concealer404

iTrader: (3)

You need to down at least two cups of some lean before you attempt this.

KevinK121

Punnnnnnnnnnnnnnn, accidental perhaps?

(Rather than an enRICHing experience).

afm

iTrader: (3)

shuiend

iTrader: (24)

To big and not the V-Band outlet.

ryansmoneypit

iTrader: (6)

accidental yes, but ill take it!

Savington

iTrader: (31)

lol, no. FFs are flow matched where it matters, at low pulsewidth times. EV14s have insane variance at low pulsewidth times. The entire point of an expensive EV14 injector is linearity at low-pulse openings which allows the ECU to accurately control the injector at low-pulsewidths to improve idle, which in turn allows the max injector flow to get a lot bigger.

If the difference in flow at ~2ms (idle) is 15%, however, then the car's going to idle like **** anyway, so you may as well not bother. Buying them in bulk and flow-matching them where it matters (at low pulsewidth) is the only way to get around this variance and actually use the benefit of the expensive injector. I guess you could get super, super lucky and get a matched set at random, but you'd have to pay to have them flow-tested anyway to find that out, so meh.

If you are spending $200 on EV14s that aren't flow-matched, you should just buy Rx7 injectors instead, IMO, since you don't actually care how the car idles.

concealer404

iTrader: (3)

TIL.

But, DPE says the "unmatched will definitely be ***" setups idle great.

Secondhand experience of the 380s isn't awesome. There's someone in this thread living that right now.

x_25

My unmatched set idle like ***. Had to switch from batch to sequential just to idle reasonably. My friend's set (we bought a set of 8 and split them) idles perfectly at 14.7 and 800rpm in batch fire. I have considered buying a matched set from FF just to fix my idle.

andym

I had the flowforce 380cc injectors. I also have the KA injection 610cc injectors that Concealor404 mentioned. I am happier with the 610cc injectors on my stock engine 1.6 running sequential. Idle is honestly the same to me, if not a hair toward the flow matched 380cc injectors. But I don't know if that was due to having better resolution or being flow matched. Either way, that was the only time the 380cc injectors seemed to have any kind of lead for me and it was so slight that it was almost not worth mentioning. I had some issues with the o rings leaking on the 380s but Nigel said that that has been fixed. My main gripe with them was leaking o rings, which were fixed. Overall my tune behaved weird with them and unfortunately, my tuning skills at the time were not at a level to give that significant feedback. My skills have gotten better but that also correlated to around the time I switched to the 610s. But, without changing anything in my tune, drivability had increased by quite a large margin.

I am not saying there is no value in flow matching, there likely is but I don't see the need personally at the moment. I could very well at some point in the future buy a set of flow matched 640s from Nigel. But for now I am pretty content with the Ka 610s.

PS. On Black Friday / New Years sale, they were $180. Don't recall off hand which sale it was but they were $180.

But, to answer the original budget oriented turbo setup. FF 380s are $240 and KA 610s are $195. One gives better expandability for more boost. The other limits you to around 200 whp.

ryansmoneypit

iTrader: (6)

Buy once, cry once.

atotalpro

recommends downpipe fabrication LOL

x_25

There's a reason it says "from the local exhaust shop".

atotalpro

The reason I have an issue with this, is even though having an exhaust shop fab the down pipe is inexpensive, getting the car there with all the turbo components installed seems like a HUGE hassle. Plus, doesn't the BTP downpipe work with the 1.8 Ebay tacotaco manifolds?

WigglingWaffles

I say we just let all the kids cobble together broke and boosted setups so we can berate them at cars and coffee when their motor blows up.
or, better yet, encourage them to drift so straight-bodied NAs go up in value so we all feel slightly better about our money pits

sixshooter

iTrader: (12)

I've driven one with no downpipe or one with just a downpipe to the exhaust shop a couple of times to have things made. If you just go a short distance and you go slow it's no big deal. It's better if you have a trailer.

leboeuf

iTrader: (1)

Spoken like someone who sells matched injectors.
Nigel's data of 65 GT500 injectors indicates 2% maximum offset from the mean.

