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Build Thread: An Exercise in Heat Mangement
I've been researching and collecting parts ever since I got my first miata two years ago and I've finally gotten to a point I'm ready to commence the turbo build. I'm on day two of what will probably be a full winter of a build. To date I've started with a 95' NA built it up into a regionally competitive STR auto-x car, then swapped over to a NB when a good deal came along and have turned the focus more towards a track build that can still auto-x for fun. I'm not aiming for a particular class which I know means I'm pretty much screwing myself for being competitive. I love wrenching and fiddling with cars and this is just an outlet for my interest, I'm aiming to make the car versitile enough to auto-x, HPDE, time trial and eventually hill climb in whatever class it'll fit in hopefully embarrassing it's share of camaro's, mustangs and corvettes along the way. I've been able to pick on these type's of cars in an auto-x setting, going to have to do something if I want to do the same on any track with a strait away. It'll get driven to the events and I don't want any heat issues no matter how crazy I get with it in the future.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...36108c5d73.jpg With an eye towards a tight budget the car (oo' SE) is setup with: chassis Ebay Bilstein setup with 800/450 lb/in springs Stock Sways Blank rotors / carbotech XP10's f/r / Adj. prop valve Roll bar / harness / Sparco sprints Weight removed and cut out wherever I can find it 9" 6UL's 225 Rival S, soon to go to a 245 Maxxis or a 225 RS3 to get some life on track Fully adjustable control arms Delrin bushings where articulation isn't needed Drivetrain low mile JDM BP4W, 190 psi across all cylinders cold MS2e 6 Speed 3.90 Torsen Full 2.5" exhaust (fabricated by me) Now onto the build, I've bought most of the parts already so feel free to make suggestions.....but I'll probably ignore them. Turbo build BEGI cast manifold / Inconel studs GT2560 3" stainless downpipe 2.5" exhaust, no cat, strait through muffler (this will get upgraded to the requisite 3" later) MS3x, WB, traction control (selling MS2) RX8 yellow injectors walbro 190 Skunk Honda intake and TB Ebay intercooler Massive aluminum radiator Massive oil cooler Spec stg. 3 sprung 6 puck ceramic / 12lb flywheel First stage of this build is to maximize the stock bottom end with a flat 210-220 ft/lb of torque from 4k to a reduced redline of 7k, the idea of these conservative numbers is to try to get this thing to live on track. I have another block that will eventually get forged internals and then I can crank the knob until the 6 speed implodes or the garrett just makes heat instead of boost. Day 1 included a saws all: https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...d6959d2879.jpg And a pile of parts: https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...505b0b8335.jpg Just a wee bit bigger radiator: https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...8674819114.jpg (Trying to get a slab of steel to finish this welding table.....plywood is a horrible ground) After a few hours of cutting I was able to mock up a couple of options for the 160$ summit racing radiator (mopar application has the outlets generally in the right location). I had two options in mind as far as mounting, conventional: https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...5eb736b1f6.jpg Then I tried out what I really had in mind: https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...bbc783c8f4.jpg Before you ask: https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...d5d54fca83.jpg The idea behind laying the radiator down this much is to allow for a V-mount setup with the intercooler mounted low. I always hated the compromise of stacking the intercooler in front of the radiator. If you don't seal it to the radiator the air flows around it and you get high IAT's, seal it to the radiator and you just relegated 1/3rd of the radiator to greatly reduced flow trying to pass air through nearly 5" of heat exchanger. Neither of those options allows for enough flow through the intercooler. The key to making something like this work is ducting.....and I'm going to have a LOT of it. It's getting vented out the hood. I'm going to try like hell to vent the intercooler out the hood as well, but this massive radiator is going to make this tough. Using the rule of 1/3rd vent area to the size of the heat exchanger (I've seen 1/4 to 1/3 thrown around as a rule of thumb) i would only need a 2" vent path (27" by 6" intercooler) for the intercooler air stream. As a last resort I'll vent the intercooler under the car. The reduction in lift by getting the radiator flow out through the hood will easily cover any intercooler air being vented under the car. I'm also not afraid to shorten the radiator, this puppy is 19" tall where the stocker is ~16" to make room for ducting. I want to keep the car street "legal" and that term is very loosely enforced in WV. If the inspection station even bothers to look for a cat they are doing good. In keeping it streetable I need cruise control, easy enough, and I would really like to keep the A/C...... with a balls out build like this it seems silly to screw up the airflow by leaving it in but man is it nice to kick on the cool air for the 2-4hr drive home from an event (no truck and trailer here). Packaging is already looking tough, so it may end up on the shelf yet. Day two I turned my focus to the Honduh skunk intake.....not even sure what version this is or if it's a knock off. Considering I picked it up for 100$ with a 65mm throttle body I'll make it work. It was actually already modified for a BP4W by welding additional tabs onto the honda flange and redrilling for the proper bolt pattern. Haven't seen it done this way before but I got it so cheap because the lower flange ears were all snapped off. After test fitting I can see why, it was jammed into the shock tower to the point that any engine movement would have it touching which is what probably caused the cracking. https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...ac3eda040d.jpg Luckily I had a spare VICS manifold laying around so out came the band saw: https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...b0e525bd05.jpg Some time on the belt sander and: https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...595206b1e6.jpg Ugly but functional:https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...b2a952e5ec.jpg I ended up having