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-   -   The Republicans are playing a cynical political game with hugely high economic stakes (https://www.miataturbo.net/current-events-news-politics-77/republicans-playing-cynical-political-game-hugely-high-economic-stakes-58945/)

redfred18t 07-07-2011 03:10 PM

The Republicans are playing a cynical political game with hugely high economic stakes
 
http://www.economist.com/node/18928600


http://media.economist.com/images/im...709_ldc933.gif

IN THREE weeks, if there is no political deal, the American government will go into default. Not, one must pray, on its sovereign debt. But the country will have to stop paying someone: perhaps pensioners, or government suppliers, or soldiers. That would be damaging enough at a time of economic fragility. And the longer such a default went on, the greater the risk of provoking a genuine bond crisis would become.

There is no good economic reason why this should be happening. America’s net indebtedness is a perfectly affordable 65% of GDP, and throughout the past three years of recession and tepid recovery investors have been more than happy to go on lending to the federal government. The current problems, rather, are political. Under America’s elaborate separation of powers, Congress must authorise any extension of the debt ceiling, which now stands at $14.3 trillion. Back in May the government bumped up against that limit, but various accounting dodges have been used to keep funds flowing. It is now reckoned that these wheezes will be exhausted by August 2nd.

The House of Representatives, under Republican control as a result of last November’s mid-term elections, has balked at passing the necessary bill. That is perfectly reasonable: until recently the Republicans had been exercising their clear electoral mandate to hold the government of Barack Obama to account, insisting that they will not permit a higher debt ceiling until agreement is reached on wrenching cuts to public spending. Until they started to play hardball in this way, Mr Obama had been deplorably insouciant about the medium-term picture, repeatedly failing in his budgets and his state-of-the-union speeches to offer any path to a sustainable deficit. Under heavy Republican pressure, he has been forced to rethink.

Now, however, the Republicans are pushing things too far. Talks with the administration ground to a halt last month, despite an offer from the Democrats to cut at least $2 trillion and possibly much more out of the budget over the next ten years. Assuming that the recovery continues, that would be enough to get the deficit back to a prudent level. As The Economist went to press, Mr Obama seemed set to restart the talks.

The sticking-point is not on the spending side. It is because the vast majority of Republicans, driven on by the wilder-eyed members of their party and the cacophony of conservative media, are clinging to the position that not a single cent of deficit reduction must come from a higher tax take. This is economically illiterate and disgracefully cynical.

A gamble where you bet your country’s good name

This newspaper has a strong dislike of big government; we have long argued that the main way to right America’s finances is through spending cuts. But you cannot get there without any tax rises. In Britain, for instance, the coalition government aims to tame its deficit with a 3:1 ratio of cuts to hikes. America’s tax take is at its lowest level for decades: even Ronald Reagan raised taxes when he needed to do so.

And the closer you look, the more unprincipled the Republicans look. Earlier this year House Republicans produced a report noting that an 85%-15% split between spending cuts and tax rises was the average for successful fiscal consolidations, according to historical evidence. The White House is offering an 83%-17% split (hardly a huge distance) and a promise that none of the revenue increase will come from higher marginal rates, only from eliminating loopholes. If the Republicans were real tax reformers, they would seize this offer.

Both parties have in recent months been guilty of fiscal recklessness. Right now, though, the blame falls clearly on the Republicans. Independent voters should take note.



Braineack 07-07-2011 03:12 PM

You could tax the top 5% of americans 100% of their income and it wouldn't pay for this year's defecit.

increased taxes just means more revenue they'll use to spend it on something else they cannot afford, not including the defecit.


Let use local gov't as an example:



Reagan in 1988 cut 275 billion in taxes while adding 132 in other places, for a grand reduction of 143 billion.



It takes simple math to figure out you can't spend more than you can possibly take in, Americans can't print paper money and call it valuable.

rider384 07-07-2011 03:19 PM


Originally Posted by Braineack (Post 746278)
increased taxes just means more revenue they'll use to spend it on something else they cannot afford, not including the defecit.

