On breaking stupid traffic laws
 

.. such as not stopping at 4way stop signs when you can see a half-mile in all directions and there are no other vehicles...

http://ericpetersautos.com/2012/03/20/breakin-the-law/

The traffic laws must be strictly and completely obeyed, without interpretation or the use of individual judgement. If they are not, then society as a whole will be immediately and totally destroyed.

[/sheep]

I doubt you'll find any individual who disagrees with the assertion that traffic laws can, at times, be utter BS are are best subject to interpretation based on circumstances.

Collectively, we as a society have not been successful at implementing such a concept in practice.

Reminds me of the demotivational poster to the effect that "None of us is as dumb as all of us."

I heard these terms distinguishing people or societies as "Rule Realists" vs. "Rule Formalists".

There are (relatively) good and bad examples of each.

"Rule Formalists" are exemplified by Germans and Americans (follow the law to the letter). When it comes to traffic laws, the big difference is that Germany has much better written traffic laws, and require the masses to pass much more stringent traffic laws. The system works very well. The USA in contrast, appears to dumb down its laws and thus criminalizes safe, competent drivers.

"Rule Fealists" are exemplified by Egypt and Brazil. e.g. "That stop sign is a suggestion". But there's a stark difference between them as well. Brazilian drivers seem to be much more competent and respect traffic flow (seems part of the driving culture), whereas driving in Egypt is very chaotic, slow, frustrating and dangerous.

This book describes the transition of America from Rule Realism to Rule Formalism.
It has caused a loss of freedom:

The Death of Common Sense: How Law Is Suffocating America

Don't get me started on stupid laws.
Or stupid drivers that follow said stupid laws regardless of circumstance.

OMG my blood pressure went up just by thinking about it.

There is a 1983 book by Harold Berman, who taught history at Harvard, called Law and Revolution: The Origins of the Western Legal Tradition.


The result is "Tyranny by Bureaucracy". Bureaucratic agencies are formed to "solve" some "problem", and said bureaucrats then come up with new rules (which are enforced just like laws), to expand their fiefdoms. Rules which if enforced to the letter, can make your life a living hell. Think TSA, EPA.

You are guilty until proven innocent, at your expense.
This IRS, kangaroo traffic courts.

This form of tyranny is what affects the common person the most. All the stupid little rules and regulations wrt driving, opening a business, etc etc.

This, in my experience, is true.

I also found, rather interestingly, that Germans as a whole tend to take the traffic laws (including the pedestrian traffic laws) rather seriously. Whether this is reflective on the quality of the laws or the mostly-true stereotype of Germans as being rather serious folk in general is debatable.

When last I was in Bremen, for instance, one thing which I never, EVER saw was a pedestrian crossing the street against a red light. It's just not part of their mindset. "How could I possibly cross? The light is red. One cannot cross when the light is red."

Contrast this to any American (or French, or Canadian, or Italian, etc) city with a large pedestrian population.


Also, please stop posting links to books / articles that you know damn well none of us are going to buy / read. It degrades the character of the forum and cheapens the conversation. :D

I provide them for anyone who wants to dig further.

Traffic laws and cops job descriptions in America are made exclusively for making money for the department/state, not to actually make our roads safer. IMHO

this, 2 years ago when i was in high school(yes im young) one of the cops would sit just out of the parking lot on a motorcycle and just hand out tickets to everyone that passed him, seat belts, rolling stops, lights out, etc.

i just got a parking ticket. most places allow you to contest it easily through mail; not in arlington. first i had to go online and request and affidavit. waited about 5 days for it to show up. then i had to fill out the affidavit to request a court date.

On the paperwork they warn about the court fee of an extra $61 if you lose your case and has a chart of all the typical offenses and the total that you will pay. In my case it wll be $101 if I lose. They spend the rest of the document talking about how your court date will be scheduled at 9am but hundreds of cases will be called in that day and you may have to be there all day.

basically they do everything they can to presuade you to just pay.

after another 5 days or so I finally got a my court date scheduled which is set in July, 5 months out...the packet came with my fluff about how much money and time you will waste if you lose.

so rediculous.


I've had at least 10 or so tickets dropped without any issue when i lived in richmond, some by mail some in person, but it was never a big deal. even in DC i was able to submit a photo of the meter i got a ticket at showing I was outside the time peroid and it was simply dropped without a visit to court.

lame lame lame.

I think the single greatest exchange I ever had with a cop was when caught speeding while getting on the freeway in front of several 18-wheelers. Lawman asked if I saw him, I assure him that I did, and I confirmed that I thought it was safer than stopping on the ramp. I asked him "either I was going to stop on the ramp and get a ticket for impeding traffic or a ticket for speeding, the speeding ticket at 7mph seemed like a safer option." He agreed that I was getting a ticket either way and I made the right decision...which cost me $350.

I've seen arguments that the mass psychology of the Germans evolved into this due to the history of the Prussian and German "Cameralists" and the invention of the Prussian educational system aka today's government indoctrinatrion, er, public schools.

Prussia (which is roughly Germany today), invented public schooling as a means of indoctrinating the youth to have faith in their rulers, such as to go to war when told.

The "Cameralists" were gov't employed "intellectuals" who promoted (propagandized) the ideas of Statism and central control. Naturally they promoted that which benefited the ruling class.

I've seen arguments that the above evolution of said mass psychology of the Germans was the reason that extreme Statism took root in the 1910s and took its most famous form, the "N" word.