to cut down the miata runners a little closer to the flange to get it to fit right but it's tacked up and ready for final welding and porting: https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...b4a0441d7c.jpg I've got an A/C line that needs tweeked (already looking like it's on the chopping block) but it's got plenty of room to the shock tower, runners ended up a little shorter than I wanted but space dictated what I got. Factory fuel line routing will not work, add that to the to-do list. Now you're caught up on my progress so far, I'm taking the whole week off and planning on spending every hour I can find in the garage so I'll probably make some good headway this week but won't get it wrapped up till x-mas...... not like I can use 250 whp in the snow anyway. I'm seriously open to any suggestions or idea's, yes I've bought quite a bit of parts so far but if you think I'm overlooking something or wasting my time on something let me know, This site is a wealth of information and I based my build plans around the research I've done here over the past two years. Hopefully I help repay some of that knowledge with some of my idea's, whether they be success' or massive failures. Probably going to be the latter. |
With the front mouth taken up, where is the oil cooler going?
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Great question, it's going in the passenger side bumper corner, it'll get a dedicated inlet via the fog lamp bezel which will probably have to get enlarged. Air will get dumped into the fenderwell or ducted to the edge of the bumper. Initial mockup shows I was smoking crack to get something that big (10.5" x10.5") in the corner but I haven't given up yet. Worse case scenario is I order a smaller one. This is actually a Derale trans cooler which is built identically to their oil coolers. NPT fittings in / out, stacked plate design 78$.
http://derale.com/products/fluid-coo...9000-plate-fin https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...7f7890d5e9.jpg Fog inlet on drivers side will go to an airbox to feed the turbo inlet. |
Ok, so the front mouth and fog inlets are taken up. What are you doing for brake cooling?
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Brakes in general need upgraded, I don't expect my current setup to do much other than maybe a shake down track day at half boost. I like making rather than buying and I've built my own brake setups on other cars using larger OEM based calipers on cars that they never came on. So far I haven't found a setup that can beat the trackspeed kit, all OEM 4-piston options use pads that quickly pass up the costs of the willwoods or just cost more than them outright with more expensive pads. The individual kit component costs shake out to where the brackets cost less than 100$ and for that kind of coin I'll spend my time elsewhere. On top of that I don't have a milling machine yet so I'm not exactly equipped to make 3D brackets that are needed for the miata spindles. I'll match the fronts with sport rears. I also want to look into a dual master setup eventually but with the adj. prop valve I have now I should be able to keep it balanced as long as I can aim for a bias and hit it within a +- 25% range.
Said all that to say, currently plan to get the air for the vents from the sides of the radiator ducting. Hate to bleed off pressure that could be used to force air through the radiator but as opposed to punching another hole in the nose this looks to be my best option. |
To better communicate my vision:
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...f53e114aa4.jpg Option 2: https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...9879fd19fa.jpg |
Day Three:
Got a full day in and made some progress. I started with finishing up the intake. Have you ever tried to weld chinese aluminum to Japanese aluminum? It was a trip, I beveled the runners quite a bit trying to get full penetration but I still ended up needing to back weld the joint. I had to put a lot of heat into the weld to get the impurities to float out of the weld bead so the flange did end up warping a bit. The belt sander was able to straiten it up nicely. https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...766e92a1c8.jpg https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...00545b79ed.jpg After an hour or so of porting https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...b9458bd1f1.jpg https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...c570a6d2b2.jpg Finished product: https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...34e4dcbd76.jpg I give it a 50/50 chance of cracking into a million pieces. Just no way not to have weld contamination with two pieces of used aluminum. I'll be bracing this in an attempt to get it to last longer than 5 min. I then turned my attention to the sandwich adapter. This is a 20$ ebay special that I tapped about a million holes in. I wanted to route oil to the cooler but didn't want the complication or point of failure of a thermostat so I'll just have to take it easy until the oil warms up. Of course to know if it's warmed up I'll need a temp sensor, and then an actual pressure sensor, both of which will go into the megasquirt an activate a warning light and be displayed on the tablet I have mounted in the center stack. https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...9ef6743db3.jpg https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...b11796db4b.jpg I finally got started on the downpipe, man you would think just squishing a 3" pipe into an oval would be easy, but cut the ell an 1" shorter than the true centerline of the bend and give it a 20 deg. twist and shit gets real. In the end I was happy with the result. https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...b6aaad217c.jpg https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...ad3e6cd561.jpg https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...791efdf07d.jpg It doesn't look like it from this angle but I have 1/2" of clearance to the firewall. You'll also notice I had to put a bend in the heater hose connection to make room as well. https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...dd04f37604.jpg https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...a89b1192fc.jpg Making progress |
Im pretty sure that's a genuine honda manifold. I've done a half dozen knockoff manifold conversions and something about your manifold looks different, that and the knockoff weld really well. Good job on getting a weld in the runners, thats a tight spot.
