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-   -   The Current Events, News, and Politics Thread (https://www.miataturbo.net/current-events-news-politics-77/current-events-news-politics-thread-60908/)

dleavitt 06-28-2018 05:53 PM


Originally Posted by Joe Perez (Post 1488849)
Also, did I miss something here, or is the current president the one who ran in opposition to the party which came pretty close to nominating a candidate who openly espouses national socialism?

Politics is confusing. So many people seem to be hysterically afraid that the person who they didn't vote for, who opposes the thing which they person they did vote for supported, will somehow be responsible for enacting that thing.

Do I just need better drugs?

I don't think you are missing anything, but if you need better drugs you can probably ask the hysterically afraid people. They apparently have/are on some pretty good stuff.

rleete 06-28-2018 06:23 PM


Originally Posted by Joe Perez (Post 1488849)
Do I just need better drugs?

No. We need to teach more people to think for themselves, and rely less on what the media is telling them. On both sides.

This is the way most people operate, full on or completely off. There is very little common middle ground these days; every issue is an all or nothing proposition.
It has created divisiveness, hostility, rudeness and a lack of any understanding or sympathy for opposing points of view.

It's kind of scary to see otherwise normal, intelligent people fall into this trap and become unreasonable.

Joe Perez 06-28-2018 06:25 PM


Originally Posted by BGordon (Post 1488850)
Joe, you lost me there.

Not sure if serious. If so, please promise me that you won't ever vote.

A bunch of people who voted for Bernie Sanders believe that Donald Trump is equivalent to Adolf Hitler, and fear that he is in the process of ushering in an era of Nazism in the US.

Nazism, in the original German, is an abbreviation for National Socialism (Nationalsozialismus).

Bernie Sanders ran largely on a platform of National Socialism, and is, therefore, much closer to being a Nazi than the current president, who strongly opposes socialist policies.

Braineack 06-29-2018 09:01 AM

Liberals LOVE gov't intervention, until that same sword is pointed back at them.


https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net...6e&oe=5BE3EF9A

Joe Perez 06-29-2018 09:21 AM

Not gonna lie, I'd totally do her.

There's something about white girls with short hair that's just a total turn-on for me.

Skamba 06-29-2018 10:32 AM


Originally Posted by Joe Perez (Post 1488859)
Not sure if serious. If so, please promise me that you won't ever vote.

A bunch of people who voted for Bernie Sanders believe that Donald Trump is equivalent to Adolf Hitler, and fear that he is in the process of ushering in an era of Nazism in the US.

Nazism, in the original German, is an abbreviation for National Socialism (Nationalsozialismus).

Bernie Sanders ran largely on a platform of National Socialism, and is, therefore, much closer to being a Nazi than the current president, who strongly opposes socialist policies.

I don't think you understand what Nazism actually is.

Nazism is a form of fascism and showed that ideology's disdain for liberal democracy and the parliamentary system, but also incorporated fervent antisemitism, scientific racism, and eugenics into its creed.

Braineack 06-29-2018 11:18 AM


Originally Posted by Skamba (Post 1488948)
I don't think you understand what Nazism actually is.

Nazism is a form of fascism and showed that ideology's disdain for liberal democracy and the parliamentary system, but also incorporated fervent antisemitism, scientific racism, and eugenics into its creed.

that quote pretty much describes Bernie voters.

remove the references to non-citizens and jews out of the 25-point Program of the NSDAP and there's hardly a difference. or just replace non-citizens, non-germans with white-males.

dleavitt 06-29-2018 11:23 AM


Originally Posted by Skamba (Post 1488948)
I don't think you understand what Nazism actually is.

Did you read the definition you posted? Here, I've made a crude diagram to illustrate:

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...3cfd9f96c4.pngMS Paint!
Nazis were Fascists, which were part of a larger National Socialist political philosophy.

Trump is a nationalist, but not a socialist. Socialist economic and social policy was a significant part of Fascism, and therefore Nazism. Bernie Sanders is most certainly a socialist, and could possibly be placed under the National Socialist umbrella (though I honestly don't know how much of a nationalist he is). That would put him, as far as political philosophy is concerned, closer the Nazism than Trump.

Now you can claim that Trump is all sorts of terribad things, but to say that he is a Nazi is false.

Braineack 06-29-2018 11:44 AM

who said it? Hitler or Bernie:

The common good before the individual good.

Because it seems inseparable from the social idea and we do not believe that there could ever exist a state with lasting inner health if it is not built on internal social justice, and so we have joined forces with this knowledge.

We want to build up a new state! That is why the others hate us so much today…. They are, after all, plutocracies in which a tiny clique of capitalists dominate the masses.

Yes, certainly, we jeopardize the liberty to profiteer at the expense of the community, and, if necessary, we even abolish it.

