Asking the gurus: How would you continue?
 

1995 1.8
mtx-l + ms3x w/ gm IAT
640cc flowforce injectors
2.5in silverline dual exhaust
drilled and tapped oil pan (previously turbocharged)
Compression 180 across (175 in one cylinder)
stock everywhere else. (sans the harddog/placeholder diamond steelies)

I had set a small budget, and have set aside 6-7k for the turbo build. With the car and money ready to go, and the last two years of research and moderate lurking of MT. I can't help but recognize my sheer ignorance. I love the idea of the track speed engineering 6258 kit. However, I want to make sure I do this build right. No matter how much I research and learn, I know from personal experience that after I do something for the first couple of times, I make mistakes. Hindsight has always been my best teacher. So before I go spending a bunch of money in the all the wrong places, and making costly mistakes that could potentially harm the fun/driving capability of my car, I wanted to pose a simple question...

If you were in my shoes, how would you spend the money on making power?
(suspension and other mods have a separate budget)

This site, and all of the mods/admin, have been a tremendous help to me over the last couple of years as well. Since I fear your flames, but admire and respect your knowledge, I humbly ask that you guide me with your infinite wisdom.

:)

The real question is: what are your real, actual, bottom line power goals, as well as goals with the car in general?

The goal was to have a car that was street-able, as well as capable on track for those random weekend warrior events. When I first got the car, my no research dreaming had the horsepower goal at 400 or so, while salivating watching 10 second miata drag runs interwoven with Keiichi Tsuchiya Video Option togue domination. After getting schooled here, I quickly lowered my expectations lol. Since I live on a mountain with no straight roads, I would really like the car to have the best acceleration possible for the uphill/downhill runs that are my day to day. As much fun as I have in the corners, the local STI's and my GF's Audi make me feel the lack of power. I realize a lot of the car's build will be suspension focused for this, but I didn't know if I should build the motor first before turbo charging, or just turbo charge it first. I like the idea of the twin scroll EFR for minimal spool times, but initially trying to make the minimum horsepower rating for it seems out of reach. There are so many Japanese sites like Maruha, with proven and capable engine parts, and if I just bought a track speed turbo kit and built my intercooler setup, I'd have funds left over to continue to build power. I wouldn't want to burn through my money buying random little things, I'd rather have a solid plan, because advantis/xidas or ohlins/wilwoods are coming shortly after the power. I'd like to continue building the car appropriately, with parts and companies that this community stands by. If I could achieve 350+ I'd be extremely happy.

You won't get 350-400hp with $6-7K reliable. Engine build to support even the short end of that will take a lot. You'll need to budget $1-1.5K just for machine work unless you do the tear down/reassembly yourself.

Add track reliability into the equation adds several thousand to the budget.

Where you are and the type of driving I'd think 230-250hp would fit the bill and leave you with a lot of money to do suspension to support the power. There isn't a lot of cars that can outrun a well built 250hp miata with a capable suspension (and driver).

That 250hp makes many thousand $$$ difference just in engine and support mods.

I'll add, a 400hp miata on a twisty public highway is a potentially deadly weapon.

Just my opinion.

Hmm. 7k for 350whp? I'm going to say nope. 7k could get you a 220whp at altitude, but anything higher, and you'll need at least a mild engine build. If your budget was 10k for ONLY engine bay power mods, I'd say 350 is not a problem, especially since you have engine management.

If I were you, I'd give Andrew a call at TSE and talk to him about your budget and power goals.

Also, I have a brand new V8Roadster Radial Wilwood BBK with all the fixins, street and track pads. When it comes time for you to buy brakes, I'll probably still have the kit up for sale.

I'd get all the TSE turbo bits that are out now along with the 6258, source the rest, and shoot for a very conservative mid 200's horsepower :)

After you get used to that, and when the rest of the car and your driving skills are good, then start building an engine using a better head from an NB

The key is not to buy things twice, and definitely not to just plunge headfirst into a giant money pit on jack stands shooting for some insane power number, you'll learn the rest as you go.

We've made good progress tuning the car thus far, and the signal issues seem to be fixed, you're off to a good start :likecat:

I could always increase the budget. If I were to plan to reach 350 how would you go about it?

If you still have it when I need it, you may have found yourself a future customer haha. :)


Yeah, 350+ would be awesome, I realize that 250 is much more realistic in my budget. How would you spend the money if you were in my shoes?
oh annd lol I'm not a crazy person. I wouldn't be able to unleash that kind of horsepower on a mountain road, I don't have a death wish, nor would I do something that reckless on a public road. I totally agree with you that it would be a deadly weapon lol.