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Day 4:
Got about a half a day in the garage today. I focused on the downpipe and was able to get it finished. https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...35b076edf6.jpg You'll notice the downpipe terminates in a lovely 3 to 2.5" reducer, this will get cut off when I get around to fabbing up the rest of the 3" exhaust. https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...96956df1b8.jpg First time welding stainless, made pretty puddles but it's no roll of quarters...... more like a pocket full of change. https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...48606e30bd.jpg So I warped the flange....should have had it bolted to something. Belt sander got it close but I can still see light through the flange connection with a flashlight shining on the inside. I know you don't use a gasket between the manifold and turbo, can I get away with a steel shim gasket here? I didn't run a feeler gauge in it but it's ~.005" looking at it. May just keep at it on the belt sander and see what I can do. UPS guy dropped off the last of major components today as well. https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...1f55ddd71b.jpg That's a rev9 intercooler, looks like one of the good ones. I'll get some up close photos of the inside to be sure. |
I would just spend more time with the sander. As annoying as it can be.
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I had the same issue with my downpipe flange...
Its amazingly hard to hold that flange flat on the sander with that big chunk of pipe working against you. If only we were smarter and welded the flange and flattened it before welding the whole downpipe on hahaha. I finished mine by hand with some sand paper glued to a flat handheld block. At 0.005" I would probably call it good enough. I'm using a metal gasket on that surface and its been fine for the past 5 track days and 5kmiles of street driving. I don't foresee any issues coming up. |
Well 3 hours later and I was able to improve it from a measured .006" to .002" it ain't getting any better. At this point I'll run the stainless shim gasket and of i have issues I'll pull it all off and find a machine shop that can mill it.
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At .002 would give it a try without the gasket. Have you cranked it on yet and warmed it up?
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No, I had thought about that...... Not sure I can get any appreciable heat in the flange with a propane torch, oxy/ accetaline setup isn't online yet
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That was my last best idea.
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Stuffed full of turkey....... so no progress today. I did get a little bit of time to start mounting the radiator yesterday after blowing 3 hrs on the belt sander with the downpipe flange. Now that I have it tacked up I started to second guess my mounting solution.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...29e28345b6.jpg Right now it's mounted solidly at the front with the bracket above, and the rear is supported with a longer piece of plate aluminum that is also rigidly mounted but allows plenty of of movement via flex. My worry is that with this solid mount any chassis movement will work to crack off these brackets most likely resulting in lots of spewing coolant. Think I'm going to go back and sandwich this bracket with a thick piece of rubber top and bottom to allow some movement. https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...025839220b.jpg The intercooler mounting position is shaping up nicely. Looks like I'll have room to route the exit path around the sway bar and vent it through the hood with the radiator air. To do this cleanly the A/C just has to go. Way too many compromises and extra work to implement it. If I do get really cranky and want air I'll probably have to come up with some custom lines that works around my ductwork. Man I'm getting old. https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...39604743a2.jpg https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...300fa10255.jpg ( The intercooler does not sit below the crossmember so I can run a splitter in the future that will help protect everything.) Originally I had planned to duct the intercooler inlet separately from the radiator so that i could dictate the balance of the air to each, but after seeing how well they lay out as they sit I might just try it first. If the IAC's are too high I may add the ducting from the intercooler to the nose that way I can bias the amount of flow, if I find that I'm running out of enough air to keep the IAC and the ECT cool enough then it's time to start cutting up the bumper to allow more air in. Really don't think this will be a problem with the optimized exit path ducting, the way I have it planned I've got my source at the highest pressure point and the outlet at the lowest point on the front half of the car. |
Spent a ton of time getting the mounts for the radiator finalized and the intercooler brackets added on top. Against my better judgement I went ahead and hung the intercooler off of the radiator. Wasn't a whole lot of options with the radiator hanging over it like it is. In the end I'm happy with how it's shaping up, very solid. I got started on the relocated filler neck since the one that came on the radiator was pointing towards the ceiling.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...7c6f3c1ccb.jpg https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...b1d8015ef2.jpg Tha'll get braced once it's welded to the radiator. |
Looking great!