True words from brainey.

hustler 07-07-2011 03:21 PM

Taxing the gainfully employed is a great idea for politicians. First of all, they are likely to pay the increase. Second, there are fewer high way earners so you don't have to worry about losing their votes. Third, Katrina Syndrome affected people vote.

hustler 07-07-2011 03:22 PM

Where is the break point? When will it be realized by the rest of the world that the USA's debt is no good? Can we hurry up and get there rather than keep talking about it? I'm trying to get ready for agriculture and our new lives of modesty and community.

Braineack 07-07-2011 03:23 PM

tax the Blacks!

Braineack 07-07-2011 03:23 PM

yeah i said it.

mgeoffriau 07-07-2011 03:25 PM

I'd love a default. It's going to happen sooner or later; the longer we delay it, the worse the correction is going to be.

hustler 07-07-2011 03:28 PM


Originally Posted by Braineack (Post 746283)
tax the Blacks!

Then who will vote for Hussein bin-Obamakahn?.

BTW, this author is clearly in love with Romney.

Braineack 07-07-2011 03:31 PM

Oh I thought taxing minority groups was the cool thing to do.

redfred18t 07-07-2011 03:46 PM


Originally Posted by Braineack (Post 746278)

increased taxes just means more revenue they'll use to spend it on something else they cannot afford, not including the defecit.


if you had a blanket 3-5% tax increase on every income level, and used it to close the deficit in combination with heavy spending cuts, I'd be fine with it.

JasonC SBB 07-07-2011 03:54 PM

OP: What do you think is a fair cost of gov't, as a % of GDP? The Fed Gov has always been around 30-32%, and States AFAIK are around 5%.

Should it be 40%? 50%? Or 15%?

Talk of how taxes should be distributed, are less important than the total cost of gov't as a 5 of GDP.

Braineack 07-07-2011 04:03 PM


Originally Posted by redfred18t (Post 746297)
if you had a blanket 3-5% tax increase on every income level, and used it to close the deficit in combination with heavy spending cuts, I'd be fine with it.


you'd need to start collecting taxes form 51% of the population first.

Scrappy Jack 07-07-2011 04:51 PM

That article, like most that deal with the issue of taxation, is - at best - a bit disingenuous as it fails to make clear the distinction between tax receipts and tax rates, seeming to use them interchangeably. They also seem to indicate that there is a direct correlation between rates and receipts. That is not always the case.

The Republicans are not against raising tax receipts. They are against net raises of tax rates.

fooger03 07-07-2011 05:00 PM

If low income earners would start paying their fair share, they might start realizing that there's a problem.

Braineack 07-07-2011 05:03 PM

my video pwns btw.

Faeflora 07-07-2011 05:25 PM



I vote for colonization of europe.

JasonC SBB 07-07-2011 08:54 PM


Originally Posted by braineack (Post 746340)
my video pwns btw.

+1

Madvillain 07-07-2011 09:04 PM

Would a flat tax be fair?

hustler 07-07-2011 09:06 PM

So when are we going to burn Boehner and McConnel at the stake? Seriously, why are these two weak ******s leading our party on Capitol Hill? If that "deal" they struck today gives away an income tax increase, that could very well be the end of their careers. I say "very well" because the Tea Partiers are too busy eating the asshole of epic historian Bachmann to pay attention to the bullshit of our leadership.

hustler 07-07-2011 09:08 PM

lol @ people with jobs so shitty they get to take the day off work to protest and demand taxing the people at work.

Braineack 07-07-2011 09:28 PM

(zack morris's phone)


Originally Posted by Madvillain
Would a flat tax be fair?

Actually yes. Works in hong kong.

fooger03 07-07-2011 09:56 PM

Flat tax would be an incentive for people to work harder, thereby increasing GDP.

An inverse tax would actually FORCE people to work harder.

You want the economy to do a complete 180 in 1 year? Here's how:
Change the tax rate to an inverse tax rate.
Completely eliminate federal minimum wage.
Completely eliminate entitlements for low/no wage earners.

