Ted75zcar's questionable logic - the '91 compound turbo-super
 

So, I think I would like a single consolidated spot to record various random aspects of my project. I have been working on this for several years now. There are bits and piece scattered throughout the forumverse.

At a high level, the car that will hopefully be back on the road this summer is a '91 Mariner with a 1.8 swap, compounded turbo-super. I am using a NA block, but it does not have the second oil feed, not sure what year beyond that. I am also using a VVT head and VICs intake. Guts are all good stuff, wiseco 8.5's, Carrillo super-A, ST heavy doubles with 1mm OS In/Ex (Inconel Ex.). FI - Garrett GTX2867R, Begi mani and long tube divorced, MP62. Drive-train - FM2 clutch, 6-speed, 4.1 LSD, '94 subframes. Stops - FM BBK (4-wheel). Suspension - FM2.5. Grips - Dunlop Direzza DZ101 on Konig Helium, 205/50/R15 EM - MS3PRO

This car has to date been exclusively street driven, I may at some point take it out for track days, but it will never be a tracked or raced car.

I am in the process of building the second version based on the parts above. The first version served as a proof of concept. It was based on a stock bottom end 1.6 with a fair amount of head work. FI started as a GTX2867R - OA2076, but the turbo had some significant issues and was swapped out for a 48trim GT2871 churbo. EM - MS2PNP. I drove this setup for about 6 months and it was a blast. I also discovered several design opportunities, and quickly ran out of rod. Here is a VD plot of the 1.6 version

http://i66.tinypic.com/5lz6za.jpg

some more random pics from the 1.6 build

air diagram
http://i66.tinypic.com/et7dc1.jpg

alternator bracket
http://i67.tinypic.com/k39lar.jpg

car front view
http://i68.tinypic.com/10s5cb8.jpg

engine overview
http://i63.tinypic.com/akv5a0.jpg

Intake
http://i68.tinypic.com/rms0vk.jpg

Mounted Alternator
http://i68.tinypic.com/143nwbc.jpg

Mule mount Front
http://i64.tinypic.com/axhd9j.jpg

Mule mount Rear
http://i64.tinypic.com/33dgxhf.jpg

Oil cooler
http://i65.tinypic.com/bbsr4.jpg

more random pics from the 1.6 build

oil filter
http://i67.tinypic.com/qpp2dj.jpg

SC bottom
http://i66.tinypic.com/2d8l4ye.jpg

SC brackets
http://i68.tinypic.com/2h4l5lj.jpg

sc manifold
http://i67.tinypic.com/2lo2i4z.jpg

SC mount
http://i64.tinypic.com/j5gis4.jpg[/QUOTE]

I think that this is the last pic taken of the 1.6 setup prior to dismantle

http://i67.tinypic.com/2nslv84.jpg

So far this winter I have moved the evap canister to the driver side rear wheel well, sorry for the rotated picture, will need to learn how to get it to not do that ...

http://i66.tinypic.com/2ed8p6g.jpg

re-factored the fuel system component locations

http://i63.tinypic.com/egwcol.jpg

added 27 channels of CAN based acquisition (tinyIOx) - rotated again, WTF, tinypic can SMD

http://i67.tinypic.com/24zamwo.jpg

and am going through the head, figured the rotation thing out

http://i68.tinypic.com/13zboys.jpg

Block is at the builder now, ton of stuff to do before getting it back on the road.

Here are a couple of fun-ish visuals from an excel tool I created to calculate seat dimentions for my 5 angle cut. The first image is at 0 lift, the second at 0.025

the second two show the stock valve vs the OS valve on the 5 angle at 0" and 0.025" lift

I am a nerd

http://i63.tinypic.com/12504ec.jpg

http://i67.tinypic.com/qowrab.jpg

http://i67.tinypic.com/wasfiu.jpg

http://i67.tinypic.com/5bqsyp.jpg

and here is some eye candy from a MATLAB script I wrote to characterize the MP62. The MP62 compressor map doesn't extend far enough into the operating regions I am concerned about, and some of the information there is hard to extract (like VE).

http://i67.tinypic.com/2929x68.jpg

http://i63.tinypic.com/34no8lz.jpg

Forgot how much of a PITA it is to cut these seats by hand. 1 down, 15 to go ... pretty darn happy with the lap line results though

http://i67.tinypic.com/jqqs1c.jpg

This is hilariously complex and very cool.

complex? Psshhhh naw....

thanks!

and if somebody fixed my image rotation up there for me, you the boss

What are you doing with the 1.6 head???