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I would be really worried about solid mounting a radiator...
Why not get some rubber legs to isolate it a bit? |
I agree, the mounting ears you see are getting sandwiched between two police's of 1/4" rubber and the through holes drilled oversize to allow movement. I envision the frame ears moving up and down more than anything so I need to allow for that and just general vibration.
Got the massive 10.5" by 10.1" 17 row oil cooler mounted this morning. Extremely tight squeeze, I was really close to sending this back and going with something smaller. The reason I went with such a large cooler wasn't because I think I need the cooling capacity it's that I wanted to reduce restriction to flow to keep the pressure loss minimal. I'll actually be under ducting air flow to this cooler to start and enlarge as needed based on oil temps. In case you were wondering the exit ducting will protect it from debris coming off the tires. First I had to build a funky little bracket that got welded below the head light. https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...44c08e0a78.jpg https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...f81ad40dc8.jpg It still needs the lower mounts, which will be 1" steel straps that will attach to the bottom of the headlight bucket. https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...48c7ef19e6.jpg And here's the money shot.......that's a lot of heat exchangers. https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...2997fb9f09.jpg |
Also, have you thought about building a bolt on bar (bumper) to replace the section you cut off?
That would tie in the frame rails and reduce movement there as well. Looks like you have room to go over the radiator? D |
Originally Posted by d k
(Post 1377310)
Also, have you thought about building a bolt on bar (bumper) to replace the section you cut off?
That would tie in the frame rails and reduce movement there as well. Looks like you have room to go over the radiator? D |
I had visions of doing just that, but mostly to hold the nose piece in place. Once I got into it I realized how little metal was really up there and how the nose was primarily held on with the bolts at the fender corners and along the top. The factory plastic ducting somewhat holds the bottom in place. Honestly the metal that was cut was so flimsy I could easily twist it 90 degrees with my bare hands, the plastic 5 mph support was adding more support. You have to keep in mind the suspension points all bolt to the subframe, the only forces in the frame rails are the spring / shock mounts. So looking at end of the frame rail the spring and shock is trying to twist the rails and push them up. The section I left along the top would help to reduce twist, but honestly a strut tower brace would do way more, When I removed the fancy aluminum one on this car when I got it I couldn't tell a thing so I just never really worried about anything in front of the towers helping or hurting performance, it's just dead weight to hold the radiator, nose, and headlights up.
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On my FRS I did that and that also doubled as a mounting base for ic, oil cooler etc.
you would add rigidity for sure! |
After a nights rest I think I may have goofed on the oil cooler install. Hard to see in this picture but the fittings are on the bottom of the cooler, just no other way to mount a cooler of this size. How real is the chance of air locking the cooler and not utilizing all of it? I know the oil filter has an anti-drainback valve and my whole cooler assembly sits lower than the filter so I shouldn't have to worry about the oil draining out of the cooler every night. My initial thoughts are to pop the cooler loose and turn it on it's side to prime the oil system and it should be fine since there is no way for the oil to drain back to the engine. All of this is assuming the flow isn't enough to carry the air out of the system.
Mountain out of a mole hill? Honestly if it can't mount it as I have it then this cooler won't work. |
It's been a source of debate on the forum. if you look at "thepass's" and "hornetball's" build threads they also use your alignment on their race cars. I also have my cooler mounted identical to yours and haven't had any issues with probably 20 track days or so.
If it does bother you, I bet you could lower your top mount enough to clear the fittings. You would need to connect everything and then install everything with the lines on. |
Thanks for the input, can't really lower it without it peaking out from under the bumper. Think I'm going to roll with this setup and fix it if it's doesn't work. I would imagine I could see the temp difference with a IR temp gun if I had a sizable air pocket at the top.
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Got just a couple of hours in the garage today but was able to finish up the oil cooler mount and get started on the intercooler piping.