If government forced you to earn your keep, you would too.

o Businesses would have an incentive to hire people because the price fix on labor would go away.
o "40 hour work week" would become complete bullshit, because the more you earn, the higher % you would get to keep
o If the first $100/week were taxed at 100%, the next $100 taxed at 50%, then 25%, 12.5%, and finally a final tax rate of 6.25% for everything above, consider the incentive of people to start and run a business even if they're only just breaking into the top tax bracket

$100/week = $0 take home
$200/week = $50
$300/week = $125
$400/week = $213.50
$500/week = $307.25
$600/week = $401.00

There are so many more hourly employees than there are millionaires in the US, taxing the first $5200/year that a person makes is absolutely genious.

The incentive to work harder to earn more in such an economy is huge - initially wage equilibriums will probably drop to around $5/hour, but the motivation for individuals to start businesses, go into the top tax bracket and far beyond it, and hire employees to help them make even more money will drastically raise the demand curve for labor, and have skilled individual employees easily breaking into the top tax bracket and beyond.

Individuals will have to either "get in" or "get out", and individuals will start voting for people who will cut government expenditures so they can eventually pay less in taxes. The highest income earners are still paying FAR MORE in income taxes than laborers too.

Remember when the United States was by far the fastest growing economy in the world? And then remember what happened when government decided to stop being pro-business, and instead started to be pro-worker?

Some people will die because they are economic leeches instead of being economic stimulants, but economically speaking, we don't need them anyways... Morally speaking, it will force the people that support these people to work more hours.

Braineack 07-08-2011 08:25 AM

just because I like videos:






if anything, watch the 2nd in its entirety

notable quote: "assuming youre getting a 10% pay hike, and when your boss only gives you a 4% pay increase you start crying and complaining that your pay was cut by 6%."

Braineack 07-08-2011 09:34 AM


Originally Posted by Madvillain (Post 746469)
Would a flat tax be fair?


more videosss:






so easy a 17 year old can understand:


JasonC SBB 07-08-2011 01:17 PM

Karl Marx invented the idea of the progressive tax.
And compulsory state education.
And central control of credit (central banking).

Braineack 07-08-2011 01:22 PM

And Marx also preached that the individual has no rights, that his life and work belong to the group and that the group may sacrifice him at its own whim to its own interests.

Braineack 07-08-2011 01:34 PM


Noteworthy in Congressman Long’s reply was the following statement he made about voting against the amendment proposed by U.S. Rep. Steve King (R-Iowa) that would have prohibited Pigford II funding:


“I voted against this amendment, along with several other Republicans, because stopping payments could increase the risk for additional litigation. I firmly believe I must take every step I can to curb costly litigation, which hurts businesses and job creation in this country. I also believe I must take every step to slow out-of-control government spending at every turn.“

Later in the reply, the auctioneer-turned-politician added this thought-provoking missive:

“The United States is facing an unprecedented budget shortfall which threatens the stability of our economy and the fiscal viability of future generations who will have to repay our debt. Families, businesses and especially the federal government all need to take caution to live within our means and prioritize how to best spend their money. We must look at all programs as we search for savings in tackling this extremely important challenge.”

[apparently] it’s worth spending $1.25 billion to prevent spending more money to litigate the case once described on the Washington Times’ editorial page as “Race hustlers are shaking down taxpayers for payoffs, and the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) is falling for the scam.”
:facepalm:

Madvillain 07-08-2011 05:07 PM

Thanks brain.

Flat tax = KISS
I love simplicity.
Simplicity = scam free and parasite free.

