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Old 07-13-2007, 06:04 PM   #1
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Default 305cc? fuel pressure? I'm new to this

Ok, well I have just recently ordered a voodoo II system from FM (I have my reasons please don't attack me with diy banter) but I am already thinking about how I can tweak that setup.

From what I understand the biggest limiting factor for boost with any setup is usually fuel, or the lack of it (that is without WI or something along those lines). So that got me thinking and reading the diy faq.

First of all, whats the stock fuel pressure with no FMU or anything like that? (for the calculator on the rc site)

What I'm thinking about is picking up some 305cc injectors, fuel pump, and a FMU if needed and using those along with the bipes i just picked up to try and run more boost than the stock kit runs (~8psi?).

Does this sound like an idea that would work? It seems to be a relatively cheap solution (~$260) compared to a full ems and new 550's, and from what I can tell it is about the most you can do with the stock ecu in place.

What is the max amount of boost that I could run with 305's and no FMU or upgraded pump? Should I be trying to squeeze out all the power I can from my stock 1.8 injectors first?

Help with these questions will be much appreciated.
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Old 07-13-2007, 09:43 PM   #2
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Will 310cc injectors work with the stock ecu, or is 305 the max on a 97?

I hope this is in the correct section.
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Old 07-14-2007, 01:23 AM   #3
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Hey, someone else turboing a '97! Too bad you aren't using an emanage, I could really use some help on wiring it. Anyways, the stock fuel pressure is 43.5psi.

I've read that the stock fuel pump can put out enough fuel for 80psi at the limit. I am unfamiliar with the VooDoo II, but looking at FM's site, it just adds more fuel based on manifold pressure and o2 sensor readings, so I'd guess that it would handle more boost + bigger injectors to a certain point, just like any piggyback.

Bigger injectors are a must, FMU a maybe, depending on the power you want. See what the RC calculator tells you when you put in your power goals and play with the fuel pressure. FWIW, I plan on running 10psi boost with 380cc injectors and a vortech 6:1 FMU.

Someone else chime in, as I'm still learning all of this myself.
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Old 07-14-2007, 01:52 AM   #4
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Well I just bought some 305cc injectors to use with the voodoo box and stock ecu so I'll see how those help. I was looking at around 200whp, and the more the merrier!

(messiahx, do you plan on running 380cc's with a piggyback? doesn't the stock maf cause some sort of idle problems with injectors of that size? Or am I misunderstanding what I have read, if so I'm an idiot and just wasted my $$ on 305's when I could have gone bigger.)

From the calculator it seems that a FMU will be needed to get to that kind of power, although that seems odd as SoO sPeC Mx5 is running a voodoo II with just bipes and a new pump and making near as makes no difference 200whp. So I would think that 305cc's would easily get me to where I want to be, as he still has the stock fuel pressure regulator to my knowledge, so he should be running about the stock fuel pressures.

But other ideas/input will be greatly appreciated.
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Old 07-14-2007, 08:55 AM   #5
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dude you could have bought my 310's and run them just fine. the stock injectors/pump as you run them are 265 cc/min so you could run 360's or so but it might get a little trickey with no EMB or a tweakable air meter like we have on the 1.6's. the 305's should be easy to use and you can buy a cheap obx rrfpr if you like hell 30$ and i will sell you mine 12-1 ratio works great. The voodoo is a fuel adder that drives up your dutycycle etc to get the desired mixture I am not very familiar with it but if you where to message Cjernigan he can tell you alot about it, as the previus owner of his DIY turbo car initialy had a voodoo 2 on it before chad went with MS. 200 whp is totally doable hell i did it with a fmu and the stock 215'cc injetors/fuel pump but i have WI and this also puts my bsfc in the .45 range, most IC people run about .5 or so on moderate boost levels. Gl man also when you get it all running right and lined out post up some times charts etc we always like to keep up with what is out there.
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Old 07-14-2007, 04:58 PM   #6
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Thanks so much for the info on IC bsfc levels, thats why my calculations were so far off on the RC website.

And with that in mind, would it be possible to get 250whp on a voodoo and 305 or 330's? From the calculator in the RC website it seems feisable with an upgraded pump and rrfpr getting about 95psi at the rail. And that is my original goal that I went down from due to my budget. Would a walbro 190hp and 12-1 give me that kind of fuel pressure?

And why are the begi ones so much more expensive? Do they do something that the obx ones on e-bay can't?