In an effort to keep the area in front of the motor clear for duct work I popped the intercooler piping through the outside of the frame rail right behind the headlight. One of the primary drivers of me doing the short running intake manifold was to get this piping out of the way of the ductwork. https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...0fc006189c.jpg Quite a few subtle bends needed to snake through this hole. https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...21086b398f.jpg https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...c2d02350bb.jpg https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...77d5560fba.jpg I'll need to line the hole with some cut rubber hose to make sure I don't rub a hole through the piping. I also have a bellow style coupler for the intercooler side to allow for some more movement . Back to work tomorrow so progress will be slow from now to x-mas, hope to get the rest of the heavy fab and the clutch installed around the holidays and start working on the finer details such as the wiring, programming and multitude of hoses that are needed to actually make this mess work. |
Link to the radiator? Just curious on the specs
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https://m.summitracing.com/parts/sum-380428
It's actually pretty nice, just no provisions for mounting, no fan mounts and the lower hose connection is bigger than the stock lines. |
Originally Posted by 4gordeev
(Post 1376368)
Im pretty sure that's a genuine honda manifold. I've done a half dozen knockoff manifold conversions and something about your manifold looks different, that and the knockoff weld really well. Good job on getting a weld in the runners, thats a tight spot.
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I used the exact same intercooler in my build. Seems like a pretty good piece for the price. The most I've seen in datalogs is 20-30 over ambient. However, this is on the street, autox, 1/4 mile, no idea how well it would do in a roadrace type environment
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Finally got some time back in the garage, first order of business was to finish my welding table. Piece of 1/4" steel fit the bill nicely.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...cfb893f8e5.jpg Last time I had finished up the intercooler to manifold piping, today I turned my attention to the turbo to intercooler and filter to turbo piping. I wasn't real thrilled with my clocking options on the turbo, I experiminted with clocking it with a downward outlet but it just interfered with the lower radiator hose. i could have fabricated around it but I would have had to also rework the wastegate controller as well. In the end I stuck with the strait up BEGI orientation. Like I did on the intake side I popped the piping through behind the headlight on the outside of the frame rail. I had originally intended to run the turbo to intercooler piping down under the frame rail but since I was stuck with the compromised clocking I just made room for two pipes. https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...1d5adc649f.jpg https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...40da4f6315.jpg As you can see I got into the frame rail pretty good here, I'll make a patch panel to box this in and clean up the ragged sheet metal. Overall I'm pretty happy with the routing, very strait path with as few bends as possible. I'm very happy I was able to find a way to get the air intake out from under the hood. I always cringe when I see a really well done setup, except for a filter slapped on the end of the turbo. As much time as we spend trying to get intake air temps down there is no reason to start with a 40-50 degree disadvantage. https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...f8175f44f5.jpg Spent quite a few hours gluing all this stuff together and getting a few more hard lines made for the radiator. https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...3bf2627d60.jpg I'll probably turn my attention to the ducting next, this will make or break this effort if I don't get it right. |
This is really cool, I'll be interested to see how it all turns out with the ducting and everything :) real purty.
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Nice 'glue'. Have a cat.
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Couple hours, couple odds and ends. Broke out the lathe that's been passed down through the family for 3 generations now to make this nipple that will feed the mistibishi BOV.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...f2083e30c9.jpg I used my tubing notcher to cut the contour before machining. https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...8653951433.jpg Funny how that I'm finishing up my aluminum welding I finally start getting the hang of it. This shot really shows where I started and where I finished skill wise. https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...4f3cc4f3f2.jpg Added the IAC bung as well, more of my early welds compared to my last. https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...1286c3347d.jpg All this detail stuff eats up time. |
I did the same thing with the oil cooler and ducted the openings on the chin spoiler to cool the brakes, works fine so far.
how are you planing to keep the IC from filling with little rocks, tire chuncks etc being in a horizontal position and on the bottom of the opening like that? May not be an issue but you may need some fine mesh in the mouth of the bumper to keep that stuf out |
That's a good point, I'll have to see how bad it is. I really don't like mesh, even an open sections knocks flow down 10 to 20%. Might have to put some ports in the ducting to be able to blow it out from the back side.
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Got started on the ducting, like I mentioned earlier ducting will make or break this setup. Because neither heat exchanger is pointed into the air stream I'm relying solely on pressure differential between the front and rear of the cores. Since air will always follow the path of least resistance I couldn't allow for any leakage.