Braineack 07-11-2011 10:37 AM

Don't like videos?! How about Factoids!
  • Not one penny of U.S. debt has been repaid for 51 years: the last time US government funded debt actually decreased on a year-over-year basis was 1960;
  • 97% of today’s funded debt has been accumulated since August 1971 – the end of the Bretton Woods agreements when President Nixon took America off the gold standard;
  • President Obama for the budget through 2020 projected only a 2.5% interest rate on the federal debt, whereas the actual interest cost since 1980 has averaged 5.7%. If the 5.7% interest cost was used, the US deficit would increase by another $4.9 trillion by 2020;
  • President Obama projects 4.2% growth rate of the economy for the next 3 years. If growth is only 2.5%, deficits would increase by another $4 trillion by 2020;
  • The US government borrows 40-50 cents for every dollar it spends. A balanced budget without reducing the existing debt will require cutting government spending in half.
  • The current agreement to cut $2 trillion of spending over ten years, in exchange for raising the debt ceiling $2.4 trillion debt ceiling will only fund the Treasury until before the next presidential election.

nitrodann 07-11-2011 10:45 AM

Ausfag here, who are you guys borrowing from? I know its not us... haha Saudi arabia..?

Dann

Braineack 07-11-2011 10:56 AM

we borrow against ourselves and any country that wants to make money off our "spoiled blonde girl with a credit card" like spending.



The Federal government’s spendable tax revenue of approximately $170 billion per month; is roughly just enough to cover legally required Social Security / Medicare payments ($90 billion) and debt service (ranging from $10-40 billon per month) – and the most politically sensitive payments for military and unemployment ($40 billion).

The Treasury will need to borrow $20 trillion or ten times more than the proposed deficit reduction agreement over the next decade.

The American Social Welfarists promised that government bureaucrats could manage the economy so effectively we would avoid the pain of deleveraging the ludicrous amount of mortgage and credit card debt we ran up in the “good times”. Congress did put Welfare State on steroids, but much of the $5 trillion in deficit spending went to not-so-well-intentioned bailouts and subsidies for powerful cronies. With solvency of our nation now at risk and unemployment rising again, the Privateer suggests another path for our nation:

“Economic “miracles” (so-called) have happened before. The US emerged from a deep recession in 1920-21, because the government and the central bank did NOT interfere. Germany emerged from the actual physical rubble of WW II for exactly the same reason. So, to a lesser extent, did Japan. In all these cases, debts which could not be repaid were not held on life support by central banks, they were written off. In all these cases, creditors took very severe “haircuts” indeed while many debtors literally had to start again from scratch. In all these cases, the LACK of government impediments or government largesse meant that a recovery took place in a much shorter time frame than would otherwise have been the case.

Nothing demonstrates more clearly how the Social Welfare State is on life support than the fact America’s fastest growing cohort of the unemployed are federal, state and local government workers. Last month government cut a record 39,000 jobs; over the past eight months governments have cut a combined 238,000 positions. With federal, state and local governments all threatened with debt defaults and the public angry over failed spending; the American Social Welfare State is doomed.

The Demoncrat solution to the problem is like telling someone in horrendous debt, unable to make their bills each month and about to lose their home/car/etc, to get a better job (raise taxes/increase revenue) and a few more credit cards (increase debt limit and continue to shop at Barney's). All while suggesting and acknowledging that this is an unsubstainable approach.

fooger03 07-11-2011 11:44 AM


Originally Posted by Braineack (Post 747639)
The Demoncrat solution to the problem is like telling someone in horrendous debt, unable to make their bills each month and about to lose their home/car/etc, to get a better job (raise taxes/increase revenue) and a few more credit cards (increase debt limit and continue to shop at Barney's). All while suggesting and acknowledging that this is an unsubstainable approach.

My solution to the problem is like telling someone with horrendous debt to move in with their parents or find a couple of roommates, cancel the sunday paper, cable tv, cellular data package, FIoS, and landline phone, sell their 2009 Lincoln Navigator for probably less than they still owe on it in favor of an early 90s econobox, and entertain themselves with finding a second part-time job.

"PAIN AND SUFFERING" is the ONLY way out of debt. I don't care if you're an individual, a corporation, or the most powerful country in the world, it is not possible to get out of debt without pain and suffering.

