JasonC SBB

.. such as not stopping at 4way stop signs when you can see a half-mile in all directions and there are no other vehicles...

http://ericpetersautos.com/2012/03/20/breakin-the-law/

Joe Perez

iTrader: (8)

The traffic laws must be strictly and completely obeyed, without interpretation or the use of individual judgement. If they are not, then society as a whole will be immediately and totally destroyed.

[/sheep]

I doubt you'll find any individual who disagrees with the assertion that traffic laws can, at times, be utter BS are are best subject to interpretation based on circumstances.

Collectively, we as a society have not been successful at implementing such a concept in practice.

Reminds me of the demotivational poster to the effect that "None of us is as dumb as all of us."

JasonC SBB

I heard these terms distinguishing people or societies as "Rule Realists" vs. "Rule Formalists".

There are (relatively) good and bad examples of each.

"Rule Formalists" are exemplified by Germans and Americans (follow the law to the letter). When it comes to traffic laws, the big difference is that Germany has much better written traffic laws, and require the masses to pass much more stringent traffic laws. The system works very well. The USA in contrast, appears to dumb down its laws and thus criminalizes safe, competent drivers.

"Rule Fealists" are exemplified by Egypt and Brazil. e.g. "That stop sign is a suggestion". But there's a stark difference between them as well. Brazilian drivers seem to be much more competent and respect traffic flow (seems part of the driving culture), whereas driving in Egypt is very chaotic, slow, frustrating and dangerous.

JasonC SBB

This book describes the transition of America from Rule Realism to Rule Formalism.
It has caused a loss of freedom:

The Death of Common Sense: How Law Is Suffocating America

18psi

iTrader: (76)

Don't get me started on stupid laws.
Or stupid drivers that follow said stupid laws regardless of circumstance.

OMG my blood pressure went up just by thinking about it.

JasonC SBB

There is a 1983 book by Harold Berman, who taught history at Harvard, called Law and Revolution: The Origins of the Western Legal Tradition.


The result is "Tyranny by Bureaucracy". Bureaucratic agencies are formed to "solve" some "problem", and said bureaucrats then come up with new rules (which are enforced just like laws), to expand their fiefdoms. Rules which if enforced to the letter, can make your life a living hell. Think TSA, EPA.

You are guilty until proven innocent, at your expense.
This IRS, kangaroo traffic courts.

This form of tyranny is what affects the common person the most. All the stupid little rules and regulations wrt driving, opening a business, etc etc.

Joe Perez

iTrader: (8)

This, in my experience, is true.

I also found, rather interestingly, that Germans as a whole tend to take the traffic laws (including the pedestrian traffic laws) rather seriously. Whether this is reflective on the quality of the laws or the mostly-true stereotype of Germans as being rather serious folk in general is debatable.

When last I was in Bremen, for instance, one thing which I never, EVER saw was a pedestrian crossing the street against a red light. It's just not part of their mindset. "How could I possibly cross? The light is red. One cannot cross when the light is red."

Contrast this to any American (or French, or Canadian, or Italian, etc) city with a large pedestrian population.


Also, please stop posting links to books / articles that you know damn well none of us are going to buy / read. It degrades the character of the forum and cheapens the conversation.

JasonC SBB

I provide them for anyone who wants to dig further.

18psi

iTrader: (76)

Traffic laws and cops job descriptions in America are made exclusively for making money for the department/state, not to actually make our roads safer. IMHO

redturbomiata

iTrader: (5)

this, 2 years ago when i was in high school(yes im young) one of the cops would sit just out of the parking lot on a motorcycle and just hand out tickets to everyone that passed him, seat belts, rolling stops, lights out, etc.

Braineack

iTrader: (62)

i just got a parking ticket. most places allow you to contest it easily through mail; not in arlington. first i had to go online and request and affidavit. waited about 5 days for it to show up. then i had to fill out the affidavit to request a court date.

On the paperwork they warn about the court fee of an extra $61 if you lose your case and has a chart of all the typical offenses and the total that you will pay. In my case it wll be $101 if I lose. They spend the rest of the document talking about how your court date will be scheduled at 9am but hundreds of cases will be called in that day and you may have to be there all day.

basically they do everything they can to presuade you to just pay.

after another 5 days or so I finally got a my court date scheduled which is set in July, 5 months out...the packet came with my fluff about how much money and time you will waste if you lose.

so rediculous.


I've had at least 10 or so tickets dropped without any issue when i lived in richmond, some by mail some in person, but it was never a big deal. even in DC i was able to submit a photo of the meter i got a ticket at showing I was outside the time peroid and it was simply dropped without a visit to court.

lame lame lame.

hustler

iTrader: (6)

I think the single greatest exchange I ever had with a cop was when caught speeding while getting on the freeway in front of several 18-wheelers. Lawman asked if I saw him, I assure him that I did, and I confirmed that I thought it was safer than stopping on the ramp. I asked him "either I was going to stop on the ramp and get a ticket for impeding traffic or a ticket for speeding, the speeding ticket at 7mph seemed like a safer option." He agreed that I was getting a ticket either way and I made the right decision...which cost me $350.

JasonC SBB

I've seen arguments that the mass psychology of the Germans evolved into this due to the history of the Prussian and German "Cameralists" and the invention of the Prussian educational system aka today's government indoctrinatrion, er, public schools.

Prussia (which is roughly Germany today), invented public schooling as a means of indoctrinating the youth to have faith in their rulers, such as to go to war when told.

The "Cameralists" were gov't employed "intellectuals" who promoted (propagandized) the ideas of Statism and central control. Naturally they promoted that which benefited the ruling class.

I've seen arguments that the above evolution of said mass psychology of the Germans was the reason that extreme Statism took root in the 1910s and took its most famous form, the "N" word.

Interestingly the philosophy of Statism itself and the roots I mention above, aren't mentioned in the Wikipedia history of the "N party". It doesn't go back far enough.

JasonC SBB

A result of the system and its incentives.

He has an incentive to give you the ticket (unspoken quotas), instead of an incentive to do "what's right".

Or, in his mind, giving you the ticket is "the right thing", because cop candidates are screened to think that way.

hustler

iTrader: (6)

How else are they going to fund thermal imaging cameras and tanks for serving and protecting?

hustler

iTrader: (6)

This ticket really rubbed me the wrong way. Before this, I questioned the motives of police but still believed the provided a service worthy of the taxes procured on their behalf. After this event I have little to no respect for much of any police officer who issues a ticket.

I should note that a couple day ago at lunch I was nearly hit by a cop cruising in multiple lanes while texting.

Braineack

iTrader: (62)

yesterday i passed a cop, everyone else tailed him.


i felt alive.

JasonC SBB

I had this same epiphany many years ago. Before that, I was really puzzled when a friend said "I hate cops, they have too much power". That particular rabbit hole is one of many that lead to Wonderland.

18psi

iTrader: (76)

whoah, we got a badass over here

Scrappy Jack

iTrader: (2)

I refined my position, for the most part, to "FTC." That's more specific to traffic cops than police in general.

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