Fun. Fun. Fun. Enjoying this thread.

Sub'd, will be watching this one for sure! I like the valve pics showing lift with the angled valve job, pretty cool!

Looks good! Will v2 still use a turbo blowing into a supercharger?

undecided

yep. It worked out really well for me, and I think I can live with the maximum boost limitation. Plus, I will be able to leverage the V1 charge piping, which is big. I am switching from a twinscrew to a roots, I think the roots is actually a better option.

here are some pics of the data acquisition boxes. I used to design sensor technologies and sensor systems, so I am an instrumentation nut.

Each of the output connectors shown in the pic above contain 2 ADC channels, a sensor ground, and an ADC referenced 5V source for ratiometric correction. The sense resistors for resistive sensor technologies are built into the sensor side pigtail of the sensors harness. This allows me to swap/move channels to any of the connectors at will. The larger connector on the box is some ebay military knock-off.

http://i63.tinypic.com/dbfqr.jpg

http://i63.tinypic.com/2znx3cg.jpg

http://i67.tinypic.com/148kf92.jpg

http://i66.tinypic.com/s42vzp.jpg

http://i68.tinypic.com/jt82ac.jpg

http://i64.tinypic.com/2rnelxx.jpg

http://i65.tinypic.com/15dvoys.jpg

http://i65.tinypic.com/e3b6v.jpg

What are you using the DC-DC's for?

two things. The TinyIOx requires a regulated 5V source, and the box not only measures the sensor output, it also powers the sensor. There are actually 2 versions of the box. A 9 channel, and an 18 channel. Once we start powering 18 arbitrary sensors, the power requirements go up.

Time for a weekend update, left off with DAQ stuff, so might as well start there ...

Cobbled a manifold together that would allow me to characterize cheap ebay pressure traducers and Chinese MAP sensors against a high quality calibrated reference sensor. The Arduino samples the voltage from any of the connected sensors along with the ref sensor and provides the data via serial stream. I import the data into a spreadsheet program that gives me the slope and offset. I had originally coded it to generate inc files, but the sensors are actually really linear, so a simple slope/offset conversion should be good enough. The overall objective is to be able to accurately characterize pressure drops across all things (heat exchanges, charge piping, air filter, throttle body(s), ...). As mentioned, these sensors are super linear, I suspect they incorporate some sort of 2 element Wheatstone bridge or something. The sensors do have significant offset error, so this was a good time investment IMO.

here are some pics ...

http://i68.tinypic.com/ta33nn.jpg
http://i64.tinypic.com/21m6ec0.jpg
http://i64.tinypic.com/2dj7z20.jpg

Also made some progress on the valve seats. All of the exhaust valve seats are cut. I will say this ...

This is the last effin time I will be cutting valve seats by hand, it effin sux monkey n\/ts. It takes me something like 1 to 1.5 hours to cut each seat. My builder will charge $25 per seat on his Sunnen. Granted, it is a standard 3-angle, but the extra angles get me what, 0.5% or worse improvement? F that. He will do a whole head for $320, which includes strip, seat cut, valve replace/clean, head clean, buzz, and reassemble. I am considering having him do the intake side, but some recent rod-related complications may force me to be a little more budge aware. If you missed it ... F-this seat cutting BS.

Now for some pics

http://i66.tinypic.com/2a6v809.jpg

http://i67.tinypic.com/dngho5.jpg

http://i66.tinypic.com/2jaiv79.jpg

Picked up an OEM NB2 alternator, came in with bunk bearings, so decided to rebuild. The Teflon coated bearing in the rear is a biznatch to source, so here:

Welcome to HodgePodgeia!


2 x B10-50D 2RS with teflon rings (B10-50D w/rings) = $9.52

2 x 6303 2RS (6303) = $6.76

These guys have Chinese versions, ship super fast, and at a killer price. They even refunded a couple bucks for the shipping.

Anyway, spent too much time tearing the thing apart, sourcing the bearings, masking and painting and reassembling. Then went to install the pulley, and my mind must have been in a bad spot because I lost patience with a cross thread and fubar-d the shaft threads. Love it when life provides me repeated opportunities to pause. Replacement scuzzy OEM from ebay ordered, yeah!

Couple notes on the selection of the NB2 alternator.

