2005 speed motor in a 96NA?
 

Ok here is my situation. A buddy of mine has a motor out of a 2005 speed mx-5, factory turbo. I am trying to find out how hard the swap is going to be and since it originally was bolted up to a 6speed if it should bolt up to a 5speed without a problem. I dont suppose there should be too many issues as they are both 1.8's.

Ok here are the specs of the motor:
2005 mx-5 factory turbo motor
45k on motor
valve cover to oil pan
turbo and manifold included
Injectors
Intake manifold, TB etc.
motor has a spun rod bearing that needs to be replaced

price:$400
My main goal is just to boost my car here is what I think i will need added to the list
engine management
intercooler and piping
downpipe

so what do you guys think about my situation and what should i do? I think the price is very fair

this has never been posted before.

Bro check out my rod.
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g9...3091445-00.jpg

It won't fit.
__________________
Best Car Insurance | Auto Protection Today | FREE Trade-In Quote

On a serious note: this shit has been posted before many times. Its virtually a 99-00 motor that would swap in like any other NB motor.You'll be having serious problems with is the wiring. Something about the MSM wiring/ecu being completely different from the regular miata's.

So get that motor, sell the head to make some of your money back, throw on your head and it will work that way. Though if your shit is running properly I'd just DIY turbo that. And not bother with all this bullshit.

Whats wrong with the head from this model engine?
And my motor has a nasty oil leak and was planning on a rebuild soon anyways.
Why are people saying it won't fit? They are both 1.8 blocks
any advantages to this intake manifold? I have researched on trying to find what parts are interchangeable . If anyone can refer a link I would appreciate it

Read my post. Its not the head you need to be worrying about.

I've seen this question many times, but can't find much on a search. You can try here:

Mazda-speed.com - Index

or here:

http://forum.miata.net/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=38

. . .so you can find out what a PITA it is to rewire a non Mazdaspeed Miata to use a MSM engine, only to realize how crappy the factory MSM engine management is anyways. The intake is a pile of crap too and so is the turbo.
The head on MSMs is different. It uses a COP setup similar to 01-05s but no VVT.

Just rebuild what you have. Unless you've got a ton of time and no money, but the swap can be done. It's just stupid to do.


One more link: http://www.miataclubofhawaii.com/for...ead.php?t=2138

MSM uses a BP4W head like on the 99-00 with a different valve cover to fit the COPS.

So put a '96 head on (essentially) a '99 engine? Isn't that a step in the wrong direction?

Couldn't he swap some electrics around IOT keep the better-flowing head?

lord have mercy. You guys is skeered of everything.

That is a really cheap nb motor period. The turbo is junk like everyone has been saying. If you don't mind wiring you could get it to run full standalone but it wont be the simplest thing in the world.

Now that I understand the thread title I'm here to reply. (200 5speed motor wut?)

I looked at doing a full MSM engine/tranny/turbo swap into my '92 last year when I was replacing the motor. I found a decent setup for $1800...which considering it included the 6speed, a 1.8L motor AND all the turbo components would have been a good deal.

The hardware fits in just fine. In my case I would have needed Flyin' Miatas 1.8L swap kit, but you won't. The electrical wiring will be a nightmare. It has a different ECU...different ignition etc. You do all that and you're still running around with the MSM turbo kit. While I've recently gained respectly for the Mazdaspeed setup due to codystrife's straight up swap and leatherface24's amazing transformation of his MSM...you can easily do something equivalent or better with your current setup.

There is very little that is different about the motor. No, there is no advantage to the intake manifold. I believe the intake cam is *slightly different. You can just as easily bolt up the turbo parts to any other 1.8L. Of course then you have to look at engine management anyhow.

If you're getting a steal and want to tackle lots of wiring and diagnosis you can have an upgradeable OEM setup with decent headroom. (Leatherface is well over 200whp). If you have money for a decent kit and an ECU then do it yourself and have more headroom...less headaches. Honestly I would not do all that work to still be stuck with the shitty MSM ECU.

EDIT:

The MSM tranny IS stronger and worth swapping over. Otherwise all the little things Mazda did to make the MSM a worthwhile package are in the chassis and would take a year to swap over. Your motor is just as good save the head, and for the hassle you can get better turbo parts and better engine management. Really depends on your goals though.

Here's a success story:

Mark Brandt and his 1995 Mazdaspeed

I'd email this guy. He made it sound easy.