Braineack 07-11-2011 11:50 AM

that's racist.

fooger03 07-11-2011 12:03 PM

Fuck EO "Equal Outcome"

It's time to adopt a different form of EO - "Equal Opportunity"

It's time we started discriminating based on economic productivity - it starts with eliminating compulsory minimum wage.

"You don't want to earn enough to survive? Then fuck you, go die"

"You want to have 18 children and not be able to afford them? Then fuck you, go die - your children can die too, no need to keep your genes in the gene pool."

"You want to be born handicapped, and you need $18,000/month worth of medical care to survive? Then go make $18,000/month doing something productive to pay for your life. Can't afford to live? Then fuck you, go die."

Paid into Social security all of your life, and now you're retired? Social security was designed to be indexed with average life expectancy, you might not be done earning your keep. Once you do surpass average life expectancy, you might end up taking a pay-cut if this country can't afford you - we'll try to pay for you though, because you did actually contribute your fair share toward your retirement - if you weren't on food stamps for the last 73 years.

Not near retirement now? Don't expect to get a social security check when you surpass average life expectancy. It's your own responsibility to make sure you can rest when you age - social security is not a retirement plan.

Adopt my plan, and you'll see that in just 6 months not only will our nations deficit become an almost overnight surplus, but our unemployment would drop to globally record lows, and our economic growth will shoot straight into the double digits.

Go ahead, someone tell me I'm wrong. Fuck you.

If government decided to do this, I would be happy to go find me a $5/hr job to help the turn around.

Braineack 07-11-2011 12:06 PM


Originally Posted by fooger03 (Post 747668)
If government decided to do this, I would be happy to go find me a $5/hr job to help the turn around.


$5 an hour is illegal. You cannot live off $5 an hour. So you must stay unemployed and living on welfare.

hustler 07-11-2011 12:06 PM


Originally Posted by Braineack (Post 747660)
that's racist.

Please state an ethnic affiliation so I may insult you where it counts. I strive for "equal opportunity" I'll advise you that today I've selected "Black Dutch" because when I was little my mother told me to never tell anyone about this.

hustler 07-11-2011 12:07 PM


Originally Posted by Braineack (Post 747671)
$5 an hour is illegal. You cannot live off $5 an hour. So you must stay unemployed and living on welfare while illegal Mexicans work for $5/hr.

fixed

Vashthestampede 07-11-2011 12:12 PM


Originally Posted by braineack (Post 746310)
you'd need to start collecting taxes form 51% of the population first.

exactly.

Scrappy Jack 07-12-2011 07:26 AM


Originally Posted by nitrodann (Post 747630)
Ausfag here, who are you guys borrowing from? I know its not us... haha Saudi arabia..?

Australia appears to have held over 13 billion USD worth of US sovereign debt as of April 2011.

China, Japan and the UK are the top three holders.

Link

olderguy 07-12-2011 09:20 AM


Originally Posted by Scrappy Jack (Post 748063)
Australia appears to have held over 13 billion USD worth of US sovereign debt as of April 2011.

China, Japan and the UK are the top three holders.

Link

And China is accelerating fastest. Maybe so they can foreclose??

olderguy 07-12-2011 09:22 AM


Originally Posted by fooger03 (Post 747657)
"PAIN AND SUFFERING" is the ONLY way out of debt. I don't care if you're an individual, a corporation, or the most powerful country in the world, it is not possible to get out of debt without pain and suffering.


This

mgeoffriau 07-12-2011 09:25 AM

No, no, no you can definitely borrow your way out of debt. It works. You just keep borrowing....and then you borrow some more to cover what you just borrowed. Just keep going like that, and whenever you think you've reached the end, borrow more to cover your current debt.

I see no problems with this plan.

Braineack 07-12-2011 09:26 AM

nope, none. I've done a good job dodging bill collectors so far...Hopefully I can hold out till the statute of limitations.

I'm doing it for the middle class.