I started by welding aluminum plate to the perimeter of both the radiator and intercooler which will give me a nice place to rivet the ductwork to. trying to get the ductwork to seal decently to the radiator and figuring out a mounting solution would have been a nightmare so why not attach it directly to. https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...ef916906c5.jpg Next I got busy with some flat rate templates, I must have had the nose piece on and off 20 times. https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...30ce116f71.jpg The nose ended up being much closer to the heat exchangers than I had envisioned, so flaring out the ductwork from the 23" core to the 31" nose opening was proving to be a daunting task......much easier to work in strait pieces. So I think I figured out where my brake ducting is going. https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...ecba51d829.jpg So I ended up with this mess of a template. https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...8725a1a9b6.jpg The black plastic you see is the HDPE plastic you can get from Free Shipping @ Speedway Motors, The Racing and Rodding Specialists and a few other circle track suppliers, I made door panels out of the stuff as well. At least it looks much cleaner once I got it cut out. https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...4402b88ffc.jpg Bent with a little heat from a propane torch and riveted with L brackets in a few corners. https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...7c9a193611.jpg Here it is in place with a couple of cleco's, the rest of the waviness should clean up once it's completed. https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...58f4a98762.jpg https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...8b3ff84842.jpg Hard to see in these pictures but the plastic hugs the opening in the nose quite closely, I had thought of using some kind of wetherstrip edging to seal it completly but it's snug enough I may just let it go as is. I went ahead and let the vertical dividers run to the outside of the nose to help keep the high pressure air from spilling over into what will now be the brake duct inlets. I'll get it fitted back up for a picture soon. One last photo of the water inlet and outlets now that they are in place.......they look a bit spindly but are actually quite robust. https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...9580bca36b.jpg |
Looks nice, Make sure to mount the coolers to the car in a way that they can move as they expand when they heat up to keep the from cracking.
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Yeah that came up earlier in the thread, the mounts are going to get sandwiched between rubber with over sized holes and a sleeve on the bolt.
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Your aluminum welding has improved a lot. I hope it works as good as it looks. Subscribing.
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Holidays have been busy but I've progressed the build enough for an update. I've spent quite a bit of time refining and finishing a few things. Got the O2 bung in the downpipe, cut off and rewelded the radiator front mounts to make room for the rubber isolators, added reflective insulation to the nose piece, finished up the radiator intake piping ect. ect. Small stuff just eats up the time.
I did get a good start on the exit ducting. https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...4e03387a9d.jpg Found this little jewel which I found hilarious since the corner is burnt from welding. https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...42ad70d92f.jpg Then I laid out for the ducting exit....... https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...f3f5955ce8.jpg I stared at it for a couple of days and then took the plunge. https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...01e7dc3649.jpg I hand bent the opening, not entirely happy with the radius on the long section but it isn't bad. The hood bulge prevented me from starting any further back, it would have look better with a long sweeping bend and I had another 3-4" to the head. Just figured trying to bend the bulge would end badly. https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...fc7e736328.jpg https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...12017672ec.jpg I was pretty happy with how much bracing was left underneath, this is a steel replacement hood so really this is a dry run for when I get my hands on a stock aluminum hood. https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...5ccf9192ff.jpg I still need to work out the interface between the hood opening and the HPDE ducting but overall it's looks like it'll work out well. |
Welded up the side panels and added the aero latches.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...cfb87f7a88.jpg https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...4e7e0b4d6b.jpg Going to need a wee bit of Bondo work to look nice. |
Originally Posted by Bronson M
(Post 1376187)
To better communicate my vision:
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...f53e114aa4.jpg Option 2: https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...9879fd19fa.jpg https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...adae316c32.jpg Great Thread EDIT: How have you decided to duct the outlet of the FMIC? |
From a pure cooling aspect your plans will probably work just fine. One of the other big benefits to ducting all the cooling air out the hood is a substantial reduction in lift on the front end.
If you look close you can see a 2" gap been the sway bar and the back wall of my ductwork, this is where the intercooler flow will rejoin the radiator flow. |
Thanks. I see. Lift was pointed out to me when I was going to simply let the IC outlet go directly down at the front of the car. That is why I plan to bring it back above the under tray. That way I don't gain like you will, but I shouldn't go the other way, either.
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Well the exit path will be down the trans tunnel not sure in front of the crossmember or behind will make a ton of difference. I mean it's all conjecture on my part, heck all this work to duct the air out the hood might result in 20 lb. of lift reduction and cool no better. There does seem to be plenty of data points that simply popping a hole in the hood improves cooling so reason would dictate this approach would be closer to ideal.
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Devil is in the details as they say.........