Interestingly the philosophy of Statism itself and the roots I mention above, aren't mentioned in the Wikipedia history of the "N party". It doesn't go back far enough.

A result of the system and its incentives.

He has an incentive to give you the ticket (unspoken quotas), instead of an incentive to do "what's right".

Or, in his mind, giving you the ticket is "the right thing", because cop candidates are screened to think that way.

How else are they going to fund thermal imaging cameras and tanks for serving and protecting?

This ticket really rubbed me the wrong way. Before this, I questioned the motives of police but still believed the provided a service worthy of the taxes procured on their behalf. After this event I have little to no respect for much of any police officer who issues a ticket.

I should note that a couple day ago at lunch I was nearly hit by a cop cruising in multiple lanes while texting.

yesterday i passed a cop, everyone else tailed him.


i felt alive.

I had this same epiphany many years ago. Before that, I was really puzzled when a friend said "I hate cops, they have too much power". That particular rabbit hole is one of many that lead to Wonderland.

whoah, we got a badass over here

I refined my position, for the most part, to "FTC." That's more specific to traffic cops than police in general.

Sport the T-Shirt

Stupid traffic laws are a narcotics cop's best friend.

I have an interesting story related to this topic:

April 30, 2011(last day of the month), I was a delivery driver for a sandwich shop. It was just past noon, and traffic was really bad in College Station, TX. I was making an unprotected left hand turn back into the store. I noticed the police officer in my rear view, but didn't think anything of it because I was clearly obeying the law(using my turn signal and what not).

Traffic headed the opposite direction was coming to a stop because of the traffic light 100 feet behind me. It is common practice for drivers in oncoming traffic to stop well before the person in front of them and allow someone to execute a left turn. Well this jack ass in a big truck came to a stop in the middle lane blocking the entrance to my store. However, the drivers behind him were giving me plenty of space to complete the turn and even waving me on. I executed the turn, proceeded to park in the parking lot and get out of my car when the cop blocks me in, jumps out of his car with his hand on his gun and screams at me to get back in the vehicle. I obey, and he approaches keeping his hand on his gun as if I am a wanted felon.

He then gives me two tickets. One for "going the wrong way on a two way street", and another one for a "license plate cover obscuring my license plate". He proceeded to explain to me how poor the choices I made that day were and blah blah blah. I pled not guilty to both counts. Showed up in court representing myself. I was very prepared and went through an entire trial by jury including cross examining the officer and catching him contradicting himself and not remembering the position of cars etc., and I was able to capitalize on that during my closing argument.

I was found not guilty on the count of driving the wrong way on a two way street, but I was found guilty for the license plate cover obscuring my license plate (I had a border around it). And I ended up having to pay $300 for that ----...

Anyways, last day of the month a**holes, unspoken quotas, egotistic cops = all true

I drive in Egypt, Its fun if you don't care about your car. At the sametime, there is certainly some merit in having "smarter" laws, especially in reference to stop lights/signs and speed limits. Then again, I see some roads around here and I wonder who the F designed this? for example 540 loop around Raleigh...

There is one area where the highway goes from 5 lanes to 3 lanes. It also happens to be on the exit where the largest amount of people merge to go home at rush hour...WHy? For no ------- reason really, it makes no sense.

For the record I was a military cop. Did 6yrs-->Never wrote a single ticket. Gave lots of warnings, and chewed some idiots out(trust me they needed it). I've arrested quite a few people too. You can't chase your husband around base housing with a kitchen knife screaming you'll kill him and not expect that. Personally, I hate cops as a whole. There are a few, I mean few, that do their jobs as intended to be. Most overexagerate their importance. To be 5mph over the limit in a Miata of sportbike with light weight and good stopping distances isn't a big deal. An Excursion full of people is a tad more unsafe. The speed limits should really be velocity or kinetic energy limits. I speed on the bike everytime I ride it. Sometimes more than less. If I don't continually pass people they tend to not notice me, which gets me run the F over. I drive like an old man compared to me teen years now. But there is a massive difference in destructive power between a Miata and a F350 jacked up on "mudders"


I miss Italy where on a beautiful day they'd just sit on the side of mountain roads and watch the bikes fly by. As long as you didn't blow by at triple digits they really didn't care. You wreck, you die. It ain't they're fault you rode outside of your ability. A buddy of mine lowsided in front of the Caribinari and took out a street sign and a few sprinklers a farmer had there. The cops stopped, checked to make sure we were alright, and yelled/threatened the farmer for his sprinklers watering the road. They said it was the farmers fault. And yes, we were speeding and they knew it. But if the road was dry we would have been fine.

Driving in the 3rd world can be fun when traffic is light enough that you can use other cars as autocross cones.

Ffwd to 1:50:

When was this? I was in Europe recently, and compared to 10 years ago, with the exception of Germany, the populace have been beaten into submission with the infection of speed cameras that started in the UK. I heard that the Italian driving soul is gone. RIP.

Someone tell me what "one car per green" on on-ramps actually do. And why I feel compelled to obey them in a car, and fly past the lines and through a red light when on my bike.

Metering lights do work at reducing slowdowns on the freeway. Kind of the same principle as the variable speed limits Europe has to slow traffic down before said traffic reaches stop and go. It eventually "dissipates" the slowdown.

Having said that I think the metering lights only work because drivers are stupid and accelerate and merge slowly, and drivers already on the freeway overslow when someone is merging slowly, instead of changing lanes to the left.