FM IC kit boost creep
I doubt there's a lot of FM kits on this board, but I figured I'd repost here what I put on miata.net since FM is apparently not doing much to solve a problem they've known about for a long time. If there's any interest, I've got several fixes (most better than this) for short comings or known failure points in FM equipment where they've basically decided it's not worth fixing. (Piggy fuel rail tabs, the need to buy a "intake upgrade kit" when a $3 90* bend from home depot will do, etc)
------------------ Severe Boost Creep on New FM IC, solved? So I got the new FMII intercooler upgrade, and overall, it's nice - I'm not really getting better spool up, but the fit is a lot better, and I could swear there's more top end. Of course, part of that top end feeling is the fact I get boost creep to 14-15 psi!!! And since the piggy injectors run out of steam I quickly shot up to 13.1:1 AFR. Thankfully, nothing came apart. After playing with the "adjustable" actuator, I found the only thing that came CLOSE to keep things reasonable was my trusty MBC. Still on a cool night, I get over 14 psi and back out in a hurry. Being worried about blowing up my car, I find out FM knows about the problem, but has no suggestions. I could have tried to remount the old actuator. but what I did instead worked out: If the throw isn't long enough, shorten the lever arm. I drilled and tapped into the waste gate actuator arm: http://abefm.smugmug.com/photos/227144003-M.jpg I couldn't get my shallow (cheap) bottomed tap to start in the hole, so I started things with a pointier tap, then finished out the threads with the more bottoming tap: http://abefm.smugmug.com/photos/227144013-M.jpg The final tapped hole: http://abefm.smugmug.com/photos/227144021-M.jpg The only real real weird issue was to clear the stock actuator pin, you have to be inboard, and then the ~M6 bolt wouldn't clear the wastegate bushing. I unknowingly drilled into it: http://abefm.smugmug.com/photos/227144029-M.jpg If I had it to do over, I'd to my drilling with the arm spun fully counter clock wise. You'd have to hold it, but you wouldn't end up with the unfortunate circumstance that if the bolt somehow slips down, it would pin the wastegate shut. Anyway, I could JUST find a nut that slipped over (though a 9mm would be fine) by forcing it past the pin till the corners rounded. Using this locknut keeps the bolt from turning down. You could weld in a stud (I still might). http://abefm.smugmug.com/photos/227144033-M.jpg Keep an eye on the bolt while tightening the nut to make sure it's not turning down where it could interfere with the arm swinging/bushing. http://abefm.smugmug.com/photos/227144041-M.jpg While doing all this, I really wanted to make something adjustable, and a simple bent metal bracket with a couple holes drilled in it and another pin just like the original would not rotate and work very well, in my opinion. I *very quickly* drew up a rough idea of the concept: http://abefm.smugmug.com/photos/227148398-M.jpg http://abefm.smugmug.com/photos/227148400-M.jpg Lastly, here's the result of all my hard work. :-) http://abefm.smugmug.com/photos/227150306-L.jpg Now my boost snaps RIGHT up to 9 psi, and creeps to 10 by redline. Why I'm STILL lean is another mystery. Anyone understand this "Master Fuel" thing? P.S. Additional photos and higher resolution copies available at: http://abefm.smugmug.com/gallery/3913856 |
why not an EBC?
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or
....sell a kit with an adjustable wastegate arm or ....pretend the problem doesn't exist. |
I have the same problem with my FM kit and I can't seem to get rid of it. The Hydra was cutting fuel at anything over 6k rpm since it was hitting 14psi. I have the EBC connected, but it still seems to slowly build boost and it has that nasty spike at the end. I am actually thinking of trading in my Hydra for a MS. At least you all can help me with the MS stuff. The last couple of times I have tried calling FM for help, they have been less than helpful. This really sucks because their customer support was one of the reasons I went with their kit in the first place. :(
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that hydra with an EBC WILL manage your boost control providing everything is tuned. I'd venture to say that tuning will resolve most drivability issues - it usually the solution to mine (which I cause).
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how would an EBC help prevent creep in that particular situation though? An EBC can only "hide" pressure from the wastegate actuator. In this situation, the actuator wasnt moving enough, causing the creep. An EBC wouldnt cause more actuator movement, unless I'm missing something....
Edit: Forgot to mention nice work AbeFM. That's some good ingenuity right there. Changing the ratio of pressure to flapper door opening. Nice idea. :) |
if you run an open wastegate line and measure the peak, you can tune to that level with an EBC. if its hitting 14psi through an open line, then it ain't going to help.
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my presumption was that EBC would have a variable or reactive control where his MBC did not - yes, if the creep happens with an open line then it's a problem. But I would think that would be the case with that turbo at that boost level.
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I assume since you said "Master Fuel" you have a LINK? Or does the hydra have a zone/setting for that as well?