That sums up what I needed to hear I guess. I definitely don't want to buy things twice, I'm used to the power of my friend's tuned/built STI, so all I kept thinking was that it was a short road from 250-400hp with only money standing in the way. If we were talking a few grand to build the engine, in my mind it'd be more cost effective to build the engine now, and buy 1 kit from TSE with a larger turbo, than to buy the 6258 kit now, build the engine soon, and have to purchase a larger turbo down the line. Potentially in the next year.

EDIT: (I should mention that my buddies STI is a deadly weapon, and his driving terrifies me lol.)

Your 5sp will break around 300whp. So there's that too. Then you'll need to be able to put power down, so there's that. And it keeps adding on.

And I'm pretty sure the 6258 could make 400 on e85 if pushed properly.
Or get a 6758 and give up a little response for the ability to hit 450.

Where you live there's really no place to stretch those sort of legs, IMO. It takes you nearly an hour to get to a straight road just to record a log :giggle:

Well, you already have a lot of the supporting stuff to do 250 (MS3, injectors etc). I'd stick to what 18psi said above;

1. TSE kit
2. Rods & potentially pistons (yes, I know...)
2. Clutch (don't remember if you mentioned it)
3. Cooling

Later to bump up the HP
4. Oil pump & damper
5. Injectors
6. 3" Exhaust
7. 6SP
8. BP or VVT head at some point

Not a scientific list by any means.

I don't know if I can get E85 in Tahoe lol. I think I'm stuck on pump gas. I had considered water/meth injection, but took that out of the initial plans.
The idea of the 6758 is how I got stuck in my rabbit hole currently lol. Do you think my budget would allow for the supporting mods to run enough boost to make the 6758 worthwhile?

Supposedly the car has a better clutch in it from when it was previously turbo charged. I have no idea if this is true or not. Thanks for the list, it helps.

It's more about putting the power down, and having a balanced car.

You won't ever really be able to push a 350-400whp miata hard on public twisties where a mistake could literally take your life. Been there with my 300whp NB, got absolutely dusted in the twisties by more experienced drivers in 200-250whp miata's. It wasn't even close.

If you were tracking it regularly, then I'd say go for the bigger snail. If not, or not often, then it's a pretty clear choice.

You'd need to do everything to get to max with the 6258. Then, you have all the mods and sell the 6258 used and buy the 6758 new. Win! :party:

I'd like to see the person that's bored with a 6258 on a miata at full tilt. Ever. Except maybe the freeway roll race guys, which is not what we're talking about.

Definitely not into freeway roll races. I got rid of my GST and the straight line game to go RWD w/ handling. That's good to know about the 6258. I will probably go this route.

Definitely don't go for the moon first try. I did this and it was just a retarded decision. Go for the build, drive build , drive meathod. Sinking what seems like an endless amount of money into a project on jack stands for 2 years, is a recipe for disaster.

Go read my thread and see how many times I almost threw in the towel.

I also started with a 2560, lasted one summer before I went 6258efr.

MTurbo setup now. Enjoy the limits of the stock motor and getting to know boost for the next year. Then decide to go the build motor route. Build it on the side while enjoying the car. Then swap it in and break it in with MKTurbo. After that upgrade to a TSE setup, sell pat of MKTurbo to recoup some of the costs.

This will end up costing you more then going straight to the TSE setup by $500-$1000 over the lifetime of the build, but it will allow you to get into boost much more cheaply upfront. It will also get you a sweet 3" exhaust that can later be used with the TSE setup, with minor modification. Basically check out Colipto's build thread, but don't actually break everything like he did.

I have to agree, as if errors come up it is with a guy that backs up his project, a new turbo is blown/broken is cheap. And honestly, if the suspension (Xidas) and wheels/tires are set up on a twisty road, it is hard to think about the power. Even a simple 200whp completely changes the feel of the car as a whole.

It goes from a ~23lbs/hp to a ~11.5lb/hp which feels totally different in terms of just cruising around and leaning into 4th, or all out acceleration in 2nd and 3rd. Acceleration would be similar in a brand new V6 camaro, which isn't a very slow car. Then once you touch 300whp, you're in brand new 2016+ Camaro SS 455hp at ~8lbs/hp. Better hope the brakes and suspension can keep up when you're getting on it. That's my ultimate goal.

I'd have to disagree with buying two different turbo setups. Buy the TSE kit ONCE, then get the bigger turbo later if you feel you need it -- but you probably won't. a 300 whp miata is stinkin' quick.