All my life I have been a 'have-not.' At home I was a 'have-not.' I regard myself as belonging to them and have always fought exclusively for them. I defended them and, therefore, I stand before the world as their representative.

The creation of a socially just state, a model society that would continue to eradicate all social barriers.

One may regret living at a period when it's impossible to form an idea of the shape the world of the future will assume. But there's one thing I can predict to eaters of meat: the world of the future will be vegetarian.

They bring in high earnings without work. One of these days I’ll sweep away this outrage and nationalize all corporations.

A strong State will see that production is carried on in the national interests, and, if these interests are contravened, can proceed to expropriate the enterprise concerned and take over its administration.

good2go 06-29-2018 11:48 AM


Originally Posted by Joe Perez (Post 1488933)

Not gonna lie, I'd totally do her.

There's something about white girls with short hair that's just a total turn-on for me.

Did you just assume . . . :rolleyes:

good2go 06-29-2018 11:53 AM


Originally Posted by Braineack (Post 1488985)
who said it? Hitler or Bernie:

...

The veggie comment gave it away.

Braineack 06-29-2018 12:14 PM

so you guessed Hitler for them all? cause that's the correct answer.

Joe Perez 06-29-2018 12:36 PM


Originally Posted by good2go (Post 1488989)
Did you just assume . . . :rolleyes:

:bowrofl:

Skamba 06-29-2018 12:44 PM


Originally Posted by Braineack (Post 1488975)
that quote pretty much describes Bernie voters.

remove the references to non-citizens and jews out of the 25-point Program of the NSDAP and there's hardly a difference. or just replace non-citizens, non-germans with white-males.

You think (free market socialist) democrats have a disdain for liberal democracy and the parliamentary system? Or that they are anti-semites, scientific racists and pro-eugenics? I'd like a source on that stuff please :-)

Skamba 06-29-2018 12:46 PM


Originally Posted by dleavitt (Post 1488978)
Did you read the definition you posted? Here, I've made a crude diagram to illustrate:

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...3cfd9f96c4.pngMS Paint!
Nazis were Fascists, which were part of a larger National Socialist political philosophy.

Trump is a nationalist, but not a socialist. Socialist economic and social policy was a significant part of Fascism, and therefore Nazism. Bernie Sanders is most certainly a socialist, and could possibly be placed under the National Socialist umbrella (though I honestly don't know how much of a nationalist he is). That would put him, as far as political philosophy is concerned, closer the Nazism than Trump.

Now you can claim that Trump is all sorts of terribad things, but to say that he is a Nazi is false.

You do know facists and socialists opposed each other? :-)

Braineack 06-29-2018 01:10 PM


Originally Posted by Skamba (Post 1489007)
You think (free market socialist) democrats

you lost me, sorry.

Braineack 06-29-2018 01:25 PM


Originally Posted by Skamba (Post 1489008)
You do know facists and socialists opposed each other? :-)

are you another Holocaust denier too?




Through the agency of three new guilds (the Food Estate, the Estate of Trade and Industry, and the Labor Front), the government assumed control of every group of producers and consumers in the country. In accordance with the method of “German socialism,” the facade of a market economy was retained. All prices, wages, and interest rates, however, were “fixed by the central authority. They [were] prices, wages, and interest rates in appearance only; in reality they [were] merely determinations of quantity relations in the government’s orders . . . . This is socialism in the outward guise of capitalism.”

The nation’s businessmen retained the responsibility to produce and suffered the losses attendant on failure. The state determined the purpose and conditions of their production, and reaped the benefits; directly or indirectly, it expropriated all profits. “The time is past,” explained the Nazi Minister of Economics, “when the notion of economic self-seeking and unrestricted use of profits made can be allowed to dominate . . . . The economic system must serve the nation.”

“What a dummkopf I was!” cried steel baron Fritz Thyssen, an early Nazi supporter, who fled the country . . . .

As to Hitler’s pledges to the poorer groups: the Republic’s social insurance budgets were greatly increased, and a variety of welfare funds, programs, agencies, and policies were introduced or expanded, including special provisions for such items as unemployment relief, workmen’s compensation, health insurance, pensions, Winter Help campaigns for the destitute, the Reich Mothers’ Service for indigent mothers and children, and the National Socialist People’s Welfare organization.

During the Hitler years—in order to finance the party’s programs, including the war expenditures—every social group in Germany was mercilessly exploited and drained. White-collar salaries and the earnings of small businessmen were deliberately held down by government controls, freezes, taxes. Big business was bled by taxes and “special contributions” of every kind, and strangled by the bureaucracy . . . . At the same time the income of the farmers was held down, and there was a desperate flight to the cities—where the middle class, especially the small tradesmen, were soon in desperate straits, and where the workers were forced to labor at low wages for increasingly longer hours (up to 60 or more per week).