Braineack 07-12-2011 12:39 PM


Originally Posted by Really Smart Economist
“We have not proposed a tax hike for the wealthy that would take effect in the middle of a recession. Even the proposals that have come out of Congress – which by the way were different from the proposals I put forward – still wouldn’t kick in until after the recession was over. ... the last thing you want to do is raise taxes in the middle of a recession because that would just suck up – take more demand out of the economy and put business further in a hole.”


Originally Posted by Same guy
Millions of entrepreneurs who have been waiting to invest in their businesses will receive new tax incentives to help them expand, buy new equipment or make upgrades – freeing up other money to hire new workers.


Guess who?!

PatrickB 07-12-2011 01:15 PM


Originally Posted by fooger03 (Post 747668)
Fuck EO "Equal Outcome"

It's time to adopt a different form of EO - "Equal Opportunity"

It's time we started discriminating based on economic productivity - it starts with eliminating compulsory minimum wage.

"You don't want to earn enough to survive? Then fuck you, go die"

"You want to have 18 children and not be able to afford them? Then fuck you, go die - your children can die too, no need to keep your genes in the gene pool."

"You want to be born handicapped, and you need $18,000/month worth of medical care to survive? Then go make $18,000/month doing something productive to pay for your life. Can't afford to live? Then fuck you, go die."

Paid into Social security all of your life, and now you're retired? Social security was designed to be indexed with average life expectancy, you might not be done earning your keep. Once you do surpass average life expectancy, you might end up taking a pay-cut if this country can't afford you - we'll try to pay for you though, because you did actually contribute your fair share toward your retirement - if you weren't on food stamps for the last 73 years.

Not near retirement now? Don't expect to get a social security check when you surpass average life expectancy. It's your own responsibility to make sure you can rest when you age - social security is not a retirement plan.

Adopt my plan, and you'll see that in just 6 months not only will our nations deficit become an almost overnight surplus, but our unemployment would drop to globally record lows, and our economic growth will shoot straight into the double digits.

Go ahead, someone tell me I'm wrong. Fuck you.

If government decided to do this, I would be happy to go find me a $5/hr job to help the turn around.

you are wrong. fuck you.

JasonC SBB 07-12-2011 02:14 PM


Originally Posted by fooger03
"PAIN AND SUFFERING" is the ONLY way out of debt. I don't care if you're an individual, a corporation, or the most powerful country in the world, it is not possible to get out of debt without pain and suffering.

DEFAULT is the best way out. Let the CREDITORS to the US Fed Gov take a haircut. If you loan money to a deadbeat, you DESERVE to lose your money.

The good thing about it is that everyone will then understand that gov't's are deadbeats and cannot be trusted with money. The slate will be wiped clean, and the gov't will have to run a realistic budget going forward, and creditors now will charge much higher interest rates when loaning to governments. This way there will be far less tendency to run up debt to begin with. And voters will understand that politicians over-promise entitlements they cannot deliver.

As for those dependent on the public trough - the gov't will go insolvent one way or another. It is inevitable. The accounting cannot be escaped. The only question is, in what form will this insolvency take? IOW, in what order will the sacred cows be gored?

I suspect the order will be:

- gov't contractors
- military (pull troops out of bases in 100 countries)
- gov't pension funds
- oldsters

Braineack 07-13-2011 12:32 PM

good read:


Political trench warfare reached a stalemate in Washington, DC this past week as the White House and GOP lawmakers continued to square off in the debt ceiling debate. President Obama put his thumb on the launch button of his party’s thermonuclear equivalent weapon, suggesting seniors may not get Social Security checks because of Republican intransigence in the talks. But beyond the simplistic jab and parry of tax hikes versus spending cuts, there’s something much more significant at stake: two vastly different visions of America’s future.

Despite Obama’s sudden head fake attempt to appear above the fray on the issue, he is not. Barack Obama is as far left as politicians come. He’s a product of his upbringing and radical influences, a culture that despises America’s capitalism and exceptionalism. In his America, one in every seven Americans is on food stamps, one in two households pays no federal taxes, and the wealth creators are vilified for their success.