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Whew, I was worried I'd either have to explain myself or I missed something obvious. :-)
Originally Posted by m2cupcar
(Post 179868)
my presumption was that EBC would have a variable or reactive control where his MBC did not - yes, if the creep happens with an open line then it's a problem. But I would think that would be the case with that turbo at that boost level.
Originally Posted by JeremyB
(Post 179887)
I assume since you said "Master Fuel" you have a LINK? Or does the hydra have a zone/setting for that as well?
What I don't know is since I can't fuel my motor, if I turn up master fuel, I get more fuel in the midrange (killing my acceleration), but the top end doesn't seem any less lean. I'm at a loss. Posidon: They Hydra is a nice box, I don't think I'd get rid of it. Or, if I were you, I'd sell it to me for $500. :-) Your issue is likely the same as mine, and the way to tell is to run a hose right from the manifold* to the wastegate, bypassing the EBC entirely. If you're still getting overboosting, no computer in the world will fix it, aside from detuning the motor to the point where it won't make boost (i.e. generating only ~40 hp). You could try why I did, it seems to help a lot, really you could make something like I drew pretty easy with hand tools. The "correct" answer is a wastegate actuator with a longer throw - which FM said they haven't figured out how to do yet. I might go to an external wastegate at some point, but I can't imagine my motor is that strong to need it. If I make an adapter like I drew, I'll make an extra for you. Once I get the distance right, it'd be easy to make a stack of them. |
Instead of using Master Fuel try just upping zones ZF400-470 and ZF500-570.
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Originally Posted by JeremyB
(Post 180024)
Instead of using Master Fuel try just upping zones ZF400-470 and ZF500-570.
MF = 10, ZF560=95 and MF = 25, ZF560=95 What will be the difference in actual injector cycle? I noticed when I raised MF my 3000-4000 RPMs were like 10.8 or 11.2:1, but my top end was the same old 13.4 or something ridiculous. I'm worried about popping my motor. If I could get an ACTUAL answer from FM about what injectors I have in the piggy, I'd put in something twice as big and be done with it. But I keep getting "I think they are 185" or "IIRC 300-something". I did a really simply flow test next to my buddie's "265 cc" vovle green tops, and they seemed identical, except the volvo ones made a mist and the FM ones were four tight streams. |
simply too much HP for 265cc injectors!!!!
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there's no model number on the injectors?
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m2cupcar, thanks for your past info on Plink and Palm. I forgot where to get that and really want to ditch the laptop for datalogs.
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Originally Posted by Ben
(Post 180034)
there's no model number on the injectors?
I also found a guy who sells injectors for $25 each. Like, ALL sorts. fuelinjectorman@aim.com Anyway, the green tops I 'upgraded' to are Bosch #0 280 150 357: 740T - B230FT green injectors - 300 cc/min (29 lbs/hr) @ 3 bar (43.5 psi) Bosch #0 280 150 357 (Volvo #133233) The ones that FM gave me - for the love of god why don't they just KNOW this, are red, number 0 280 150 945 on them, 385 above and to the right (the other side has F1SE-E5A), and in a very rough test they seem to flow the same, only the green ones are pintle and have a nice mist while the red ones are four streams. According to the web: Bosch 0 280 150 945 300 red/brown 29.4 60.0 Ford MotorSport 300 cc injectors as well. At least my homebrew flow test was accurate. So, I guess I want to get something in the 400-500 range. I don't see how my little GT28R could be outflowing 300cc on top of the maxed out stock injectors... 1990-up Miata 1.6-liter Saturated 215cc 1993-up Miata 1.8-liter Saturated 240cc Which means a total of 540 cc/cyl. My guess: They are just not working in concert right. 300 whp should be easy enough on 550s, and I doubt I'm making that kinda HP. I have heard folks say when they went from the link piggy to the hydra (staged injectors) they went from 95% duty to ~40%. I should just get the AEM and be done with it. :-) |
When you are in boost what does the inj/map % say? That will tell you what % of 100 the additional 4 injectors are operating at. I dont know a lot about the piggy and not sure what you mean when you are seeing just the two digits. Are you just looking at Z1 master fuel for the two separate tables? Are you able to go to Edit and scroll through and change the values in zf405, zf410 etc... I guess FM is really concentrating on moving huh. Hope they get back to you.
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Oh, I've been asking this for a year. They just don't care. They have great customer service, when it suits them. :-)
Well, it looks like the ones FM gave me are high impedence, and the volvo ones are peak-and-hold, so I guess I had better swap back before I bust some perfectly good injectors, not to mention cook the piggy. I liked the flow pattern better. Also, this nice site: http://www.injectorservices.com/injectflow.htm Rated the red ones at marginally higher flow (both officially 300, but they tested 314 verses 295 of there abouts, red tops for the win). All I want is for my motor to hold together till I get a real computer. Maybe the not-break-your-motor fairy will come by with some pixie-dust, and maybe a pizza. (edit) I forget, but it's high. In the 90's. And at 6-7k, that means they aren't doing anything predictable anyway. |
Ah, now I see what you were saying about only 2 digits! Had a couple of these Mad Elf beers tonight......