The NB2 is an externally regulated 80A, as we all know. I know the trend around here is to swap in the internally regulated versions, 'cause, easy button. On the 1.6 setup, I ran both a stock internally regulated, and an aftermarket high-amp internally regulated. I was always seeing a falling voltage when the car reaches temperature. I am speculating that what-ever reference these alternators is using to regulate against has a pretty crappy temperature coefficient. Since my alternator is located on the hot-side, I am much more prone to issues. If I go to the NB style external regulation, I will be able to regulate from in the cabin, where the temperature will be less of an issue. I will be using the Westfield board with my MS3PRO module, so the the HW based alternator control circuitry is already there. In an effort to reduce the temperature dependence, I heat shielded the alternator, ran the radiator fan constantly (flowing air past the alt), and installed big MFing wire from the alt back to the junction box. These all provided some improvement, but didn't achieve my goals.

http://i67.tinypic.com/15s0nxg.jpg

until next time ...

been a while, progress has been made. Might as well get some of it documented.

SC bracket and the beginnings of the outlet manifold are in progress. This bracket aligns the SC pulley face to be parallel with the crank pulley face, it is adjustable front to back. One of the issues with the last system that I wanted to improve was the install/removal process. I am trying to make this as easy to get in and out as possible. I am using a Honda knock-off with a BP4W flange. It may not be the best performance option, but I need the space. The turbo is back from getting balanced at G-pop. This is essentially a new GTX2867R (Gen 1) with a 0.86 A/R turbine housing. Got the 3.307 R&P back from MFactory, they performed a surface treatment on it. Hopefully they work! Picked up another diff to install them. This way if they bomb out I can throw the 4.10 back in there. Nabbed an NB1 6-speed.

Block is back from the engine builder:
Wiseco, Manley H, ARB mains King bearings, BE street strip with 2 shims
Had to go with the Manley instead of the Carrillo because everybody's favorite vendor around here did a FABulous job of not ordering the correct replacement rod that I specified. Of course I failed to check what was sent and didn't realize it until 2 years later when I went to get the engine put together, so probably my fault. As expected, email is launched into the order issue black hole of nothingness over there.

http://i66.tinypic.com/14tsqo7.jpg

http://i67.tinypic.com/2di3s42.jpg

http://i67.tinypic.com/10hmv08.jpg

http://i68.tinypic.com/2i6c2o6.jpg

http://i64.tinypic.com/15gw7dx.jpg

http://i64.tinypic.com/e02wec.jpg

http://i68.tinypic.com/2diok69.jpg

http://i63.tinypic.com/ws1ceh.jpg

Any reason you went from the AO2076 to MP45? I read through this and didn't see any mention.

I am actually moving to the MP62. It is more appropriately sized for the 1.8, where the OA2076 is a good size for the 1.6. I have an unused OA3150, but it is more difficult from a packaging perspective. Additionally, my configuration acts as both a compound and a twin, and I believe the roots is a better option while in twin mode. The twinscrew is probably better in compound. In twin, the twinscrew continues to add heat due to internal compression, where the roots should add less heat when in this mode. The pressure ratio across the SC when in twin-charge will be at or near 1. After I am on the road, I may fabricate a solution using the 3150, just to see how it compares. The internal compression on the 3150 is only 1.4, so the incremental temperature add may not be significant.

knowing that they are linear, could you not adjust the offset in your standalone so that they are 0 at atmospheric pressure and carry on?
I was considering these sensors for things like fuel and coolant pressure (I think that they are a liquid sensor, yeah?)

I will be using the sensors to measure fractions (hopefully) of a psi drop across various flow channels. The sensors are thankfully linear, which means I don't need LUTs, but the scaling between them are not exactly the same. I will be able to use the control system and peripheral interfaces to apply a linear correction based on slope and offset. The full scale response of these sensors is not controlled enough to simply leverage the published sensitivities and measure pressure differentials at less than say 10kpa with a 100kpa bias.

yes, they are good for air/gas/oil/water. If you are interested in a resolution/accuracy of say 1psi, you should be fine. You can probably even get away with a hard-coded offset correction, as opposed to a re-cal for offset at turn-on if you want.

you mind sharing your source? im sure there are some cheap sensors out there that aren't as good as what you have.

For my needs, a hard offset with linear scaling is fine. Fuel correction based on pressure (if your pump starts to fail or cant keep up for some reason) and general monitoring of water/airbox pressures.

I didn't qualify these at all, really just picked these guys because they have several different sensors.

http://stores.ebay.com/Industrial-st...sub=2911276017

Mostly finished with the Inlet and outlet manifolds. This is a major milestone, so figured I would post some pics.

Little details left:
Need to plumb the "Twin Valve" (name I am calling it) into the outlet manifold.
Pressure sensor bung on the inlet manifold
Weld a couple of lock-down mounts to the steel brackets
Mount for the Twin Valve control solenoid
fabricate a belt drive solution for the MP62 internal bypass

Now some pics ...