It should be no surprise that Obama’s vision for America is to create as many wards of the state as he can, trapping more citizens in the utter despair of big government dependency. It is this kind of lefty mentality that drives his position on the debt ceiling debate. Tax hikes are the only solution in the mindset of the average liberal/Democrat/progressive/socialist/Marxist (you pick; they all mean the same thing).

In contrast, the GOP envisions an America where less government and more individual freedoms stimulate personal responsibility and independence. On the debt ceiling debate, spending cuts are a necessary (and commonsense) first order of business to control runaway debt and keep government in check. Tax hikes will only stifle business growth and stymie job creation.


I’ve got personal history with both visions, so I view this debate from a perspective most Americans don’t have. I grew up in the 1960s and 70s in the housing projects of Newark, NJ, in literally one of the most despairing environments one can imagine. It was big government-created misery, a mini-version of the welfare-state vision Obama has for the entire country.

My father was a blue-collar guy, and unlike most of my friends’ parents, he worked. The average “family” in the projects consisted of a single parent of several children on welfare, and because of that dependence, there was little incentive to work. My dad was severely disabled, partially paralyzed, yet he worked hard every day to support his family.



When I was a young boy I once asked him why he didn’t simply go on disability or welfare. He smiled and told me that once you accept government assistance, it’s hard to stop. He explained that government builds fences around people to trap them, but it is up to a man to build his own bridge out of poverty. After that I started to see the fences that surrounded the people who lived in the projects, fences made of welfare checks, food stamps, and other forms of assistance. They were content to live on just enough to survive, with no hope or promise of improving their lives.

My dad eventually built his bridge and pulled us out of poverty to a better life in a new city and state, and his lessons have stayed with me ever since. I grew into my conservative beliefs by example, seeing both the big government solution and the benefits of personal responsibility. There’s no comparison. Newark’s welfare culture was the most hopeless, bleak, and miserable existence I’ve ever experienced. The last thing I want to see is its expansion to the rest of America. Some days, I feel like we’re almost there.



On the debt ceiling debate, the choice is clear. We can allow Obama and the asylum-running lunatic Senate Democrats to push us closer to a total welfare state where we’re all penned inside fences we can’t see beyond, or we can allow the GOP to end the madness and help us all build bridges to a greater future. It starts with taking a stand. The time is now.




bridges > fences.

hustler 07-13-2011 01:46 PM

If taxes are increased, intelligent individuals like myself and my GF will leave the country. I presume others will do the same.

Faeflora 07-13-2011 02:15 PM


Originally Posted by hustler (Post 748768)
If taxes are increased, intelligent individuals like myself and my GF will leave the country. I presume others will do the same.

Why not just do like the most intelligent individuals do in the country and have a shitload of tax shelters?

Faeflora 07-13-2011 02:43 PM

For a lower effective tax rate.

jacob300zx 07-13-2011 03:59 PM


Originally Posted by mgeoffriau (Post 746286)
I'd love a default. It's going to happen sooner or later; the longer we delay it, the worse the correction is going to be.

+1

The longer we put this off the worse/longer the meltdown will be. I'm thinking my kids will never see the crazy credit filled glory days we saw as kids. They will probably be farmers if this shit keeps going.

sixshooter 07-13-2011 05:02 PM


Originally Posted by hustler (Post 746281)
Can we hurry up and get there rather than keep talking about it? I'm trying to get ready for agriculture and our new lives of modesty and community.

It is a glorious worker's paradise, comrade Hustler.

http://images.wikia.com/particracy/i...RiceFarmer.jpg


Originally Posted by fooger03 (Post 746339)
If low income earners would start paying their fair share, they might start realizing that there's a problem.

That's a beautiful thought in it's simplicity and succinctness. I want that on a bumper sticker. Would buy.

Originally Posted by hustler (Post 748768)
If taxes are increased, intelligent individuals like myself and my GF will leave the country. I presume others will do the same.