Assuming the entire motor's not trashed from the spun bearing, this is an easy thing to do, barely more complicated than any other motor swap. I believe you'll be SOL on the downpipe and will need to have something custom built. BEGi can probably help you out, since they built one for Mark's car.

I would probably take the known good 96 block, and bolt on the MSM head and turbo goodies. Again, assuming the cyl head isn't trashed.

well I spoke to the guy a few minutes ago and hes really hurting for money so i think i can get it a little cheaper. only problem thats coming up is the ecu, he doesnt have it. so i will have to rely on my stock ecu . I will have to rely on a wideband and piggy back untill i can come up with some more money. If the only reason for not using the msm head is the cop setup i was planning on doing that anyways with toyota coils. I just think the wiring is going to be pretty difficult. I am not sure how enthusiastic i am to swapping a whole motor and doing days of wiring....
My other option was to replace a few gaskets and simply turbo my motor. I already have 7m injectors and an evo intercooler.

How the hell are you expecting to make your stock ecu control the MSM wiring/head?

emailed

the wiring can not be very different , not enough to where my ecu can not control it. As for the turbo and AFR a descent piggy back and tune can control that. If there is something you know about the msm motor and the wiring please inform me. It would be very much appreciated.

Yes it can and no it won't

Why the hell would you just assume that? Just cause they're both miata's they can't be TOO much different?:loser:

instead of giving short non informative statements. Why not help? what all is different to where my ecu can not control it?
block same just most likely extend/alter connectors
ignition = doing the toyota cop setup

so what else?

why dont you try explaining the differences mr.Information:fawk:

I'm not going to waste my time researching specifics on something I don't even care about to spoon feed this shit to you. In fact, almost no one here has done this swap, so its rare to say the least. Maybe a few, but I don't even know about them.

The msm ecu is completely different from even other NBs. NB ecu's and the way they control the alternator, ac, and a few other things is different from the way NA's do it. Lots of people have commented on how much of a nightmare the MSM ecu is, and how different everything is between msm ecu/wiring and other miata's.

What makes you think an NA ecu with bandaids or a piggyback will just magically be able to controll an MSM engine?

You want to be billy badass and pull off this swap and prove us all wrong I have no problems with that at all.
In fact that would be cool to read.

So go ahead, do it.
I'll stop posting and watch your awesome progress.

obviously foul language is not monitored on this forum.
Internet is serious business Mr.Ethug

What I am saying is that you can't just crimp a few new wire ends on to your existing harness and have it control the new engine sensors. The wiring on the engine is completely different. They have a different ignition and timing system than the NA ecu can understand. If you really want to do this swap, you need to have a harness and ecu from a mazdaspeed.

The easiest thing to do would be to just get a stand alone ECU and re wire the engine your self. At least, thats what I would do. It really would not be that hard, I did most of the FSAE car myself last year. Plus, you would have a nice ECU setup.

Whether you will listen to me or not... :facepalm:

What I would do if I were you, is first realize that these guys have been doing this a while. Listen to them. Also realize that when you are a newb, you will sound retarded to the rest of the members whether you are or not.

Now on the swap, just know that it will be a project that will cost you some money and sweat. I personally would do it using a stand alone ecu. That will be the most expensive part. You will then have a motor that you can build on in the future. The new ecu will let you go from mild to wild

getting back to the real question, why the hell would you swap a 1.8bp for another one with a spun bearing?

Serious question: Do you understand the difference between the OBD systems from your OBDII '96 car and an engine from a 2005? Do you have any experience tuning a standalone ECU or in getting "bastardized" combinations to work well?

I ask because it seems like you don't (no offense). Just one sensor different between the old and new engines will completely baffle your car's ECU and give you all kinds of trouble getting the thing to run, or even start. Us standalone guys can tell you the havoc a bad sensor can have on how a car runs. This is why the standalone recommendation is a good one, you can tell it what sort of sensor it's reading and it can sort it out.

IIWY I'd stop looking here for in-depth advice on the swap, since most of us bolted turbos onto previously n/a engines. If you're serious about the swap just correspond with the guy who's already done it. OTOH, there isn't much difference between the MS engine and the one you already have, so ask yourself if you really need the MS engine, or if you're just after the turbo. Seems to me you're going about it the hard way, I'd love to see you prove me wrong though.

WELLLL>....

Now that you don't have an ECU it's really simple.