Wiring....... Yeah a lot of that to do, going to repurpose all the emissions junk wiring to pick up oil temp, oil pressure, sequential ignition and fuel pressure. https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...3d51fc5877.jpg As long as the no name coils aren't junk I'm going to be 45$ into this COP conversion. https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...d2905db67f.jpg There was a nice flat spot on the fuel rail to drill and tap for a pressure sensor. It's at the end of the rail near the pulsation damper so it should be the lowest pressure point in the system. https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...f42909a5ac.jpg |
Life has been getting in the way lately, I was able to finish up my under hood wiring. I repurposed wires from the EGR, VICS, and rear O2 sensor to bring back signals for all the new fun stuff such as seq. IGN., Oil temp, oil pressure, fuel pressure. I then wrapped the harness with this cool Tess brand cloth tape. Evidently is OE on a bunch of German cars. https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...66df3f934d.jpg
I then turned my attention to the valve cover and crankcase vent system which I honestly had overlooked until I stumbled onto a thread here. I started by drilling out the factory baffle hole to 5/16" and added another for good measure. I'm going to try to use the factory vent nipple but if I have issues I'll enlarge it to 1/2". I also added some stainless steel wool at the entrance to the first baffle chamber. This should give plenty of surface area for oil to cling to.https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...97dec6fc9b.jpg I ordered an eBay baffled and vented catch can but after looking at it I think I'm going to chop it up. Baffling is all wrong with the ports above the baffling, vent filter is stripped and choked in size, it's just a hot mess. I'm planning on plugging the PCV vent because the baffling is no where near as robust as the hot side vent. I was running a factory spec thermostat and it always bothered me how small the port was on it. So I ordered this high Flow motorad unit and drilled out the togler holes to allow a substantial amount of bypass flow. https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...3c18d3947f.jpg https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...9b0bf9a631.jpg https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...a0ee972840.jpg So I have a theory that goes against a lot of commonly accepted believe here. I firmly believe you can't have too much flow when running full tilt, I even believe running without a thermostat can help, but introduces a ton of issues with warm up, tunning for wild temp swings and the need to run a higher pressure radiator cap to make up for the fact that the restrictive thermostat isn't raising the pressure in the block. The compromise I'm using is this high Flow thermostat with large bypasses, I'm also running a 180 deg thermostat, but not because 195 is too hot but just the fact that at my target of 200deg the 180 will be open further than the 195. I also got started ony COP mounts and threw some paint at the valve cover. https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...1f400b7b77.jpg |
Oil and water lines are next on the agenda.
AN-6 line are a pain in the dick, ended up making one of those tapered sleeves you can buy because there is no way to cut that small braided line without it flaring out. I didn't grab a pic of the line but it's nothing fancy. Then I drilled a big honking hole in the pan. https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...e5ec0b7894.jpg https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...a47bfcbf64.jpg that's a 3/8" NPT x 5/8" hose adapter and the ID is strait through for high Flow. I then turned to the oil cooler and lines. I went with pushlock hose and fittings. There's a miss mash if brands and colors because I bought whatever was cheap. I would have rather not used 90's for flow but there was no escaping it with that cooler size. https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...c17b543711.jpg https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...8324263916.jpg I finished up the cooler ducting, the hole lines up perfectly with the fog light beazel so it actually inserts into the opening. I hit the easy button on the exit ducting and just used a splash guard to keep the tires from slinging rocks onto the cooler. I'm banking on the fact the air coming through the fog light beazel will be at a higher pressure than the wheel well.....If I have high temps I'll duct the exit somewhere with low pressure. https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...1acd0369b6.jpg https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...2481e21045.jpg Ii figured out a way to weld the HPDE sheeting, it's ugly but it works. A hot air plastic welding setup would be better but I just needed a few tacks to hold the sides in place. https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...d9edbddf3e.jpg I basically took a pice of filler rod and heated it up with a torch and then used the heat to fuse the two pieces of plastic together. It takes bending the joint backwards to break this "weld". Also depowered the rack and made a few shims to limit steering travel since I was rubbing the springs at full lock. https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...eb71bf3693.jpg https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...893fd0bfde.jpg |
Good shit. I like the zip tie hose separator. #roadkill
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HDPE
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...73e492429d.jpg
Nice work on the HDPE adaption for your cooler ducting. I'm just about to attemp something similar with this material to duct my oil cooler. I've been experimenting with shaping it with heat and in think mine will probably end up being held together using tabs folded at right angles and rivets. The photo is of one of my experiments... |
So, I saw this in another thread, that steel wool will become dust or something, and damage stuff. Maybe copper scrubbie, being more ductile, wont dust as easily.
Again, not sure if this is true, just something to look into, as it could become a larger problem. |
On the HPDE, I did something similar on the radiator ducting but for curved surfaces the welding seemed like a good option. I still have the exit ducting to do on the radiator, think I'll leave tabs every couple inches for the curved portion.
I was worried about the wool ending up where it shouldn't..The stuff I used was stainless and the wider type at that, it's almost like ribbon. I'll probably keep an eye on it for a while, thanks for the heads up. |
Originally Posted by thumpetto007
(Post 1389823)
So, I saw this in another thread, that steel wool will become dust or something, and damage stuff. Maybe copper scrubbie, being more ductile, wont dust as easily.
Again, not sure if this is true, just something to look into, as it could become a larger problem. He opened the engine up again after we freaked him out about that and found that there were small pieces of the steel wool dust that were hanging out. |
Originally Posted by ridethecliche
(Post 1389825)
Ryan G's build thread.
