kotomile

iTrader: (24)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11332515

"Even in our own lifetimes we can recall how Britain and her leaders stood against a **** tyranny that wished to eradicate God from society and denied our common humanity to many, especially the Jews, who were thought unfit to live.

"As we reflect on the sobering lessons of atheist extremism of the 20th century, let us never forget how the exclusion of God, religion and virtue from public life leads ultimately to a truncated vision of man and of society and thus a reductive vision of a person and his destiny."

- The Pope

"The notion that it was the atheism of ***** that led to their extremist and hateful views or that it somehow fuels intolerance in Britain today is a terrible libel against those who do not believe in God.

"The notion that it is non-religious people in the UK today who want to force their views on others, coming from a man whose organisation exerts itself internationally to impose its narrow and exclusive form of morality and undermine the human rights of women, children, gay people and many others, is surreal."

- The British Humanist Association


Discuss.

NA6C-Guy

iTrader: (1)

Well ****. I'm an atheist, and all this time I was really a **** all along. Oh well, that coming from the leader of one of the most dangerous organizations in the world... the Catholic Church...

gospeed81

iTrader: (51)

Extremism is ugly regardless of which banner it's under.

Joe Perez

iTrader: (8)

***** weren't atheists. There were some strong anti-Catholic undertones (and who can blame them) but if anything, the "official" position of the **** leadership tended towards protestant Christianity seasoned with a measure of occult paganism. (Remember, even satanists aren't atheists.)

I wonder if the pope has ever read "Mein Kampf"?


“I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lords work.”
(Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Reichstag, Berlin, 1936.)

"I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.”
[Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp. 46]

“….the personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew.”
[Adolph Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 11]

“Thus inwardly armed with confidence in God and the unshakable stupidity of the voting citizenry, the politicians can begin the fight for the ‘remaking’ of the Reich as they call it.”
[Adolph Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 1]


Incidentally, does this count as having invoked Godwin's Law?

gospeed81

iTrader: (51)

LOL


Good history lesson. Maybe there's a spot for you at the Vatican.

kotomile

iTrader: (24)

Excellent Joe, learned something there.

I'm going to say yes, the pope invoked Godwin's law. What better way to demonise Athieists than by comparing us to *****, after all?

Joe Perez

iTrader: (8)

Now, interestingly, this is the fellow who the Pope ought to have been prattling on about:



(Yes, I've been dying for an excuse to use that picture for quite a while.)

The Soviet Union, as it happens, was a true Atheist state. Insofar as political ideology is concerned, Karl Marx held religion to be "the opium of the people," and Lenin observed that "All modern religions and churches, all and of every kind of religious organizations are always considered by Marxism as the organs of bourgeois reaction, used for the protection of the exploitation and the stupefaction of the working class." Josef Stalin, pictured above, was particularly militant in the persecution of practitioners of religion in the Soviet Union; not just Christianity, but Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, etc. Under his reign, tens of thousands of religious leaders were imprisoned or shot, and their churches and other structured razed to the ground.

Now, some observers of history have posited that, far from being a mere ideological issue, faith and religious practice posed a threat to Soviet-style communism. Religion offered an alternative and perhaps contrarian ideology, a set of guidelines which differ from the official state-sanctioned point of view. The Jewish Talmud, for instance, has much to say on the ethics and philosophy of an organized society, and the the Islamic Sharia and the Catholic Canon (along with many, many other major religious texts) contain what are essentially complete sets of both religious and secular law, including rules governing political and economic conduct. Dangerous stuff for a government founded on the assertion that they, and they alone possess the only and absolute truth in all matters of political, social and economic activity.


Regardless of the underlying reasons, the fact is that the Soviet Union was undeniably both a communist and an atheist state. And as it happens, the **** movement, irrespective of any religious views one way or another, was strongly opposed to communism. I think this is a point which may be lost on some readers, so it bears repeating: The ***** may have been fascist *********, but National Socialism (the **** Party's official ideology) is a vastly different thing from Marxist-Leninist Communism.