Get a MS...wire it up to the MSM motor, basically building your own harness. Rely on tons of research and non-existant help since noone had likely done it before...and call us back in a year when you're done.

It could be kickass...but it will be hard...and that's pretty much your ONLY choice.

^^^THIS


Unless you really want to do it for the learning experience and the unique factor...this project can oh so easily end in FAIL when there are much easier options out there for just a little more money. I say more money, but it will end up costing less in parts you have to find, fabricate, and spend your time researching and diagnosing.

I wouldn't consider this a "budget" route at all. This is the job of a retired electrical engineer with too much time on his hands working on his 3rd project car which his wife won't let him pour too much money into...but he still wants it to be kickass.

Wow.. really people, this isn't that hard..*unless I am brain dead from working to hard lately*

It be the same has if you do the swap for a 1.8 to a 1.6. Since the MSM motor is basically just a 99-00 motor with a turbo. All you to do is swap ever sensor from your 96 motor to the MSM motor, and I mean ever. Like Koto said any sensor from the 99+ could cause the 96 ecu to go nuts. You going to have to remove the cap on the back of the motor to install your CAS, since the 99+ motors don't use the CAS anymore. I can't remember if the MSM have a VICS or not. The 96 ECU will not be able to control the VICS at all, so you have to run it just open always.

Hi, Chris –



You should read some of the threads that deal with fitting a ’99 or ’00 head to an NA Miata. You’ll have to deal with those issues, like turning the fuel rail into a return-type system. You may need to buy an earlier NB fuel rail – I already had a ’99 head on my car, so when I discovered the MSM fuel rail didn’t leave room for the NA fuel pressure regulator I already had a solution.



There aren’t any significant wiring issues. If you do this the sane way, you will swap over all of the sensors and the throttle body from your ’96 motor. You DO NOT want a Mazdaspeed ECU, unless someone gave you the ECU, the wiring and installed it all for you. That would be a huge undertaking, and the ECU has lots of safeguards that make it hard to get good power out of an MSM.



You will need some sort of higher volume fueling – IMHO nothing short of a replacement ecu is acceptable long term, but there are people happy with piggybacks. Keep your local smog test requirements in mind. I don’t think any of the aftermarket ECUs can talk to the smog test computer and pass the test used here in Washington state, with the possible exception of the FM-Link specific for the 96 and 97 cars. You could use a 94 thru 95 FM-Link by modifying your wiring harness, but it won’t talk OBDII to the smog test computer. FM sold a small number of plug-n-play FM-Links for your year and they have some very cool features. Whatever ecu you decide on will likely have a control circuit for a boost solenoid. Many take over an unused circuit in the wiring harness, but there will be some custom wiring required to run the boost solenoid. You’ll want to replace the MSM unit – it doesn’t seem to be particularly reliable.



Intake system – Going with an aftermarket ECU that uses manifold pressure instead of an air flow meter gives you more latitude in solving this. I’m using the FM one piece MSM intake, but it attaches to the MSM chassis brace. The BEGi intake won’t fit – it uses the area of the headlight motor.



MSM downpipes will physically fit your car, but the outlet flange location is nothing like your present exhaust. Any muffler shop should be able to adapt your current exhaust to the downpipe.



Intercooler & piping – too many options to be specific, but do NOT buy a big MSM intercooler if you have air conditioning. I had to change a ton of the a/c system to fit a used FM MSM intercooler. It would have been far easier to have bought an i/c designed to fit into an NA Miata.



There is an oil separator that bolts to the chassis brace and drains back into the oil pan on the intake side of the motor. While not essential, you will need to block off the return and provide a catch tank if you didn’t get this, and I suspect you did not.



Now, back to the MSM engine you can buy. A spun rod bearing should not result in damage to the cam bearings, but to be safe you should pull the cam cover off, remove both cams and look at the bearing surface machined into the head. If these are heavily scored the head is toast and the project probably makes no sense. I think they will be okay – the supply of oil to the cam is taken from upstream of the rod bearings, but if the car was run for a long time with the rod bearing slowly disintegrating, the head could be damaged.



If your engine is in good shape, you could try using your short block with the rest of the MSM engine. I’m fairly sure that your engine has the oil and water supply ports for the turbo, but they are plugged. My ’95 block has them. I think they stopped machining the ports in ’99, then did a short run of blocks for the MSM turbo.



Your ’96 clutch will not hold up. You may need a thicker radiator, too.



I threw a lot of info at you. Feel free to ask more questions if I didn’t go into enough detail.

