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Old 02-09-2009, 11:08 PM   #1
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Default 400rwhp Stock Motor.

It's been done. I'm going to do it again, or blow the thing trying. Here's my plan so far.

Stock head no work
Stock intake manifold
Stock block
KnockSenseMS
GT3076R (With t25 flange)
18x12x3 ebay intercooler
ETD Dual Feed Rail
1000cc injectors (low impedance)
Walbro 255
3" straight pipe exhaust
Water injection (probably devil's own)
Godspeed radiator (if and when i need it)
01 6 speed
kaaz LSD or ford 7.5" rear (havent decided yet)
Energy suspension bushings
Chromolly cage
Driveshaft loop
Scattershield

I currently have a begi s1 kit and a mspnp. I will be using as many of my current parts as possible. I am thinking that with a good tune with 50/50 meth/water injection, i can do 400rwhp on 18psi. Tuning is going to be the key thing here. Preventing detonation while still making the power. The knock threshold at 400rwhp will be very low. Hopefully knocksense can do it's job but i dont want to depend on it.

I am throwing around a couple of ideas about the turbo/manifold combo. If i go with the 3076R and the t25 flange, that would be ideal cost wise. However, i had to do some cutting to get my gt2860 to fit. I cant imagine that a 3076 would be able to fit in there. I may be able to clock the turbo in such a way that it will fit, maybe not. I would like to clock it down so that i can use as much of my current piping as possible.

My main goal is going to be drag racing so lag is not really an issue as long as I have a usable powerband.

I know that there are haters out there that say I will blow it up. Well, so be it. It will be a fun time trying. If I dont blow it up, i will be among a small group to have actually done this.

What do you guys think?
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Old 02-09-2009, 11:12 PM   #2
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All I will say is good luck....post pictures of the build and the dyno chart of success or carnage of failure
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Old 02-09-2009, 11:16 PM   #3
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I think that's ******* awesome. As long as you're cool with possible sending a rod into orbit who could hate on that plan. We'll find out how much the stock motor can handle
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Old 02-09-2009, 11:28 PM   #4
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I wouldn't do it with anything other than some very hi-octane Sunoco or otherwise.
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Old 02-09-2009, 11:35 PM   #5
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This sounds like a fantastic plan... I hope you pull it off, but if you don't, try to get some video of it actually exploding. Or at least a datalog!
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Old 02-09-2009, 11:37 PM   #6
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It's possible. But I don't know how long it will hold up. You will need that WI working very well and you better not ever have the first hint of detonation.

The factory motor is clearanced for the factory power. As you increase the power, the piston temperatures go up and as they expand, clearances get tighter. Too tight and it will seize a piston/stretch a rod/throw a rod. If you put a stock motor at 400whp for 30 seconds at 5K on a dyno it will lock up. Stock clearances won't support that.

You'll need a good reroute for sure for the above mentioned reason of controlling heat. WI will be your lifeline, but it's not a complete solution.

4>6.
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Old 02-09-2009, 11:40 PM   #7
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BOOM!!! Ric Stevens did it once.. It lasted on the dyno and blew up on the 2 pass at the track! Danny G (No longer in the Miata scene) did high 380's and chucked a rod every time after a few passes.

I made 360ish and never pushed it more... Went with Pistons and Rods and made 500hp afterwards!

Good luck dude!
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Old 02-09-2009, 11:44 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samnavy View Post
I wouldn't do it with anything other than some very hi-octane Sunoco or otherwise.
I will not anything higher than pump gas in my car. I figure i make up for the lack of race fuel with water injection.

Does anyone know if this has been done on pump gas? I know 350 has, but 400 I don't know.

The Funky "Minimonster" - Purple Mazda Miata - Turbo Magazine

I have been talking to a girl who also made 400rwhp on the stock motor. She ran it for a year like this and then sold it and it is still running strong. However, this was on race fuel. She used the stock tranny and a kaaz LSD with the stock ring gear and axles. She ended up running a 10.9 quarter. Her name on miata.net was miata_mamma. This was done a few years ago.
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Old 02-09-2009, 11:56 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
BOOM!!! Ric Stevens did it once.. It lasted on the dyno and blew up on the 2 pass at the track! Danny G (No longer in the Miata scene) did high 380's and chucked a rod every time after a few passes.

I made 360ish and never pushed it more... Went with Pistons and Rods and made 500hp afterwards!

Good luck dude!
Haha, right as you were posting that, i was posting the article about his car. The girl's name that did it was Jennifer Tipton. Have you guys heard of her? She lives around here and has been kind of the catalyst for this project getting underway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by patsmx5 View Post
It's possible. But I don't know how long it will hold up. You will need that WI working very well and you better not ever have the first hint of detonation.

The factory motor is clearanced for the factory power. As you increase the power, the piston temperatures go up and as they expand, clearances get tighter. Too tight and it will seize a piston/stretch a rod/throw a rod. If you put a stock motor at 400whp for 30 seconds at 5K on a dyno it will lock up. Stock clearances won't support that.

You'll need a good reroute for sure for the above mentioned reason of controlling heat. WI will be your lifeline, but it's not a complete solution.

4>6.
Longevity is not really an issue. I just want it to make it through the season. I will be working on a built motor and while i do that, this is kind of a side project. Thermal efficiency is definitely going to be the key. WI and good cooling system. However, this is car is going to be run hard for several seconds at a time and then given a chance to cool off so it has that going for it. 400rwhp on a road course would never work with the stock tolerances.