And is there a difference between this
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/OBX-F...spagenameZWDVW
and this?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/OBX-F...spagenameZWDVW
Does one just have a gauge?
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Old 07-14-2007, 06:20 PM   #7
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The 1st FPR raises pressure with boost (12psi fuel for every psi of boost) and the second one replaces the stock FPR and can be adjusted by turning a screw to whatever static fuel pressure you want. I went with a vortech RRFPR simply because when I talked to my local performance shop about my project (I need them to do exhaust and dyno tuning) I was told to stay away from ebay FMUs/FPRs and get a name brand. I'm going overkill with my fuel setup because I'm a newb and I can use the EMB (piggyback ecu) to control fuel more accurately than just with a FPR. It will allow me headroom in the future, though. The walbro 190hp would probably be a good choice with those injectors and a FPR.
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Old 07-14-2007, 10:36 PM   #8
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So, which type of FPR would be ideal to use with 305cc and a 190hp? And so what does the 12-1 or 10-1 ratio refer to?

And does anyone think that 250whp is possible on 305s, 190hp, voodoo box, and a fpr?
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Old 07-14-2007, 10:44 PM   #9
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Sorry, I forgot to ask, how does the begi rrfpr compare with the obx stuff? Would that also get me around 90psi? Sorry about my ignorance on the subject. but I am ready and willing to learn.
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Old 07-14-2007, 11:38 PM   #10
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I don't think anybody around here will tell you that OBX anything is a good idea. When it comes to a part that, if it fails, will instantly toast a motor, you're probably better off spending a little extra $$ on a quality product. Used Begi 2025 AFPR's are available in the classifieds all the time, as are used 3XXcc injectors. I didn't do the math, but your idea of using the Voodoo to supplement the other pieces just to get enough fuel to push 250whp is more trouble than it's worth, and you're gonna have a lot of variables to adjust/tweak/tune. It's gonna be tough and require some dyno time with a smart dude to get your tune to an acceptable flatness. Instead, you're a prime candidate for EMB.

Sell the Voodoo and Bipes, and score a used EMB+Boomslang+440's and you'll be way ahead in adjustability and SUPPORT AROUND HERE! In conjunction with a WBO2 and Autotune, you'll have a fuel/timing curve that Voodoo/Bipes couldn't hope to match for way less $$.

Also, the 12-1/10-1 ratio thing refers to the amount of rise from a Vortech(disc) style RRFPR. A fully adjustable AFPR, like the Begi unit, has an infinite range or "rate of rise" adjustment via a needle valve, while the Vortech units require you to swap in another disc.

The setup you describe Bipes/Walbro190/310/AFPR is exactly what I use and make 190whp @12psi boost on 90-100psi fuel pressure. My fuel curve is acceptable. I'm not sure what throwing a Voodoo in on top of all that would do... but considering the cost:
Voodoo: $400
Bipes: $200
AFPR: $200
Pump: $100
Inj's: $50
WB02 and/or 2hrs on dyno: $200-$300
You're talking $1200 which is what used Link's with all the sensors go for.
I know you're FM kit comes with the Voodoo, but you can sell one any day of the week on m.net. Overall, I think the setup you describe would work, but it's way more money and effort than you realize to get a safe 250whp tune out of. A the very least, you need to seriously think about Emanage Blue.
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Old 07-14-2007, 11:50 PM   #11
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+1 on Sam's advice, however substitue emanage blue with emanage ultimate. Or maybe the new AEM piggyback.

If you want FM hardware, that's fine. But cancel the voodoo box. It's a poor fuel solution that won't come close to meeting your engine management needs.
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Old 07-15-2007, 12:01 AM   #12
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Well luckily for me I haven't gotten the fm kit yet, and I think I can still change the order around. So if I were to decline on electronics with the fm kit, then what makes the emanage that much better than a voodoo?

It's still a piggyback right? And a new pump would still be required to supply 440's with sufficient fuel right? Does it also control timing? How does the emanage run such large injectors as a piggyback???

How does the emanage compare to AEM FIC?

And what is boomslang?

Thanks for the help so far
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Old 07-15-2007, 12:07 AM   #13
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If I canceled the electronics do you know what else I would need with the FM kit? Or is that just a question I need to ask them?

So how many people are running the emanage with close to 250whp? Does the emanage do ignition too so the bipes would go?

