air-chilled water intercooler? - Page 3 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 01-22-2009, 09:49 PM   #41
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Compressing a liquid won't have the same heating effect that compressing a gas has. When you compress a gas, you are essentially excerting a force over a distance and doing some work on that gas, adding energy to it and increasing the temperature. When you compress a fluid, you are exerting a force, but over vitrually no distance, so you don't really add much energy or heat to the fluid.
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Old 01-22-2009, 10:02 PM   #42
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that makes sense.
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Old 01-22-2009, 11:36 PM   #43
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Gasoline has a low vaporization temp, which is what makes it work as a motor fuel. Nitrous does a real nice job as it hits the intake charge damn cold (can't remember the exact temp, but COLD). Water works nice because of the high specific heat, which makes it really suck the heat energy out of the charge. AND it keeps the combustion chamber deposits flaked off, which eliminates a lot of potential hot spots that will glow plug you into det.

Nice log numbers, but they also illustrate what I'm talking about with spark retard. What was the ambient air temp? Pretty cold, right? What would a log show if you did that run in 100*F air? Anything you have on record? I've built a turbo motor that ran fine in winter, but blew the tops out of the pistons in summertime. Old timey tech on that motor, though, with a blow thru carb in a box, with a homemade vac advance/pressure retard working off a diaphragm, spring tuned.

The alt fuel vehicle law in GA is applicable to any vehicle certified to operate off a non-conventional fuel as it's sole source of heat energy. The propane system is not secondary, it's the primary and sole fuel system. You get an ugly little green tree sticker for you car and the tree huggers smile at you...

Last edited by fasteddy; 01-23-2009 at 11:25 AM.
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Old 02-10-2009, 02:43 PM   #44
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Been thinking about this some more.

I buy the heat saturation on the chillede i/c system for track time, since you are on the power hard a large percentage of the time. What would the heat loading be in street use where you are only doing sprints, not marathons? You are then "storing" chilling medium capacity. You can dump the heat loads over the high mani vac cruise times at a lower rate than you added them.
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Old 02-10-2009, 04:48 PM   #45
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Screw you until you post your location like you are supposed to. Did you do a meet and greet post? No!

Nobody answer him until he straightens up and flies right.

He's had a month and he's been asked repeatedly.
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Old 02-11-2009, 10:28 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fasteddy View Post
Methanol is HIGHLY toxic. Handle with care.
Methanol isn't that bad... Yes it is toxic, but have you read an MSDS on it? I work with it everyday as a solvent to clean glassware here at work from reactions. Trust me, there are worse things out there than Methanol. However, on another note I've read the entire thread and there are some good points brought up in it. I do know a mixture with Methanol that will get your bath temperature to ~-20C and will not freeze. You would just have to find a pump that could handle the temps and since this mixture involves ice that it does not have anywhere to condense when the ice melts eventually. Not sure how long it will last as cooling the intercooler will transfer a lot of heat to the liquid flowing through it, but it is just an idea. Good luck!
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Old 02-11-2009, 10:47 AM   #47
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Needs more boost.

OK, good luck with this...but would but just as easy with a larger IC
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Old 02-11-2009, 12:25 PM   #48
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Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't the larger intercooler core cause a greater pressure drop over the core? I'm talking about going overly larger, not a sutle increase in overall volume. One of the reasons most people use a/w intercoolers is due to their higher efficiency and reduced overall volume to support higher horsepower levels. I don't know if this has been asked yet or not, but what kind of horsepower are you planning to run with your setup? If it's nothing substantal then the idea might be solid, but for the application, it might be worthless. Just trying to get a grasp of the overall goal here and how much cooling capacity you will need on this system.
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Old 02-11-2009, 03:36 PM   #49
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The alt fuel vehicle law in GA
Since that didn't seem sufficient, sixshooter, Lake Lanier, NE GA, which is about all I care to relate in an open forum until I get to know you better. I'm a suspicious and very careful old bastid.

You guys seem to be living up to your rep, but I knew about that before I visited. No sweat.

I'm still shopping for the car, probably something 1800cc sized. I do my research and planning before I buy the ride. I will surely let you know what I buy. If I do. This may be the wrong platform for what I intend, but it does not yet appear so, despite some driveline weaknesses y'all have discovered.

Sixshooter, I'll be in Tampa this spring, delivering my old Bertram from Huntsville to the new owner, and would like the opportunity to see your setup and take some measurements, if it's not an imposition.
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Old 02-11-2009, 04:20 PM   #50
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I meant to put your location information in your details, under your name, on the left of the screen. It is customary and expected. I didn't realize that you just didn't understand the request. Where mine says Tampa yours would say Lake (missing 30ft. of water) Lanier, GA.

As to the measurements, certainly. But it might be even more enlightening for you to see a variety of different setups and how they fit right there in Suwanee. And if you are interested in your own engine management system, you could sit in on a few seminars. https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/t30694/
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Old 02-11-2009, 05:03 PM   #51
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OK fixed the details.

My goal is a really hot street car. I ran Fiat spiders with massive mods in the 70's-90's, mostly n/a mods, and I also owned a Triumph TR3B and a Datsun SRL311, also with a lot of engine and handling mods. Miatas are Spiders without dealing with Italian idiosyncrasies, like inside door handles that break on a monthly basis. Roadsters are one of my first loves, and if I had the $, I'd have a Caterham 7.

If my understanding is correct, you get a pressure loss in ANY intercooler, a/a or a/w, because when you drop the temp, you drop the pressure under gas laws. I know, it's more complex than that...

I'll probably never track or drag strip the car. I've got an old G-Tech pro that works fine for tuning assesment, and I've already spent years on a quarter mile, and my head is too big for all but custom helmets for track days.

My target is a sleeper that can run with most anything I want to whip. My current play ride is an 87 Mitsu swb Montero with a 2.6 turbo motor with a/a i/c and 195rwhp on the optional starion sport turbo (swapped mitsu 12a for a 14g) running 14psi. I'll be doing sprints, not track runs at a lot of wot, so on the street, my max boost times will be under 30sec with a pretty fat margin, with typical wot times of under 15sec. Even my hill climb runs in the Blue Ridge pretty much conform to that. This leads me to believe that with a decent sized water reservoir, I'd have enough reserve to avoid heat soak. I lack the math to check it, which is why I inquired here. This type of forum attracts engineer types who are typically not content (any more than I am) to just bolt on a kit. I like to figure out more elegant solutions.

I'll have to check out the Suwanee meet...
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Old 02-11-2009, 05:25 PM   #52
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Seriously, it all sounds good in theory.

But honestly, does it really matter if your AIT's are 90*F or 60? Not really. The gain might be 20whp. Dial in an extra pound of boost. I know having the fancy system sounds cool, but it's a waste.

What matters more to you? Put them in order.

1) Peak HP numbers
2) HP/weight ratio
3) reliability
4) simplicity
5) AIT's
6) Peak temperature during combustion
7) throttle response.

If 7 is your first pick, get IRRRRTB's.
If 6 is your choice, water injection.
If 1,2,3, or 4 interest you, get an A/A IC.
If you put AIT's ahead of everything else, your priorities aren't in order.
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Old 02-11-2009, 05:29 PM   #53
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I never owned a TR3, but I rode in (and made psychological car-guy love to) a TR3A before. And Fiats aren't any more fun to push than English cars.

Good luck with the water problem.
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