So perhaps there's an element of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" in all of this. I imagine myself as a young worker in the Reich Ministry of Public Enlightenment, sitting down to compose a nice batch of anti-Bolshevik propaganda, and what a convenient hook this is- those damn godless commies!



I'm not entirely convinced that the Pope isn't an idiot. Granted, I'm sure he's still trying to distance himself from the affairs of **** Germany (he was, after all, a member of the Hitler Youth) however I'm not certain that deliberately falsifying history is a good tactic.

Fireindc

iTrader: (13)

As has been said, ***** were christian. This makes no sense. Tag "extremism" onto anything and scare people. Propaganda.

chicksdigmiatas

iTrader: (11)

We all know why ****'s did what they did. They were not atheists. I think that they gave Christians a bad name, right up there with the crusades. The pope is far from perfect, but better than ones that have recently preceded him. Atleast he will admit there is corruption in the catholic church. That is a step in the right direction. I am glad someone had the schnutz to stand up for Christianity.

"The notion that it is non-religious people in the UK today who want to force their views on others, coming from a man whose organisation exerts itself internationally to impose its narrow and exclusive form of morality and undermine the human rights of women, children, gay people and many others, is surreal."

I mostly disagree with this. I get sick of people calling Christians narrow minded. I am not Catholic. I know that they are extremists as far as the Papacy goes. However, I have had more atheists try to impose their view on me than anyone else. It seems that me wearing a cross makes me stupid. If i tell them that maybe they are wrong, I am the one that is closed minded because of my religion. Someone could have not assembled this meticulously crafted, perfectly balanced, seemingly well thought out system we have. It HAS to be a giant accident.

I'm not entirely convinced that the Pope isn't an idiot. Granted, I'm sure he's still trying to distance himself from the affairs of **** Germany (he was, after all, a member of the Hitler Youth) however I'm not certain that deliberately falsifying history is a good tactic.

Every religion has done this. It is nothing new. I seem to recall a scientist grafting a human skull and an ape jaw together and acid washing them to appear the same age to support the idea of evolution. He got busted when someone wanted to carbon date. LOL.

gospeed81

iTrader: (51)

My mention of extremism was more to point out the catholic extremism which chooses to ignore facts or REALLY learn from history.

Funny part is that not only would Stalin have been more fitting for the point, but he also killed twice as many folks as Hitler...second only to Mao Ze Dong (also communist) on the list of "most benevolent dictators."

Those who ignore history like to attach a lot of things to the famous German with funny facial hair, instead of seeing that he was simply a madman at the helm of a poorly labeled party that came into favor in a Christian nation down on their luck. Honestly, no real ideological beliefs can be pinned down and blamed for the Genocide...just the combination of many social, economic and politcal factors and the fanatical following of a stark raving lunatic.

Stalin and his Chinese counterpart, viewed as revolutionary heroes in their countries, were cold and hard, guided by their Marxist views, and together are speculated to have killed up to 150M of their own countrymen (to Hitlers 12M, many non-Germans).

Savington

iTrader: (31)

kotomile

iTrader: (24)

Other way around for me. Not meaning to flame or cause offense, but I only argue for Atheism if someone else brings it up. I had some Mormons come around while I was working on the Miata at my apartment in Texas and we talked for about 10 minutes before they asked if I had any sort of religion. We had a polite discussion and since their only counter to the theory of evolution was "I just know I didn't come from a monkey" we agreed to disagree. I sleep well at night knowing the evidence is on my side.

magnamx-5

iTrader: (7)

yeah tell that to some of the atheastists i know. It seems they are always looking for an angle to change my views. I dont press my beliefs on anyone but, it is a crying shame that everytime they see something they think will blow my faith or confidence the first thing they must do is rub it in my face and engage me about it. It gets very annoying, if i didn't know any better i would say that they thought i had nvr assumed or thought of any of the points they come up with.