He opened the engine up again after we freaked him out about that and found that there were small pieces of the steel wool dust that were hanging out. I also don't like how he completely filled the cavity with it. In my mind the oil would be able to travel through the wool to the outlets, I just wanted a short section to give the oil a place to condense, it would have to turn back into a mist and travel through both chambers to get to the outlet. |
use fuel cell foam
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Been thrashing to get this thing done..... one step forward and two back. So I nicked a tube on the radiator, no big deal I've got a TIG I said......ugh. It's literally like trying to weld pop cans together while standing on your head with no room. That turned into a mighty cluster fuck that had me thinking of starting over with a new radiator at one point. In the end I found it just easiest to open up the hole slightly, fill it with JB weld and then smashing the tube around the opening to pinch the epoxy. If you're careful you can even save part of the tube to allow some flow. With this new found knowledge I picked up some quick 1 hour aluminum epoxy to keep in the tool box. I didn't take any pictures of this mess......still trying to forget. Then I found I pinched the gasket with the thermostat and got to fuck with that again, see I had thought ahead and tightened the bolts the first time when I had the trans out and the motor leaned forward, had plenty of room then, now not so much.
On to actual progress, swapped clutches to a Spec sprung 6 puck and whatever this is pressure plate, think it's a stage 3. I have 150$ in this lightly used clutch and another 100$ in a 12 lb. flywheel. Interestingly enough this clutch weighed 2 lb's more than the stock exeedy so only ended up dropping 4 lb's. All that additonal weight was in the clutch disk too, has to be in the beefy hub. https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...33f6fcd781.jpg I also made this tail shaft plug for my tranny to prevent any unwanted dripping lube while I wrestled around with it on the floor..........(insert gay joke here) https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...2f2814cc95.jpg https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...1b0229650c.jpg I went ahead and insulated the tunnel while I had the trans out, this is the lowes duct insulation everyone on here talks about. It does take some extra spray adhesive to get it to stick well but I have high hopes for it and man is it cheap. I did a little test where I put a piece on some sheet metal and put a propane torch to on it. It took over 60 seconds of direct heat before I could feel any warmth at all, by that point the aluminum foil had melted and the foam was starting to burn. Because this is designed for duct installation one of the requirements is that it be self extinguishing, this doesn't mean it's fire proof, but it does mean it will stop burning when the flame is removed from it. I can confirm this is the case, so if you start a fire under your car this won't make it any worse and without direct flame it will never burn. https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...527ef97ad5.jpg Made some changes to the wiring in the DIY BOB. https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...0698c83ca5.jpg Now onto my last problem that I hope really isn't a problem. As you can see in this video the turbo doesn't turn well or at all at idle. It's got some noticable resistance when you turn the blades by hand with the car off, nothing crazy, you can turn it with your pinky but it sure isn't free. This is a journal bearing turbo that has sat for a few years, I'm pretty sure the oil in the bearings has gummed up a bit and I'm hoping with a heat cycle or two and plenty of fresh oil flowing it'll clean itself up.......wishful thinking? I did confirm it's getting oil by popping off the drain line. Car runs like ass, but with a little blipping of the throttle to 3 grand the BOV pops and makes whooshing noises so it's moving some air in this state. <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/SVNsL5ddB3c" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> |
It's been a frustrating couple of weeks but I finally had a break through today. The turbo free'd up and now spins easily by hand once I was able to get the revs up and spin the turbo at high RPM. Got lucky there. I've also been battling a sync issue, no matter what I do I can't get the voltages on the POT's right, have no idea what's going on there but at this point it seems to have just magically fixed itself. I'll take a mystery fix at this point.
I slapped the nose on for the last time got it off the jack stands for the first time in many months and took her on her maiden voyage......and promptly broke it. Evidently I had the ports wrong on the boost controler, Saw 17 psi for a split second before I decided bring it back in and rectify the issue. Got overboost protection working now. That one shot to 17psi was enough to kill a coil, whether it was the high boost or just a fluke the coil died almost exactly as the boost spiked. Guess the 35$ ebay coils weren't so great after all. Picked up a coil, fixed the EBC and she runs much better now. It didn't take long to get the VE table trued up and was able to play around with it at 6 psi. Wow.....I knew it was going to good but it's really good. Can't wait to creep my way up to full power. So I found another problem, I was at 160 deg F water temp before I left the driveway and once I was up to speed the temps dropped to 120. Damn radiator and ducting work so well the two 1/4" holes I drilled in the thermostat pass enough water to over cool the engine. So I get to pull the thermostat housing off yet again. Oil cooler worked really well too, never moved above 80 degrees. Granted it was in the low 40's out, but this is a pretty good indicator that it'll be just fine on track. I'd like to see oil temps up to 150 degrees minumum. |
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