Good info and good research.

This thread has now gone from uneducated conjecture to a valuable resource. Respect man.

NOTE:

This is the point I was trying to make earlier:

Your original idea of migrating EVERYTHING MSM would have stunk.

After recieving this response I recieved a phone call from my buddy he said i can now have everything for $250
so full msm engine with spun rod bearing
spare 1.8 motor with a supposid crank pulley problem

At this price even if i just took the turbo manifold off and put it on my 1.8 it might be worth it for the money. But now I need to figure out if the manifold will fit since both heads are different.

do a search you ------.

The only reason this thread isn't a waste of space is because that dude was nice enough to get back to you. Anything MSM is junk turbo-wise.

Why don't you GTFO?

Dude's actually doing research and posting his findings. That's contributing...something I haven't seen you do in a while.

3 posts up asshat

Because the entire premise of this thread is retarded. The $250 or whatever he ends up spending on two partially broken motors is better spent somewhere else. I'm going to go post a thread about buying a broken MZR to swap into my NA brb

If you say so hoss.

I'm going to start pointing out your worthless posts.

I don't think the premise is retarded since I've found myself in the same position within the last year.

I am going to have to agree with gospeed81. This has turned into a worthwhile thead.

For the money, it is worth the try. He will get some valuable experience, and learn something.

Ease up on the newbs.

And it will get him some spare parts, too. Just think - 2 crankshafts, 2 sets of different camshafts (possibly usable for exinthake or some other mod), many lifters (solid / hydraulic?), springs, not to mention lower CR pistons from ms engine and possibly stronger rods. Injectors (good for 200 hp i assume). Intake manifold, which maybe has no vics and suits better for turbo application. And exhaust manifolds, turbo one being (I simply guess from my experience) shorter and maybe possibility of buying bolt on adapter plate to mate T25 flanged turbos.

I would not even ask someone if all this stuff is worth 250$. I'd call that guy, arrange a meeting in the shortest imaginable period and take a van to bring all this stuff home. I'd keep what I would think I'll need some day and I'd sell the rest of parts.

Dude, buy that megaton of shit and then ask questions. Include photos, part codes, etc - then this thread will grow tu a very nice pile of ms related information ;) And everyone interested will benefit from it.

Have him junk the car and sell me the transmission. I'll pay more for the transmission than you're paying for the motor :P I also have an 03 engine I can sell him :)

The mani is a pile of poo, I would just sell some stuff and get a BEGI or FM or absurdflow mani.

And seriously consider running a stand alone ECU man, it would be able to support anything you put on it in the future, and if you do your own wiring, diagnosing things will be much easier!

Nominated for Worst Thread. Geezus you guys are some lame fucks.

If I wanted to turbo a car for dirt dirt cheap, I'd snap up the MSM assembly, bolt it to my good NA8 block, and rock out. Turbo setup with a NB head complete for under $1500, including gracious allowances to BEGi for a downpipe and DIYAutotune for a MS.

OP, part of the reason for the retardation here is your lack of using the search button. Putting a MSM motor or turbo into a non-MSM miata has been accomplished multiple times over.

For $250 you can make your money back in parts if you change your mind.

Perhaps consider Pm'ing 95MSM on the M-S Forum as well.
But don't go reposting this sort of thread, it gets annoying.

Did he wreck his car? I'd like some bits off it :-)

I hope you're going standalone, everyone has told you you should, but you didn't mention it yet.. but there are a good number of different sensors on the MSM, not the least of which pertain to boost control and ignition. If you look at, say, FM's Hydra, you'll notice there is a specific unit to the 04-05 MSM, so if the differences are significant enough they have to make wiring changes on that, well, good luck doing it on your own..

I would say you could expect reasonable power with this. Most people on the forum make ~200 with bolt-ons, and that's perfectly fine. Honestly, after that you're better off ditching the manifold/turbo and moving on. One or two fella's have done 240-250 with upgraded stock turbos, but that's beyond the point of diminishing returns IMO, gee, ask me how I know.

figured i would update this, I'm doing the swap . The MSM motor will be going in the car really soon. I've done a ton of research and looking at the electrical part. Its not going to be difficult by any means. Since I didnt get the MSM coil packs i'm going to test fit some toyota coils tomorrow.
here is a link to my build thread:
turbo miata drift build - TennSpeed

Oh and I ended up getting the complete motor for $50

Well that's certainly worth the hassle then.