I don't have to point this out to you but for the new reader, EV14's are vastly different than RX7 injectors. I don't have data for those on hand, but I think they could be wellllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll over 2% offset from the mean at any PW.

nigelt

iTrader: (10)

FTFY

That has held mostly true. Now that I've done thousands of these things, the typical repeated variance (as in, not one random super low flowing injector, which does happen dear reader, but the in the range I regularly see) in a set of 100 injectors is 15% at 2ms. At wide open, I typically see about 6% variance. Going unmatched on such big injectors is a real roll of the dice. I see about 1 in 200-300 that are unusably out of range, which any individual is unlikely to get but would really suck if you did. Then there's idle smoothness, single cylinder leaning out in boost... etc.

With regards to whether the testing is ID-like, it's not quite at that level. I don't test a full range of values, just 2ms (idle) and static. I believe that the testing at those levels is comparable though. I just built a brand new test rig with 10x the precision, using a Miata fuel system to as accurately as possible emulate what the injectors experience in the real world. Obvious and blatent self-interest aside, I think it's well worth it to test them.

Regarding 380cc - they are good for 200whp in an NB, and 185whp in an NA. There aren't a ton of them out there in the wild yet, and I'm taking any feedback I get onboard to make them better. Right now I think they make an easy choice for someone building a naturally aspirated car, especially running E85. There's so much more knowledge out there about 640s, I think it's a wise choice for an inexperienced budget booster. In the not-too-distant future, I think the 380s will get there too. All that said, I also wouldn't recommend Speeduino or a fabbed DP to anyone who doesn't have some decent experience under their belt, so if you are doing those things then figuring out how to tune 380s should be achievable.

Savington

iTrader: (31)

Yes, at higher pulsewidths. The data I can find was actually 55 injectors, but the tests were done at 6ms. At 6ms, yes, a random batch of 55 EV14s should show roughly +/- 1% deviation.

If only a Miata idled at 6ms.

The reality is that with a ~600cc injector, idle requires more like 2ms. At 2ms, maximum deviation is more like 9%, which means that with a little poor luck, the injector in cyl#2 will flow ~20% more at idle than the injector in cyl#3. You think that might affect idle quality, just a little bit? Maybe?

History truly does repeat itself. Where have I seen this claim that it's "the same, just unmatched" before?

Ah, yes:

Does Dynamic Matching Really Matter? - Injector Dynamics






Oh, and one last thing:

I spend a lot of time learning far more about the products I use and sell than the average shop does so that I can provide tech advice and selections that are based in factual reality. In this particular case, I actually advised on the product being discussed, during its development, on this specific topic (low-PW matching), because it is important. Because my advice was followed, FF's product is the gold standard for mid-range EV injectors, as it should be - they fit well and function flawlessly, owing to Nigel's efforts in proper low-PW matching.

As such, there is nothing on the planet that infuriates me more than than having some shitheel call me a parts shill because I dare to post facts he disagrees with. For that transgression alone, you can feel free to take your opinions regarding my motives and play with them in traffic.

leboeuf

iTrader: (1)

Ehhh I am a customer of yours?
I'm just here for fun man. My apologies.
I have a bunch of kids and live near horses in NM so there probably is poo somewhere on me I suppose.

Honest question since I have zero experience with commercial fuel systems: Do OEM's match injectors?
Edit: Noticed that this will probably seem like a leading question. It's not, just curious if OEM's don't care, or if they trim each injector in the ecu, or if they actually physically group matched banks together.

nigelt

iTrader: (10)

This is true. Andrew put a lot of effort into these injectors. In addition to advising on testing at lower pulsewidths, he also recommended the fuel rail spacers to help with the alignment when installed, and I'm sure there are a bunch of other things I'm forgetting. I applied all his advice because, like, he knows what he's talking about.