The Nazis defended their policies, and the country did not rebel; it accepted the Nazi argument. Selfish individuals may be unhappy, the Nazis said, but what we have established in Germany is the ideal system, socialism. In its Nazi usage this term is not restricted to a theory of economics; it is to be understood in a fundamental sense. “Socialism” for the Nazis denotes the principle of collectivism as such and its corollary, statism—in every field of human action, including but not limited to economics.

“To be a socialist,” says Goebbels, “is to submit the I to the thou; socialism is sacrificing the individual to the whole.”

By this definition, the Nazis practiced what they preached. They practiced it at home and then abroad. No one can claim that they did not sacrifice enough individuals.

Contrary to the Marxists, the Nazis did not advocate public ownership of the means of production. They did demand that the government oversee and run the nation’s economy. The issue of legal ownership, they explained, is secondary; what counts is the issue of control. Private citizens, therefore, may continue to hold titles to property—so long as the state reserves to itself the unqualified right to regulate the use of their property.

If “ownership” means the right to determine the use and disposal of material goods, then Nazism endowed the state with every real prerogative of ownership. What the individual retained was merely a formal deed, a contentless deed, which conferred no rights on its holder. Under communism, there is collective ownership of property de jure. Under Nazism, there is the same collective ownership de facto.


If the term “statism” designates concentration of power in the state at the expense of individual liberty, then Nazism in politics was a form of statism. In principle, it did not represent a new approach to government; it was a continuation of the political absolutism—the absolute monarchies, the oligarchies, the theocracies, the random tyrannies—which has characterized most of human history.

In degree, however, the total state does differ from its predecessors: it represents statism pressed to its limits, in theory and in practice, devouring the last remnants of the individual. Although previous dictators (and many today, e.g., in Latin America) often preached the unlimited power of the state, they were on the whole unable to enforce such power. As a rule, citizens of such countries had a kind of partial “freedom,” not a freedom-on-principle, but at least a freedom-by-default.

Even the latter was effectively absent in Nazi Germany. The efficiency of the government in dominating its subjects, the all-encompassing character of its coercion, the complete mass regimentation on a scale involving millions of men—and, one might add, the enormity of the slaughter, the planned, systematic mass slaughter, in peacetime, initiated by a government against its own citizens—these are the insignia of twentieth-century totalitarianism (Nazi and communist), which are without parallel in recorded history. In the totalitarian regimes, as the Germans found out after only a few months of Hitler’s rule, every detail of life is prescribed, or proscribed. There is no longer any distinction between private matters and public matters. “There are to be no more private Germans,” said Friedrich Sieburg, a Nazi writer; “each is to attain significance only by his service to the state, and to find complete self-fulfillment in this service.” “The only person who is still a private individual in Germany,” boasted Robert Ley, a member of the Nazi hierarchy, after several years of Nazi rule, “is somebody who is asleep.”

In place of the despised “private individuals,” the Germans heard daily or hourly about a different kind of entity, a supreme entity, whose will, it was said, is what determines the course and actions of the state: the nation, the whole, the group. Over and over, the Germans heard the idea that underlies the advocacy of omnipotent government, the idea that totalitarians of every kind stress as the justification of their total states: collectivism.

Collectivism is the theory that the group (the collective) has primacy over the individual. Collectivism holds that, in human affairs, the collective—society, the community, the nation, the proletariat, the race, etc.—is the unit of reality and the standard of value. On this view, the individual has reality only as part of the group, and value only insofar as he serves it; on his own he has no political rights; he is to be sacrificed for the group whenever it—or its representative, the state—deems this desirable.

- Leonard Peikoff, The Ominous Parallels



The difference between [socialism and fascism] is superficial and purely formal, but it is significant psychologically: it brings the authoritarian nature of a planned economy crudely into the open.

The main characteristic of socialism (and of communism) is public ownership of the means of production, and, therefore, the abolition of private property. The right to property is the right of use and disposal. Under fascism, men retain the semblance or pretense of private property, but the government holds total power over its use and disposal.

The dictionary definition of fascism is: “a governmental system with strong centralized power, permitting no opposition or criticism, controlling all affairs of the nation (industrial, commercial, etc.), emphasizing an aggressive nationalism . . .” [The American College Dictionary,
New York: Random House, 1957.]

Under fascism, citizens retain the responsibilities of owning property, without freedom to act and without any of the advantages of ownership. Under socialism, government officials acquire all the advantages of ownership, without any of the responsibilities, since they do not hold title to the property, but merely the right to use it—at least until the next purge. In either case, the government officials hold the economic, political and legal power of life or death over the citizens.

Needless to say, under either system, the inequalities of income and standard of living are greater than anything possible under a free economy—and a man’s position is determined, not by his productive ability and achievement, but by political pull and force.