(4>6)? I feel like i'm missing a reference here.
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Old 02-10-2009, 12:01 AM   #10
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For what you're trying to do, you'll want to run a 150*F thermostat or something similar and a reroute. Basically keeping the engine as cool as possible (within reason) as to not overwhelm it too quickly. When you can't keep it cool, everything else has to change to keep it safe. IE-you might run 20* at 16 PSI and be ok, but after 5 seconds of throwing 1/3 of 400whp into the block, it's so damn hot that the motor will detonate at 13*, few seconds later 11* it will detonate, etc. I'm guessing you'll be running it on the quarter mile?

4 speed auto > 6 speed
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Old 02-10-2009, 12:11 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patsmx5 View Post
For what you're trying to do, you'll want to run a 150*F thermostat or something similar and a reroute. Basically keeping the engine as cool as possible (within reason) as to not overwhelm it too quickly. When you can't keep it cool, everything else has to change to keep it safe. IE-you might run 20* at 16 PSI and be ok, but after 5 seconds of throwing 1/3 of 400whp into the block, it's so damn hot that the motor will detonate at 13*, few seconds later 11* it will detonate, etc. I'm guessing you'll be running it on the quarter mile?

4 speed auto > 6 speed
Ahh, I see, hopefully a godspeed radiator and a higher pressure cap can help me keep the temps low. Also, during the summer, i can run distilled water with water wetter. I have considered some ice in the water injection reservoir (not sure on this one). I have also heard of people looping some extra fuel line through a coffee can and putting dry ice in there.

On the trans issue, i would probably run faster times with the auto, however, it wouldn't be nearly as fun for me. If i scatter the 6 speed, i will be considering an auto but i just cant make myself steer away from the manual its too much fun.
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Old 02-10-2009, 12:18 AM   #12
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Ice in the WI is a joke. That won't work. Could you pull the motor apart and hone that bitch a couple thousandths oversize? That would get your working clearances up to something safe for what you're trying to do. Would only cost you time and a gasket kit (like 60 bucks on ebay). Hopped up auto's are fun. I've hopped up a few. Ever drive an auto with a fully manual valve body? It's sick.
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Old 02-10-2009, 12:31 AM   #13
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Didn't see this listed but you probably ought to do the "too cold" coolant reroute while you're at it.
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Old 02-10-2009, 12:43 AM   #14
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Good luck man, get some video!
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Old 02-10-2009, 12:45 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patsmx5 View Post
Ice in the WI is a joke. That won't work. Could you pull the motor apart and hone that bitch a couple thousandths oversize? That would get your working clearances up to something safe for what you're trying to do. Would only cost you time and a gasket kit (like 60 bucks on ebay). Hopped up auto's are fun. I've hopped up a few. Ever drive an auto with a fully manual valve body? It's sick.
I want to keep it stock. If i have the motor apart, i might as well throw strong **** in there. I've never driven a really fast auto car. Maybe if i did, my mind would be changed. I will be watching your project and see how yours works out and what you have to do to it in order to get the results you are wanting.

This should be a good time. I'm excited. Walbro came today and injectors should be in later this week. I need to sell my disco potato so i can order the big turbo.
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Old 02-10-2009, 01:00 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wes65 View Post
I want to keep it stock. If i have the motor apart, i might as well throw strong **** in there. I've never driven a really fast auto car. Maybe if i did, my mind would be changed. I will be watching your project and see how yours works out and what you have to do to it in order to get the results you are wanting.

This should be a good time. I'm excited. Walbro came today and injectors should be in later this week. I need to sell my disco potato so i can order the big turbo.
Well, yeah, but... If you want to better your chances of making your goal, it would help. Just saying.

Autos rule. Friend of mine built had his c4 in his foxbody built to the hill (5000 stall 8" race converter, fancy double something planetary, pumps, servos, manual lynntech valve body, etc.) in a 700hp foxbody before he swapped in a glide. Fun. I've put a shift kit in a few transmissions and that makes them a lot more fun than stock. Done a C4, AOD, EAOD, 700R4, and rebuilt a C6 completely.
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Old 02-10-2009, 01:13 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patsmx5 View Post
Well, yeah, but... If you want to better your chances of making your goal, it would help. Just saying.

Autos rule. Friend of mine built had his c4 in his foxbody built to the hill (5000 stall 8" race converter, fancy double something planetary, pumps, servos, manual lynntech valve body, etc.) in a 700hp foxbody before he swapped in a glide. Fun. I've put a shift kit in a few transmissions and that makes them a lot more fun than stock. Done a C4, AOD, EAOD, 700R4, and rebuilt a C6 completely.
Hmm, i will have to ask around to see if anyone around here has a built auto that i can drive.

On a side note, does anyone have any ideas about the fitment issues with the larger turbo?
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Old 02-10-2009, 01:19 AM   #18
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I had fitment issues with my larger turbo... Used a 1/4" air powered spinny thingy that goes whirrrrr with a carbide bur and I made the needed clearances. Note, give yourself some clearance as the motor rocks around. I gave mine 1/8" and it hit when letting off the gas, reverse, etc. Ended up using a pry bar and BFH to make some extra clearance without having to pull the turbo. I got pics if you want em.
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Old 02-10-2009, 01:29 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by patsmx5 View Post
I had fitment issues with my larger turbo... Used a 1/4" air powered spinny thingy that goes whirrrrr with a carbide bur and I made the needed clearances. Note, give yourself some clearance as the motor rocks around. I gave mine 1/8" and it hit when letting off the gas, reverse, etc. Ended up using a pry bar and BFH to make some extra clearance without having to pull the turbo. I got pics if you want em.
Haha yeah, i used a dremmel to make clearance for the 2860, i guess i will just make some more for the bigger compressor housing. Pictures would be cool though.

ps, i'm going to quote this in my sig, i literally laughed out loud.

"Used a 1/4" air powered spinny thingy that goes whirrrrr"
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Old 02-10-2009, 01:30 AM   #20
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okay, maybe not, too many lines. Funny none-the-less though.
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