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Old 12-08-2013, 10:55 AM   #1
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Default 2003 Shinsen build

I recently picked up a 2003 Sinshen, my 5th Miata. It's got 72k, was a one owner car, dealer serviced and very clean. The front end has been painted, but no damages to subframe or apron so it looked to be a minor incident. So far, I've been working on the basics- recovered the seats with leather, ordered a roll bar, and am replacing the top with new Robbins cloth. Timing belt, water pump and all associated seals also in the works.

The suspension needs some attention (stock shocks are done) and I'm 80% sold on the Vmax XXtreme. For the $$, seems like a satisfactory option.

Now is where I start sounding crazy.

I've ordered a Factory Five 818 but it won't be here until 10/14. Ran into a screaming deal on a Vette motor and snatched it up, thinking I would drop it into the Miata but further research showed it would be a massive undertaking in terms of both time and cost. Sold the motor and decided to go turbo.

I don't want to spend a ton of $$. All in, $4000? I have another project around the corner.
Car will be 90% street driven
Uncomfortable with "tuning"... all the associated discussion makes my head hertz.
Looking for most reliable HP I can get in this price range.

I have to be honest, the Voodoo package at FM looks appealing. I know it's lazy, but think I could live with 190hp. I've read enough here to know it's not optimal.

Spend $1500 on a used setup and $650(?) for a built MSPNP like the ones sold here?

Spend $3500 on the FM setup?

Thoughts? Here are some pics.





Attached Thumbnails
2003 Shinsen build-null_zps66b22497.jpg   2003 Shinsen build-null_zps5942204d.jpg   2003 Shinsen build-null_zpsf34220e3.jpg   2003 Shinsen build-null_zpsb88796d9.jpg   2003 Shinsen build-null_zps8908c738.jpg  

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Old 12-08-2013, 01:03 PM   #2
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I always thought the blue seats were the coolest part of the shinsen. :(
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Old 12-08-2013, 01:44 PM   #3
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If I was in your situation and had to buy new, it would be an FM non-electronics kit, add Megasquirt some rx8 injectors and wideband then have someone tune it for me.

Or do something similar using used parts from the classifieds like you mentioned.

Definitely wouldn't go with a doodoo box. Its such a waste
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Old 12-08-2013, 02:04 PM   #4
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Nice job on the seats, where did you get the leather?

I'm working with a friend right now on an LSx swap and I'd agree with your assessment

Turbo & ECU for under 4k is do-able, but to keep the VVT in your NB2 I'm not sure the MSPNP2 will get the job done. You may want t get in touch with Reverant for an MS3 Basic. FM makes a solid proven product on the hardware side, but we generally don't recommend the VooDoo box.

Check this:

$2,995* = FM2 "no electronics” kit = Flyin' Miata : Turbochargers : Kits without ECU : 2003-05 FM turbo kit - no electronics

* Call FM and have them remove the intercooler from the kit. This will save you some cash as its expensive. You can use that savings to buy a set of injectors and a cheaper intercooler from eBay. Be sure to keep the silicone charge pipes though, those are awesomeness.

$750* = MSLabs MS3 Basic https://www.miataturbo.net/ms-labs-m...ms-labs-69930/

* That's from memory, contact Rev directly for pricing.

$200* = MTX-L wideband MTX-L Wideband O2 Digital Air/fuel Ratio Gauge

* or $150 from Amazon

You will also need a set of injectors. Look for something EV14 and love life. Injector Dynamics or Fuel Injector Clinic, 650/725cc for around $300 +/- are proven products. Or RX8 injectors for even mor savings.

I've basically been hoarding used FM parts and things for the past 2 years to do exactly as I described above. This combination should yield something like 250hp and be perfectly fine for average hooliganism and prove to be durable and reliable enough for daily duity. That's my goal anyway

Edit: Damn 18psi beat me to it! I'm still not that fast typing on this tablet yet
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Old 12-08-2013, 06:52 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EO2K View Post

$2,995* = FM2 "no electronics” kit = Flyin' Miata : Turbochargers : Kits without ECU : 2003-05 FM turbo kit - no electronics

* Call FM and have them remove the intercooler from the kit. This will save you some cash as its expensive. You can use that savings to buy a set of injectors and a cheaper intercooler from eBay. Be sure to keep the silicone charge pipes though, those are awesomeness.

$750* = MSLabs MS3 Basic https://www.miataturbo.net/ms-labs-m...ms-labs-69930/

* That's from memory, contact Rev directly for pricing.

$200* = MTX-L wideband MTX-L Wideband O2 Digital Air/fuel Ratio Gauge

* or $150 from Amazon

You will also need a set of injectors. Look for something EV14 and love life. Injector Dynamics or Fuel Injector Clinic, 650/725cc for around $300 +/- are proven products. Or RX8 injectors for even mor savings.

I've basically been hoarding used FM parts and things for the past 2 years to do exactly as I described above. This combination should yield something like 250hp and be perfectly fine for average hooliganism and prove to be durable and reliable enough for daily duity. That's my goal anyway

Edit: Damn 18psi beat me to it! I'm still not that fast typing on this tablet yet
This will likely be my plan on my next Miata build which will likely be an NB2. There's still a chance I might do a DIY kit but probably not. The FM2 kit just seems really strong.

Also: Thanks so much for posting that bit about asking FM to remove the intercooler!! that was one of my bigger holdups about the FM kit, I know they're charging a lot for it and it's a small intercooler. I've also had a great experience with the eBay intercoolers so I would prefer to go that route. So ID1000's (why not, right?), eBay IC, and MS.