Just becouse someone has faith in a higher does not automatically disqaulify them from all moral dilemas instead, it shows that that is the choice they made to help deal with siad dilemas and day to day life. We are not all missionarys scrounging to save souls. The way i see it if god wants me to save you he will put me to it. Other than that it is none of my business what you do or believe.

mgeoffriau

iTrader: (7)

No comment on the papacy or atheism vs. religion debate, but I will say that it's pretty silly to believe that the **** government had any interest in actually following Christian doctrine and principles. As with most of what the ****'s did, the attempt to outwardly align themselves with Christianity was nothing but a calculated attempt to consolidate political power.

Joe Perez

iTrader: (8)

No question that they were largely using the doctrine of Lutheranism as a convenient plinth upon which to elevate their agendas.

Hitler himself was probably the least consistent member of the **** party inasmuch as claiming adherence to any particular religious order are concerned. Some sources cite the Fuhrer as having stated in 1941 that "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so," whereas others have cited him as variously denouncing the Catholic church, espousing Protestantism, citing scripture from the Christian bible to support his political and social agenda, and claiming that "We do not want any other god than Germany itself."

Or put another way, he was simply saying whatever suited his purpose at the moment. Either that, or he was schizophrenic. No big surprises either way.

In the end, however, It's simply incorrect to evoke "a **** tyranny that wished to eradicate God from society". As a matter of official policy, **** Germany was a Lutheran state.




No argument here. The Crusades took place well before the schism that resulted in the protestant reformation, which was the point at which there became a clear dividing line between what we now know as the Catholic church and the the modern Christian church. So we can't really heave blame for it squarely on the shoulders of the Catholics (since they didn't exist as a discrete sect) however "the church" as it existed then was still essentially under the exclusive control of the papacy and, thus, functionally the Catholic church.

Frankly, Catholicism pisses me off, and I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who self-identifies as a Christian. Too much idolatry. Just because some old guy in a funny hat says that so-and-so is now a Saint, this somehow makes that person the equal of Christ insofar as their ability to act as an intercessory medium to God himself?

mgeoffriau

iTrader: (7)

Well, if you're a member of a Protestant church, the RCC has declared you to be anathema (regardless of whatever nice things they might say about the Protestant church now). So, there's good reason to be pissed off.

Joe Perez

iTrader: (8)

What good reason is that? I don't believe that the Pope or anyone else in the RCC has any influence over the relationship between God & myself any more than I believe that Jamie Oliver has the power to declare that my car is yellow instead of blue.

Frankly, I don't even care about the whole molesting-little-boys thing, I just think that the Catholic Church has managed, over the past thousand years, to devolve into an essentially pagan religion which bears little resemblance to anything that could reasonably be called Christianity, to the point where it's almost meaningless to acknowledge them.

sixshooter

iTrader: (12)

I see that. Actually the Roman adoption of Christianity was a move that melded some of the existing Roman deities into Christianity as "saints". Many other things that were not present in either the old or new testament appeared as a part of this adaptation as well. I see where the wealthy and educated could control the unsophisticated masses in olden times but once the populous could read and Gutenberg and others made Bibles easier for the masses to obtain, I would think that there would be some tough questions being asked.

chicksdigmiatas

iTrader: (11)

I agree with a few things said. As for the argument against the idea of evolution, I have a well thought out bag of counterarguments, only used when provoked and told I have to be wrong, and am being illogical. I agree with magna, if feel like you want me to preach to you, and I am being told to do such, I will. I don't go around forcing my will upon everyone. I am far from a missionary. I also agree with Joe, no one but me, myself, and I have control over the relationship I choose to have with God. I really don't care for the Catholic church and what it has done. Over all the catholic church needs to be turned around. This did not help relations out with anyone, but I do like the idea of someone standing up, just not like that.