I've been trying to figure out where to possibly go. It would have been so much better if the people who wanted socialism so badly would have gone to one of the dozens of countries that was already socialist and left America for those who loved freedom. But socialists can't stand that. They want everyone to be cynical and miserable just like them.

hustler 07-13-2011 05:10 PM

Hong Kong is the place to be these days but I don't know how that works with China. We'd go to Australia.

JasonC SBB 07-13-2011 08:25 PM

There are 8 other countries which have more economic freedom than the USA as per the world liberty index. Australia is one of them, as are HK, NZ, Singapore, Switzerland, and Ireland IIRC.

redfred18t 07-13-2011 10:05 PM

New Zealand is expensive to live in and the salaries are a joke, singapore is ridiculously expensive, hell a low end vw polo is something absurd, like $100k there, switzerland they pretty much send you to the gallows for speeding. But seriously, they base your speeding ticket on your income ( http://www.worldcarfans.com/11008132...or-swedish-sls ). Australia bans video games and has other backwards rules. I mean, if I cant kill a hooker in a video game, I guess I'll have to to do IRL. Cant comment on HK or ireland but I bet HK is expensive like singapore is. Ireland would probably be nice, I think they are a haven for corporate headquarters.

As much as everyone cunts about the US, I dont see many people moving. And for the expats that move, good for them, because at least they had the balls to do something they believe in unlike all the people who throw blanket threats of moving yet never do.

JasonC SBB 07-13-2011 11:53 PM

That's why I said "economic freedom". Some places are high on economic freedom and low on individual freedom. Singapore is an extreme example. Actually housing is tiny and rents are high, and you probably wouldn't want to own a car, but their income tax is very low.

NA6C-Guy 07-14-2011 07:59 AM

Coming in late here, and haven't read most of the thread... my answer is almost always, "do away with career politicians". Some of these old fuckers who have been at it for their whole lives have lost touch with reality and aren't truly representatives of ours, and just don't give a fuck about us commoners or our country. No taxation without representation... hmph. A lot of them have made themselves millionaires by being in politics. There should be a maximum cap on years spent in government office, minimum age (for experience in the world, none of these 20 somethings in office with no experience) and pay should be no more than 110% of what you made in your previous year before entering politics. Take away the monetary incentive and cycle more common people through offices. I think that was kind of the way our country was envisioned.

Also, I would like to see flat tax, but I'm not holding my breath.

I will be the first to admit, I don't know much about politics, so I may be way off base to most of you, I don't know. Just to me seems like common people who are truly fed up with the way things are run would be the best people to turn things around. Not career politicians who have a group of buddies in every branch, cutting secret deals and scheming devious schemes as they often do. And never mind getting a commoner into office without fuck tons of money to back him up. Some make it, but it's mostly people with wealth who can afford to get into some form of political office. You have to have millions or tens of millions of dollars just to campaign to get into higher offices.

Braineack 07-14-2011 09:23 AM

Keep up the good work GOP:


US President Barack Obama stormed out of tense debt-limit talks Wednesday with his top Republican foes after declaring he was ready to stake his reelection on the outcome, a Republican aide said.

After Republican House Majority Leader Eric Cantor proposed to raise the US debt ceiling in more than one catch-all vote, Obama got "heated" and insisted on one comprehensive deal, said the aide, who requested anonymity.

Obama said he would not be "afraid to veto" a short-term approach or "defend it to the American people" and warned that a US debt default would amount to "a tax increase on every American," said the aide.

Obama said "I have reached the point where I say enough," and added "I've reached my limit. This may bring my presidency down, but I will not yield on this," according to the aide.

There was no immediate comment from the White House.

Poor baby, someone took away his lollipop!

fooger03 07-14-2011 09:31 AM


Originally Posted by Braineack (Post 749084)
Keep up the good work GOP:




Poor baby, someone took away his lollipop!

Being president must be HARD WORK when you don't have party rule. "Oh my god, I can't control the actions of congress - I'm supposed to have power over them, right? Guess I'll just throw a hissy fit"

The mere fact that a single party actually controlled not only both houses of congress, but also two branches of our federal government, is fundamentally against the principles of our federal government in the first place.


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