Am I correct in assuming then that all this could be done for $4k plus tuning? Oh, and a clutch. Mustn't leave that out. Probably 949 ceramic just to be safe, so call it another $400. Still not bad. Erm, should probably finish off the rest of the exhaust too. OK so $5k all in plus labor and tuning.
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Old 12-08-2013, 07:17 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corey View Post
I always thought the blue seats were the coolest part of the shinsen. :(
Yes and no. Mine were no prize. Based on the seat wear and overall lean to the left I think the woman who owed my car squeezed in.

The seat covers are Katzskin, and I tried to match the Shinsen color as closely as possible.

Job is a pita, but not as bad the 2nd time.


Thanks for the advise. Lots of Begi vs FM stuff... hard to know which way to go. They both have quality products and support. I'l see what the No electronic kit runs w/o the IC. Great idea. Already discussing the MS3.
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Old 12-08-2013, 08:00 PM   #7
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You also might consider getting a price for the FM no electronics kit minus the IC and minus the turbo. The 2560 is an excellent turbo but they charge about $1000 for it. You'd still probably hit around 225whp using a $100 sr20 T25. Sure, it will be used and journal bearing, but it's a good value.
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Old 12-08-2013, 08:07 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedCarmel View Post
You also might consider getting a price for the FM no electronics kit minus the IC and minus the turbo. The 2560 is an excellent turbo but they charge about $1000 for it. You'd still probably hit around 225whp using a $100 sr20 T25. Sure, it will be used and journal bearing, but it's a good value.
So at that point you're paying for piping, feed and return lines, a downpipe and manifold, and a bypass valve? Seems like at that point you might as well go DIY no?
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Old 12-08-2013, 08:39 PM   #9
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There's a lot of little things that take time and research to find (ie turbo oil feed line fittings, stage 8 hardware, IC pipes and t-bolt clamps, etc). Totally doable, of course, but if you just want the parts to show up at your door without spending a lot of research time it might be worth it to pay FM for the convienence.

I'm just saying if you want to save some money over their normal kit it's easy to pick up an eBay IC and used T2 turbo that's no sweat to substitute into the FM kit. That being said I have no idea how much it would save since I've never gotten a quote for what I described.
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Old 12-08-2013, 11:38 PM   #10
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I <3 this thread. Learning a ton.

Would the FM downpipe meant for the 2560 bolt right up to the SR20? I know the SR20 isn't ideal but on a stock 10:1 VVT motor I would think it would work pretty nicely.

I still think I'll go 2560 though. After riding in (Erat) Dillon's car I fell in love with the powerband and sound of the 2560 on the FM manifold with the FM 2.5" exhaust. So sweet.
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Old 12-09-2013, 12:06 AM   #11
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Yup, I'm using that turbo with FM cast manifold and FM 2.5" downpipe. The sr20 uses the same flange as the 2554, 2560 etc.

Edit: this thread might make it more clear. https://www.miataturbo.net/diy-turbo-discussion-14/there-difference-t2-t25-t28-flange-58835/?styleid=20
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Old 12-09-2013, 12:09 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedCarmel View Post
Yup, I'm using that turbo with FM cast manifold and FM 2.5" downpipe. The sr20 uses the same flange as the 2554, 2560 etc.
Off to re-read your build thread
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Old 12-09-2013, 01:56 AM   #13
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I'd only look at the SR20/2554 as a cost savings if you absolutely had to. As in ”im using this turbo because I need to put cash into the ECU part of my build” kind of cost savings. The 2560 can still claw at 300hp (Paul did it) if you decide to get crazy and it'll be ”closer” to actually being efficient at 14psi than the SR20/2554 will be. ("Closer" and "efficient" being relative terms in this case.) The VVT NB2 runs 10:1 comp ratio, and that's a bit high for a turbo car. You definitely want your tune squared away and will want a turbo that isn't going to be dumping a crap load of heat along with that boost. Response is not going to be an issue on the T25 frame either way, so you might as well get then good stuff from the start. I see no reason to start with something you know you will have to upgrade in the future. Cut back on hookers and blow for a few months and save to get what you want, rather than buy it twice.

Do some reading here on the forum, no one is happy with 200~225hp for long
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Old 12-09-2013, 02:52 AM   #14
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I don't think the 2560 is very comfortable at 300, and I definitely don't think it will do it on a basic fm setup. the rare occasions you see them doing 300 they're either pushed to the very limit, or the setup is extremely efficient (in pauls case ABSURDflow hot parts).

it will do a healthy 250-270 though and have a wonderful powerband that is very street friendly

having tuned a fm 2560 setup on pump gas and 15psi, I gotta tell you - its great and I loved it. the guy enjoyed it for years without touching anything and it ran like a champ. I think 240whp is where we ended up (fearing crappy ca 91oct and stock motor I kept the tune conservative)

It was basically what me and EO2K suggested: fm no electronics kit + ms + wideband + injectors + exhaust
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Old 12-09-2013, 03:22 AM   #15
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Totally agree. I think for me personally I'll go with the 2560. As for the OP, take your pick! This has been an extremely educational thread for me, I hope it has been for you too and that it wasn't seen as a thread jack

Last edited by turbofan; 12-09-2013 at 03:06 PM. Reason: speeling
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Old 12-09-2013, 03:02 PM   #16
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Definately not a high jack. I'm reading all I can about the Xede, Hydra and MS3. Looks like the MS3 with 450cc injectors and 10ish lbs of boost will make a entertaining reliable car without breaking the bank.
I'll likely get all the bit before installing any of them.

Ordering suspension today. By the end of next week she'll be ready for some power.
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Old 12-09-2013, 03:08 PM   #17
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Yeah get some ev14's, wideband, and MS3 and start learning. Then when you know what you're doing install the boost. That's a very solid plan
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