Has anyone tried the AEM unit?
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Old 07-15-2007, 12:12 AM   #14
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You'll need to do the math based on how much the EMB can lengthen injector pulses to determine if 440's will suffice. I'm pretty sure you won't need a fuel pump though.
The FM Link kits just use the Link and Injectors on the stock pump w/no AFPR and get 240whp out of the box. I'm pretty sure the EMB can give you enough fuel for at least that with 440's... or 550's for sure. The Voodoo also doesn't allow you to adjust it... there is no tuning. You simply wire it in and according to a preset curve, it adds fuel based on boost... which works fine up to a certain point... but I don't think anybody gets 250whp out of one. The EMB gives you full adjustability through a Laptop across the entire rev-range. EMB will also give you full control over TIMING, which Voodoo does not. Bipes is great for retarding timing, but it does so over RPM, not boost, and can't add back in timing for you. EMB will retard and advance timing anywhere you want it.

Boomslang is a PNP harness so you don't have to splice any wires on the factory harness.
http://www.boomslang.us/emanage.htm
I don't run eManage, but I'd guess it's well worth every penny unless you want to pull your harness to do a quality soldering job on it. Soldering on your knees in the passenger footwell is a hell I don't wish on my worst enemy.
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Old 07-15-2007, 12:23 AM   #15
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There are quite a few guys who run that much power on eManage. If you call FM and tell them you're looking to upgrade a Voodoo kit to make 250whp, they'll steer you towards a Link. I've never heard of an FM employee openly spout the merits of eManage, but probably because even the base model eManage at $200 does twice what the voodoo does at $450.

If you cancelled the Voodoo, you still need something to control fuel and spark. EMB, which is a piggyback, does both of those far better than Voodoo/Bipes.

Now, installing an eManage still means you're gonna need to hit the dyno. Nobody gets 250whp by guessing. You'll be able to download a decent Map from somebody in the eManage forum with a similar setup to get started. You're gonna need a WBO2 sensor to feed it as well for the power you're looking for. Head down to the eManage forum on the main page and read through ALL THE STICKY'S!!! And do a search through the classifieds for the last year or so and check what people are getting for their eManages. Check eBay as well.
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Old 07-15-2007, 12:29 AM   #16
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heh... emb ain't gonna run 440 cc injectors. Ultimate will though.

You won't get feedback on the new AEM box because, well, it's NEW. You'd be trailblazing if you went with it.
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Old 07-15-2007, 01:01 AM   #17
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Thanks for all of the help. I actually ordered a wideband o2 with my kit, so thats taken care of.

From what everyone is saying, the emanage completely rapes the voodoo in all categories, and I should try to run that instead. If I can run the stock fuel pump and no fmu with 440 or 550's then I will be extra happy and a bit richer. I'll have a look around the emanage section to get more answers, but does 250whp sound possible with the emanage?

And the reason that I am considering the AEM is that I heard through the grapevine that FM plans on selling the AEM unit, as they already sell a lot of other aem parts. Plus the FM support would be nice (although the emanage support on these forums sounds just as good).
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Old 07-16-2007, 05:36 PM   #18
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Well I talked to FM today and it sounds like if all goes as planned, and they can get the AEM unit working well, then they will be selling it in the future. They couldn't give me a very concrete time line, but a rough estimate was a few months. So once they have that I think I'll give it a try.

But with that in mind, if I can sell the voodoo box for $400? then I will actually save a little $$ over the non-electronics kit, plus that 5% discount on the rest of my order saves me another $50.

But I was thinking, I could go voodoo/bipes until the new AEM unit is being supplied by FM, which should be a pretty good setup for a lower hp goal (180-190whp?). And from what everyone has said, the 305cc injectors should work well with the voodoo and bipes combo.

I had one question though, would a new fuel pump raise the pressure at the rail, or will the stock fpr do its job and keep pressure the same. With 305cc, voodoo, bipes and a new fpr getting 75psi at the rail (still on stock pump) i should be able to get some ok power no?

And thanks for the help
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Old 07-16-2007, 06:04 PM   #19
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Again, that's a question for FM. I'm pretty sure the Voodoo is designed to work with stock fuel pressures on a stock fuel system. The Bipes should allow you to dial in much higher base timing.

I don't think I see a problem with the Bipes/Voodoo/305's. Depending on the limits of the Voodoo, you might look at some 330's which the stock ECU will still idle well. You'll have to do some tuning... and Voodoo does have some adjusments you can make for fine-tuning.
http://www.flyinmiata.com/support/in...Voodoo_Box.pdf
Depending on just what the Voodoo limits are, you might have to try a couple different injector sizes 305/310/330 to get a good A/F at a fixed boost level... but you can road test that with your WB02.
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Old 07-16-2007, 08:28 PM   #20
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i just turbocharged my 97 and i threw on some 550cc injectors with an xede engine management piggyback... now, i dont know much about the eManage system, but i can tell you that the xede is working great for me and it'll definately work with those 440s you were talking about. i got it from begi.
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