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i didnt realize you had auxillary injectors....i can't read very well.
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Posidon: They Hydra is a nice box, I don't think I'd get rid of it. Or, if I were you, I'd sell it to me for $500. :-) Your issue is likely the same as mine, and the way to tell is to run a hose right from the manifold* to the wastegate, bypassing the EBC entirely. If you're still getting overboosting, no computer in the world will fix it, aside from detuning the motor to the point where it won't make boost (i.e. generating only ~40 hp). You could try why I did, it seems to help a lot, really you could make something like I drew pretty easy with hand tools. The "correct" answer is a wastegate actuator with a longer throw - which FM said they haven't figured out how to do yet. I might go to an external wastegate at some point, but I can't imagine my motor is that strong to need it. If I make an adapter like I drew, I'll make an extra for you. Once I get the distance right, it'd be easy to make a stack of them. With the EBC turned on, I can't get the boost profile to max out and stay like it should. Jeremy at FM says for me to just tune the DC%/fuel map until I get the results I want. Apparently this cannot be done 'offline' and has to be tuned while driving. Since I can't look at my laptop and drive at the same time, I am having difficulties figuring out what I need to adjust. Oh yeah, FM sent me a prototype wastegate to try out. Kudos for that, but the adapter didn't fit, the rod was 1/2" too short to be useful and it wouldn't have cleared their heatshield anyway. This just seems like such a painful process. It should be easier than this... |
Originally Posted by posidon42
(Post 180376)
This just seems like such a painful process. It should be easier than this...
But really, look at the can BEGI uses on their kits - see how it's like 3 times the width? That's all travel, and that's what you need. The answer FM gave me: Concider a more restrictive exhaust. I can't believe how poorly they are handling this kit. |
Consider a more restrictive exhaust!! OMG! I thought they wanted us to MAKE power, not kill it. Man this really sucks. If I had known then what I know now, I would have had all of you help me put together my own kit. There really isn't as much magic to putting on a turbo as I originally thought. Live and learn right...
So can I just buy the wastegate from BEGI and use that? |
Originally Posted by posidon42
(Post 180421)
Consider a more restrictive exhaust!! OMG! I thought they wanted us to MAKE power, not kill it. Man this really sucks. If I had known then what I know now, I would have had all of you help me put together my own kit. There really isn't as much magic to putting on a turbo as I originally thought. Live and learn right...
So can I just buy the wastegate from BEGI and use that? Don't worry about it lol, there are many of us who bough kits of any kind and quickly realized from reading this site that a diy setup would of saved us both time and money in the long run. |
Agreed, they really are a safe way to get started. You pretty much gotta pay your dues somehow.
Well, I've been playing a bit. I chucked up my bolt in a latch and knocked off the threads where the arm fits on it, it really helps it not to bind! But the weird thing: At like, 15-18 psi, the wastegate is great. It'd be pefect for a car running 20 psi of boost on a EBC. It's just totally the wrong thing for this car/kit. I don't know how BEGI's would work, they are a friendly bunch, I'm sure they'd come up with something. I've seen a number of 1-10 dollar ebay stock ones that might be fine, they would all require some bracketry. I forget to check how much boost I was geting on the way home, but I'll keep an eye on things and let you know how my set up is working out. |
BEGi uses a different wategate on their kits with a custom welded bracket....
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I recently did a WG can swap that required some new bracektry, in a quest to eliminate boost spike / droop (previously would build to 15, drop to 10 or 11). Sadly the results are not as impressive as I'd hoped. But if you wanna try it, perhaps something along these lines will allow you to fit the can of your choice: https://www.miataturbo.net/forums/sh...9&postcount=35
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I'm hoping to have a manifold built for my FMII which uses an external 35mm Watergate, but keep the turbo in the same place! Just trying to figure out the EGR port on my car. Not sure what the threads are on my 2000.
Later!
Originally Posted by AbeFM
(Post 180708)
Agreed, they really are a safe way to get started. You pretty much gotta pay your dues somehow.
