values with a few other maps and hopefully I'll find the important differences.

On a plus side...at cruise and on throttle the car works very well for 9psi....will be activating starting to play with boost solenoid shortly once I feel more comfortable :)


*crossing fingers*

What version of MS2E do you have? And what were his words about updating tunerstudio. I've come across a few situations where my VEAL won't adjust the Fuel table either.

And I also have similar issues with voltage drops killing the car while coming to stops and random times in parking lots.

MS2e Firmware 3.3.0i

Tunerstudio version 2.0.8 (link below)
http://tunerstudio.com/downloads2/Tu...tup_v2.0.8.exe

His instructions were very simple. "Download and install" and not to update to newer version when prompted.

I'm having same issues with alternator....will unbolt it and bench test it shortly Voltage is dropping from 14.3v when I first start car to as low as 12.5 if all lights are on.

So, did you ever resolve this? Does sound like a fairly serious issue, why wouldn't updated firmware be a good idea?

:eek:

update for Curly & Turbofan:

With my older firmware and older version of Tunerstudio...everything is working the way it should.

Once I get newer firmware then I can use the tunerstudio version to match i'm sure. I drove the car all summer and took it on multiple road trips without any ECU issues other then my piss poor tuning capabilities and no tuner around here will touch MS with a 10 foot pole.



I did have a rod bearing go on me...but that's a completely different issue as the engine was assembled slightly too tight. Changed them and was good the following week (it sucked)

Over the fall I had some engine issues...just before a big trip planned I heard a knocking in the engine...it was slight and only appeared at cruising speed between 3-4k and during idle revs at the moment before decel. Valve train sounded good so I assumed the worst.

Jacked the car up/tore the subframe off and took out oil pan to examine clearances.

The ACL race bearings installed from factory were .025" over and I believe that was slightly too tight as cylinder #3 rod bearing was showing copper flaking.

Everything looked smooth otherwise so I put in STD ACL race bearings as replacement and immediately took it on a 2000mile journey the following week. Somehow made it home and winter was up and coming shortly afterwards so it sat in a storage unit until recently...

Where did you get the blue alternator belt?