Under both systems, sacrifice is invoked as a magic, omnipotent solution in any crisis—and “the public good” is the altar on which victims are immolated. But there are stylistic differences of emphasis. The socialist-communist axis keeps promising to achieve abundance, material comfort and security for its victims, in some indeterminate future. The fascist-Nazi axis scorns material comfort and security, and keeps extolling some undefined sort of spiritual duty, service and conquest. The socialist-communist axis offers its victims an alleged social ideal. The fascist-Nazi axis offers nothing but loose talk about some unspecified form of racial or national “greatness.” The socialist-communist axis proclaims some grandiose economic plan, which keeps receding year by year. The fascist-Nazi axis merely extols leadership—leadership without purpose, program or direction—and power for power’s sake.


[Some “moderates” are trying to] revive that old saw of pre-World War II vintage, the notion that the two political opposites confronting us, the two “extremes,” are: fascism versus communism.

The political origin of that notion is more shameful than the “moderates” would care publicly to admit. Mussolini came to power by claiming that that was the only choice confronting Italy. Hitler came to power by claiming that that was the only choice confronting Germany. It is a matter of record that in the German election of 1933, the Communist Party was ordered by its leaders to vote for the Nazis—with the explanation that they could later fight the Nazis for power, but first they had to help destroy their common enemy: capitalism and its parliamentary form of government.

It is obvious what the fraudulent issue of fascism versus communism accomplishes: it sets up, as opposites, two variants of the same political system; it eliminates the possibility of considering capitalism; it switches the choice of “Freedom or dictatorship?” into “Which kind of dictatorship?”—thus establishing dictatorship as an inevitable fact and offering only a choice of rulers. The choice—according to the proponents of that fraud—is: a dictatorship of the rich (fascism) or a dictatorship of the poor (communism).

That fraud collapsed in the 1940’s, in the aftermath of World War II. It is too obvious, too easily demonstrable that fascism and communism are not two opposites, but two rival gangs fighting over the same territory—that both are variants of statism, based on the collectivist principle that man is the rightless slave of the state—that both are socialistic, in theory, in practice, and in the explicit statements of their leaders—that under both systems, the poor are enslaved and the rich are expropriated in favor of a ruling clique—that fascism is not the product of the political “right,” but of the “left”—that the basic issue is not “rich versus poor,” but man versus the state, or: individual rights versus totalitarian government—which means: capitalism versus socialism.

- Ayn Rand




“Each activity and each need of the individual will thereby be regulated by the party as the representative of the general good. There will be no license, no free space, in which the individual belongs to himself. This is Socialism—not such trifles as the private possession of the means of production. Of what importance is that if I range men firmly within a discipline they cannot escape? Let them then own land or factories as much as they please. The decisive factor is that the State, through the party, is supreme over them, regardless whether they are owners or workers. All that, you see, is unessential. Our Socialism goes far deeper . . . .

“[T]he people about us are unaware of what is really happening to them. They gaze fascinated at one or two familiar superficialities, such as possessions and income and rank and other outworn conceptions. As long as these are kept intact, they are quite satisfied. But in the meantime they have entered a new relation; a powerful social force has caught them up. They themselves are changed. What are ownership and income to that? Why need we trouble to socialize banks and factories? We socialize human beings.”

-Adolf Hitler

dleavitt 06-29-2018 01:25 PM


Originally Posted by Skamba (Post 1489008)
You do know facists and socialists opposed each other? :-)

Fascists are National Socialists. They were/are socialists not just in name, but in economic policy and government social welfare policy. Modern-day socialists try their hardest to deny this, of course, because Nazi.

Communists are International Socialists, as are most people who would describe themselves as "socialist" today. Communists somehow had better PR management allies than the Fascists did, which is why they aren't vilified to the same extent despite killing many multiples more people.

Skamba 06-29-2018 01:25 PM


Originally Posted by Braineack (Post 1489012)
you lost me, sorry.

You know, the ideology that Sanders follows, which is what we were discussing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model

It would be nice if you could provide some sources on your previous comment! Thanks.

Braineack 06-29-2018 01:27 PM

there's no such thing as a free-market socialist, no matter how much sugar you sprinkle on it. therefore i cant respond to the rest of the words behind that.



Liberal democracy is a liberal political ideology and a form of government in which representative democracy operates under the principles of classical liberalism.

Classical liberalism is a political ideology and a branch of liberalism which advocates civil liberties under the rule of law with an emphasis on economic freedom.

Economic freedom or economic liberty is the ability of people of a society to take economic actions.

The most obvious weakness of our Constitution is that the economic rights of our citizens are not adequately addressed. Freedom must mean more than the right to vote every four years for a candidate for President. Freedom must also mean the right of a citizen to decent income, decent shelter, decent health care, decent educational opportunity and decent retirement benefits. One is not free sleeping out in the streets. One is not free eating cat food in order to survive.
-Bernie Sanders.


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