Edit: Tiny-pick bomb

So it seems Mazda might be interested in this as well. Maybe not such a terrible idea.

Mazda Patent Application Shows Wild Engine With Twin Turbos and Electric Supercharger

Ted75, is an ARTIST!

Thanks dude!

Totally awesome!

Shoshoni Wy

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...fb4c2bb7e3.jpg

Been traveling quite a bit, but got a little time today. Fanned up a combine IM support brace/LSx coil bracket. I need to figure out what the wire solution is for VVT. Sadfab looks like they have something, but I will need longer wires. I know I can get Magnecore to make a set, but will they know what boots to use? More reading is in order.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...9899c72b19.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...176ce21c89.jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...6e9c5c4e0e.jpg

Finished off the belt tensioner, which was more work than I anticipated. Also made it through a few of the details with the supercharger stuffs. The SC is essentially done now. Time to move on to the IM, ignition, and fuel stuff. Then to the hot-side.

still hoping somebody can chime in with some suggestions for the spark plug wires. I see Emilio hogged the channel on the VC out for one of his cars. That might be the way I go. I may also contact Sadfab to see if they can do something custom for me.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...d283b083ef.jpg

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...fc3eadd51c.jpg

DROOL! Hey Ted, will you be home tomorrow? A few of us will be going for a drive, I'd like to stop by, and see this thing up close and personal!

What time? I am heading the High Plains for the SCCA stuff they have going on. I suspect we will be back mid-afternoon.

Sounds good, I'll call ya around 1 pm or so.

Never worked right. Messed with air flow through the valve cover. Every engine we ever ran with that cover had blowby. Went back to a stock valve cover and blow by issues went away. Until TSE finishes their NB2 COP bracket, LSX or OEM coils are the way to go.

thanks a bunch for the info on the VC.

I am running 510Cs (LSx).

Why is it that Begi decided to use M10 studs for the turbo as opposed to M8? The housing casting interfered with a standard M10 flange nut, so ...

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...308e4690e6.jpg

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...c94ae04e22.jpg
That makes me a sad panda.

lucky for me the Alpha Tig with a 5L cup is bomber even when my skills are not.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...028da79176.jpg

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...7e664c2c35.jpg

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...2b983ba03f.jpg

getting closer

​​​​​​​https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...30e6fc32a3.jpg

Oh, and I will be using Stage 8's, just waiting for.them to get here.

Updated my electronic throttle body controller based on some suggestions from Oreo. Thanks Oreo!

Had a little car time today, made a -12AN turbo drain extension adapter.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...04fecafd66.jpg

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...902249e359.jpg

Got some time on the car today. Welded bungs into the VC for the oil pressure regulator and a crankcase pressure sensor. Mocked up the oil supply path. I source from the VVT solenoid housing through a restrictor, a filter, and then to the regulator, which shunts through the VC into the head.

Also fabbed up a throttle cable bracket and mocked the fuel rail lines to see what fittings I need to order there.

random tomato-porn pic, the current 2017 Colorado record. Hope it holds on through the rest of the season.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...a9d6766889.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...563fa189ce.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...375eb88dde.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...99b27e5db9.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...67ce14f1e4.jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...0a7bee39d3.jpg

Dude! That engine!!!

And if you give me that tomato, I'll make salsa with it!

yeah, it is quite the mongrel.

that Mater is already in the pot, but assuming the weather holds, there will be more!

Car still running well?

Like a peach! On the second to last Wednesday drive, through Squaw pass, I was in the heels of a AP1 STOOK, all night!

More progress...

fabbed the lower alternator mount, some misc turbo bits

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...1310ee9164.jpg

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...dfc618ef8a.jpg

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...7ccffe4a00.jpg

So, as hard as it is for me to abide by the "ain't broke, don't fix it rule"... I decided that the turnbuckle solution form the 1.6 setup worked well enough to reuse instead of making a new bracket to mount the stock alternator upper bracket.

cranked everything tight and it is true and solid.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...1fadc9ab5c.jpg

When are you planning to install it back?

The 1.6? I'm not, just the alternator bracket. I was going to make a new one, but the turnbuckle works well.

I am starting to think about what is next, and the 1.6 in a different shell is appealing. It was wicked quick when I took it apart, and with rods I think it would embarrass all but the top tier 1.8s. The autorotor can handle higher PRs than the MP62 I am using for this build.

Instal the engine back in the car! :rofl: