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Old 05-30-2013, 10:11 AM   #1
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Post Investigate Allegations of Corruption?

Only if "there is sufficient public interest by petition."

Petition page with news clip regarding allegations of corruption in the most recent Congressional vote in the US Virgin Islands.

Some of the allegations involve the mis-use of voting machines. Specifically, the allegation says that the local Attorney General instructed the Board of Elections to use non-certified voting machines that were specifically prohibited by law.

Also a fun tidbit: "The Attorney General assigned a portion of his staff to the task of investigating the 2012 general election and simultaneously assigned other staff to defend in court the same Board of Election Members, as his client, against the same overlapping allegations he is investigating them for."


Full disclosure: this is related to Warren Mosler's election loss in the 2012 Congressional elections. I signed because I am:

(A) a fan of Mosler and would love to see him with a Federal seat and

(B) offended by the blatant disregard of law and voter authority shown by the US VI Attorney General and others. I am sure this kind of crap goes on all over in small towns throughout the country and when it happens, it needs to come to light to at least try and maintain the validity of the voting process.
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Old 05-30-2013, 01:46 PM   #2
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https://www.miataturbo.net/current-e...r-fraud-66689/

I'd TL;DR on this, but cliffs: After reviewing what he believes is evidence, I'm having trouble finding clear signs of fraud. There is evidence pointing towards the potential of fraud having happened, but not evidence pointing towards fraud. He is claiming the latter, while having the former, which leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

When someone posts things such as The Center of the Universe Blog Archive USVI Election results I find them incredibly difficult to take seriously, considering the data follows traditional (non-fraudulent) voting and he is trying to claim there *is* fraud from a very traditional voting pattern. You don't claim fraud without hard, serious evidence that it happened.

As the Republicans can attest from 2012 and Democrats can attest from 2004, surveys and polls don't really mean anything.
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Old 05-30-2013, 02:36 PM   #3
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blaen - Did you read any of the petition text? The Attorney General appears to have very clearly violated a law by directing the Election Board members to use something other than the approved voting machines. That is the crux of the allegation, as I interpreted it.

There may or may not have been tampering or other issues with the non-approved machines, and I think that's the under-lying - but non-primary - complaint. It certainly does seem to "smell off." For example:
ST. THOMAS - With little more than half a day to spare before the polls were set to open for Election Day, St. Thomas-St. John Board of Elections member Harry Daniel tried to put to rest more than a week of tumult in which the district's voting machines have been malfunctioning.

About 6 p.m. Monday, Daniel declared the district's voting machines certified after board Chairwoman Alecia Wells decided she would not take a direct role in the certification because she is running for re-election on today's ballot.
Fun fact: Daniel was apparently not designated as the Election Board's representative until after he certified the non-approved machines.

I don't understand what you are saying here:
"[...]the data follows traditional (non-fraudulent) voting and he is trying to claim there *is* fraud from a very traditional voting pattern. You don't claim fraud without hard, serious evidence that it happened."

Can you rephrase that or say it another way?
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Old 05-30-2013, 08:58 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrappy Jack View Post
blaen - Did you read any of the petition text? The Attorney General appears to have very clearly violated a law by directing the Election Board members to use something other than the approved voting machines. That is the crux of the allegation, as I interpreted it.

There may or may not have been tampering or other issues with the non-approved machines, and I think that's the under-lying - but non-primary - complaint. It certainly does seem to "smell off." For example:
ST. THOMAS - With little more than half a day to spare before the polls were set to open for Election Day, St. Thomas-St. John Board of Elections member Harry Daniel tried to put to rest more than a week of tumult in which the district's voting machines have been malfunctioning.

About 6 p.m. Monday, Daniel declared the district's voting machines certified after board Chairwoman Alecia Wells decided she would not take a direct role in the certification because she is running for re-election on today's ballot.
Fun fact: Daniel was apparently not designated as the Election Board's representative until after he certified the non-approved machines.
Already been documented dozens of times, and the linked thread on here of mine documents lots of these cases, Scrappy. Good luck trying that avenue, it's been consistently blocked by the GOP as far back as Bush and that in and of itself does not prove voting fraud, just incompetence. As I said, there's clearly potential for fraud to have happened (See: Tampering of machines), but fraud has yet to be proven (Precedent in these cases, thanks to the GOP, makes it extremely clear that just because someone tampered with a machine does not actually prove fraud, as retarded as that sounds.)

Quote:
I don't understand what you are saying here:
"[...]the data follows traditional (non-fraudulent) voting and he is trying to claim there *is* fraud from a very traditional voting pattern. You don't claim fraud without hard, serious evidence that it happened."

Can you rephrase that or say it another way?
Read his link, read my links in my linked thread.

It explains in detail why his link is actually predicted and normal behavior in voting.
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Old 05-30-2013, 09:41 PM   #5
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I still feel like you are either talking over me or you are not addressing the items in question, but I am not sure which.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The text in the link in the OP
Pursuant to 42 USCA 15481(a)(6), the U.S. Virgin Islands accomplished uniform voting system standards and thereby defined what constitutes a vote and counts as a vote under the Federal Help America Vote Act (HAVA) by enacting into law Act 7334, Section 3.

This single law mandates from December 28, 2011 forward, without condition or exception:

“...ONLY those voting machines and equipment that are EAC certified pursuant to the Help America Vote Act (HAVA), Public Law 107-252, for Primary, General and Special elections shall be utilized as the official voting systems or equipment.”

Standing at the heart of our concerns are the actions by the Attorney General, Vincent Frazier, to instruct the Boards of Elections just weeks before the 2012 general election to deploy outlawed, non-EAC certified, voting machines on which approximately 90% of the vote tabulation was derived and subsequently used as a basis for swearing-in of candidates into public office.

Highlighting the Attorney General's disregard for law, 18 V.I.C. 6 states:

“NO amendments to this title [VI Code 18] shall be enacted by the Legislature in the period of six (6) months immediately preceding the date of a general election except in compliance with an order issued by a court of competent jurisdiction.”

Unless I am misunderstanding this topic (which is possible as I've spent very little time on it), the allegations are:

* The law says only certain EAC certified voting machines may be used.
* Non-EAC certified voting machines were used.
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Old 05-30-2013, 11:10 PM   #6
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I signed the petition. Someone should face the fire for failing to follow election regulations.

Also, we got a pingback on Mosler's site:

Attached Thumbnails
Investigate Allegations of Corruption?-mtnet.jpg  
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Old 05-31-2013, 07:42 AM   #7
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Ha! That had to have been the most random and unexpected pingback ever on that site.
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Old 05-31-2013, 11:22 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrappy Jack View Post
I still feel like you are either talking over me or you are not addressing the items in question, but I am not sure which.




Unless I am misunderstanding this topic (which is possible as I've spent very little time on it), the allegations are:

* The law says only certain EAC certified voting machines may be used.
* Non-EAC certified voting machines were used.
Please read, which is from the thread I linked:

Black Box Voting : (TN) 4/12 - SHELBY COUNTY PERFORMED UNAUTHORIZED ALTERATIONS IN ITS (NOW UNCERTIFIED!) VOTING SYSTEM -

If Mosler is at all serious about what he is saying, he'll contact bbv - they are the leading players in proving election fraud, of which Mosler has not done. He's proved the possibility of fraud and that tampering happened Scrappy.
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Old 05-31-2013, 11:33 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by blaen99 View Post
Now I am totally lost. In the thread you just linked, they were using certified machines that had been modified with a different program. In your link, Bev Harris alleges this renders the voting system in the county in question as decertified.

She then goes on to say, "[the county in question] will claim that they don't need to use a certified system."

A) In the link I posted, the author cited a very specific statute that says the US Virgin Islands must legally use EAC certified machines. I quoted that text in this very thread.

B) Even assuming both cases were exactly the same, why would you not think the US VI Congressional case was worth investigating and trying to continue to shine light on potential voting fruad in the USA?


Edit in response to your edit: Mosler contacted Bev Harris herself and she said she wasn't interested.
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Old 05-31-2013, 11:42 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrappy Jack View Post
Now I am totally lost. In the thread you just linked, they were using certified machines that had been modified with a different program. In your link, Bev Harris alleges this renders the voting system in the county in question as decertified.

She then goes on to say, "[the county in question] will claim that they don't need to use a certified system."

A) In the link I posted, the author cited a very specific statute that says the US Virgin Islands must legally use EAC certified machines. I quoted that text in this very thread.
This is correct. The USVI and the story I linked are virtually identical situations, Scrappy.

Quote:
B) Even assuming both cases were exactly the same, why would you not think the US VI Congressional case was worth investigating and trying to continue to shine light on potential voting fruad in the USA?
I do not not think (DOUBLE NEGATIVE, SUCK IT!) that it's worth investigating, Scrappy. That's not what I'm saying.

I'm bristling at Mosler claiming vote fraud without having proved it. It is worth investigating, but Mosler needs to STAHP on the vote fraud claims unless and until he proves there is substantial reason to suspect vote fraud.

Quote:
Edit in response to your edit: Mosler contacted Bev Harris herself and she said she wasn't interested.
If Bev Harris isn't interested, that likely validates my initial reaction Scrappy. Mosler proved tampering happened, yes. But the proof he's posted on vote fraud hurts his case (See: Post I linked of his).
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Old 05-31-2013, 11:49 AM   #11
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Holy ****. I feel like you are arguing even when you are agreeing with someone. Go sign the petition and stop giving me a hard time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blaen99 View Post
If Bev Harris isn't interested, that likely validates my initial reaction Scrappy. Mosler proved tampering happened, yes. But the proof he's posted on vote fraud hurts his case (See: Post I linked of his).
He said that she was not really interested in working with individual candidates any more. I'm not signing up on a new forum and doing a deep-dive for this, but if you are part of the BBV community, please feel free to bring this case to their attention.
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Old 05-31-2013, 11:53 AM   #12
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Holy ****. I feel like you are arguing even when you are agreeing with someone. Go sign the petition and stop giving me a hard time.
Lulz, soz Scrappinator. But seriously, vote fraud is a pretty major allegation to make. Gotta have all your ducks in a row at this point if you want to play that card.

Quote:
He said that she was not really interested in working with individual candidates any more. I'm not signing up on a new forum and doing a deep-dive for this, but if you are part of the BBV community, please feel free to bring this case to their attention.
Let me see who may be interested in this. The problem is that the data Mosler has posted hurts his case, and because he went to accusations of vote fraud early based on data that was not conclusive of that, it makes it feel like a case of 'sore loser' rather than tampering (Which he did prove) and possible vote fraud.
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Old 06-01-2013, 10:14 AM   #13
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With all of the current scandals in the US, who cares about the Virgin Islands?
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Old 06-01-2013, 02:51 PM   #14
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Do tell us about these scandals, why they are scandals, and what the history is behind them.

This ought to be entertaining as to why you think it is LESS important we potentially have a completely fraudulent election of a major political position compared to whatever you think may be going on.

@Scrappy: I've talked to a few people, the general consensus seems to be "What evidence he's posted is not indicative of what he claims", plus the sore loser bit I mentioned. Sure, tampering is extremely probable, but tampering is not fraud.
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Old 06-01-2013, 03:19 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by blaen99 View Post
@Scrappy: I've talked to a few people, the general consensus seems to be "What evidence he's posted is not indicative of what he claims", plus the sore loser bit I mentioned. Sure, tampering is extremely probable, but tampering is not fraud.
To clarify, you are showing them the petition link in my original post in this thread, right?

The petition link created by someone other than Warren Mosler and not just a blog post he made in 30 seconds suggesting something seemed off.


Right?
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Old 06-01-2013, 03:42 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrappy Jack View Post
To clarify, you are showing them the petition link in my original post in this thread, right?

The petition link created by someone other than Warren Mosler and not just a blog post he made in 30 seconds suggesting something seemed off.


Right?
Everything, actually.

I have to give the petition major credit, however. It's completely avoided alleging fraud, and rather focused on the facts they have at hand.

You also have to remember there is extensive evidence of this having happened in various GOP districts, and **** all was done.

@z31, so, tell us what you know about these scandals. Come on. Tell us more.
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