Well, I've been playing a bit. I chucked up my bolt in a latch and knocked off the threads where the arm fits on it, it really helps it not to bind! But the weird thing: At like, 15-18 psi, the wastegate is great. It'd be pefect for a car running 20 psi of boost on a EBC. It's just totally the wrong thing for this car/kit. I don't know how BEGI's would work, they are a friendly bunch, I'm sure they'd come up with something. I've seen a number of 1-10 dollar ebay stock ones that might be fine, they would all require some bracketry. I forget to check how much boost I was geting on the way home, but I'll keep an eye on things and let you know how my set up is working out. |
Originally Posted by mkulak
(Post 180781)
I'm hoping to have a manifold built for my FMII which uses an external 35mm Watergate, but keep the turbo in the same place! Just trying to figure out the EGR port on my car. Not sure what the threads are on my 2000.
I was thinking of adding a wastegate to mine, external, but it's really overkill - all I need is something that actuates the internal better. If not, really, what's left of the FM kit worth keeping? The intake is just a cleaner, the IC set up is either rubber-and-adaptable (good, since it's too small, and if the turbo moves you could pick up their track further down the line) or garbage anyway. If you're doing all that, a bigger turbo might make sense - the LINK's are all crap. So, I guess I'd say I really like the turbo shield. :-) I'm just worried, it's so tight down there, that if I added a external (there's room down bottom) it'd get in the way of all the water and oil lines. I replaced mine with hard lines from a DSM - which helped a LOT (they never break/burn/etc) but then you'd have to pull the whole turbo anytime you want to get to anything down there.
Originally Posted by Joe Perez
(Post 180759)
I recently did a WG can swap that required some new bracektry, in a quest to eliminate boost spike / droop (previously would build to 15, drop to 10 or 11). Sadly the results are not as impressive as I'd hoped. But if you wanna try it, perhaps something along these lines will allow you to fit the can of your choice: https://www.miataturbo.net/forums/sh...9&postcount=35
The bigger issue is when it's cold out sometimes I get a lb or two more than I want, steady state. |
Oh, that reminds me! As I said, the can had great travel when you got enough pressure, the issue is the spring is too weak. I was thinking a helper spring would help (your pic reminded me). Just putting a washer behind the pretension adjust nut and a pusher srping between the body and that should lower the pressure this thing works at - both springs are linear so it should only effectively lower the 'k' of the main spring.
I don't see why it wouldn't work, I might just try it. It's certainly the easiest fix of all, if the spring doesn't cook and detemper. Hmmm, I'm going to go raid my parts bin.. |
Oh oh oh! Joe, where do you take your wastegate signal from? I had this same issue, if it's what I think it is.
How did you find the extra spring on the other wastegate worked? Anyway, nice set up, I like it! ------- Oh, ah, if you're spring is JUST that loose... yeah, I could see boost tailing off. I also think a bigger bleed hole in the MBC would help - I played with mine a lot when I made it to get it right. It wasn't my issue, then, it was where I took the boost signal. But that would help, then the spring shouldn't see so much pressure. |
Ok, replying to three questions...
I originally used a cheap DIY MBC. This is before I tried the helper spring. My boost was quite inconsistant from day to day- 10 PSI in the morning, 15 in the afternoon. And in general, it would build up to my set point (say, 14 for example) and then droop down to maybe 10 or 11. I hesitate to use the term spike, since that's not what it felt like. I tried a TurboXS MBC, which is what I'm using now. There was a small improvement in consistency, but not much. Then I put on the helper spring. Again, a tiny improvement. However this caused my base boost to be 9 PSI, which I judged unacceptable since my failsafe circuit on the WI system is to bypass the MBC in order to bring the boost down. The can that I just installed is a Garrett part rated for 5 PSI. Running with no helper spring but about 3/16" pretension on the rod, base boost is about 7 PSI. Again, the problem with droop improved but was not eliminated. Every step of the way, it seems like I make a minor, incremental improvement but never reach the goal of having boost go straight to a fixed point (say, 12 PSI) and stay there. The signal is coming from the stock fitting on the side of the compressor housing. That's one thing I've not tried changing. |
Joe, check the post I made at the other thread:
https://www.miataturbo.net/forums/sh...9&postcount=44 This *absolutely* worked for me. |
Update!
Remounted the OLD wastegate actuator, it's throw is 80-100% longer!! http://abefm.smugmug.com/photos/252576311_Nneo2-XL.jpg This alone almost got the boost under control.. http://abefm.smugmug.com/photos/252576399_g2LiJ-XL.jpg Another view Now, to the point http://abefm.smugmug.com/photos/252576699_dKPmg-XL.jpg View of my two-position actuator thingie Lastly, here it is on the car: http://abefm.smugmug.com/photos/252576736_oYZc8-XL.jpg This DID put some limit on the boost. It's still pretty high, but seems to be ok. Turbo needs hoging, but it's a step in the right direction. I'll have to take pics of it "opperating" soon. More pics at http://abefm.smugmug.com/gallery/430...6S/1#252576736 |
Golly, your wastegate isn't even hooked up! Problem solved.
Just kidding, of course. |
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