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Old 11-30-2007, 02:10 PM   #1
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Default FM IC kit boost creep

I doubt there's a lot of FM kits on this board, but I figured I'd repost here what I put on miata.net since FM is apparently not doing much to solve a problem they've known about for a long time. If there's any interest, I've got several fixes (most better than this) for short comings or known failure points in FM equipment where they've basically decided it's not worth fixing. (Piggy fuel rail tabs, the need to buy a "intake upgrade kit" when a $3 90* bend from home depot will do, etc)
------------------

Severe Boost Creep on New FM IC, solved?
So I got the new FMII intercooler upgrade, and overall, it's nice - I'm not really getting better spool up, but the fit is a lot better, and I could swear there's more top end.

Of course, part of that top end feeling is the fact I get boost creep to 14-15 psi!!! And since the piggy injectors run out of steam I quickly shot up to 13.1:1 AFR. Thankfully, nothing came apart.

After playing with the "adjustable" actuator, I found the only thing that came CLOSE to keep things reasonable was my trusty MBC. Still on a cool night, I get over 14 psi and back out in a hurry. Being worried about blowing up my car, I find out FM knows about the problem, but has no suggestions. I could have tried to remount the old actuator. but what I did instead worked out:

If the throw isn't long enough, shorten the lever arm. I drilled and tapped into the waste gate actuator arm:
http://abefm.smugmug.com/photos/227144003-M.jpg

I couldn't get my shallow (cheap) bottomed tap to start in the hole, so I started things with a pointier tap, then finished out the threads with the more bottoming tap:
http://abefm.smugmug.com/photos/227144013-M.jpg

The final tapped hole:
http://abefm.smugmug.com/photos/227144021-M.jpg

The only real real weird issue was to clear the stock actuator pin, you have to be inboard, and then the ~M6 bolt wouldn't clear the wastegate bushing. I unknowingly drilled into it:
http://abefm.smugmug.com/photos/227144029-M.jpg

If I had it to do over, I'd to my drilling with the arm spun fully counter clock wise. You'd have to hold it, but you wouldn't end up with the unfortunate circumstance that if the bolt somehow slips down, it would pin the wastegate shut.


Anyway, I could JUST find a nut that slipped over (though a 9mm would be fine) by forcing it past the pin till the corners rounded. Using this locknut keeps the bolt from turning down. You could weld in a stud (I still might).
http://abefm.smugmug.com/photos/227144033-M.jpg


Keep an eye on the bolt while tightening the nut to make sure it's not turning down where it could interfere with the arm swinging/bushing.
http://abefm.smugmug.com/photos/227144041-M.jpg

While doing all this, I really wanted to make something adjustable, and a simple bent metal bracket with a couple holes drilled in it and another pin just like the original would not rotate and work very well, in my opinion. I *very quickly* drew up a rough idea of the concept:
http://abefm.smugmug.com/photos/227148398-M.jpg
http://abefm.smugmug.com/photos/227148400-M.jpg

Lastly, here's the result of all my hard work. :-)
http://abefm.smugmug.com/photos/227150306-L.jpg

Now my boost snaps RIGHT up to 9 psi, and creeps to 10 by redline. Why I'm STILL lean is another mystery. Anyone understand this "Master Fuel" thing?


P.S. Additional photos and higher resolution copies available at:
http://abefm.smugmug.com/gallery/3913856
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Old 11-30-2007, 02:38 PM   #2
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why not an EBC?
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Old 11-30-2007, 02:39 PM   #3
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or
....sell a kit with an adjustable wastegate arm
or
....pretend the problem doesn't exist.
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Old 11-30-2007, 03:59 PM   #4
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I have the same problem with my FM kit and I can't seem to get rid of it. The Hydra was cutting fuel at anything over 6k rpm since it was hitting 14psi. I have the EBC connected, but it still seems to slowly build boost and it has that nasty spike at the end. I am actually thinking of trading in my Hydra for a MS. At least you all can help me with the MS stuff. The last couple of times I have tried calling FM for help, they have been less than helpful. This really sucks because their customer support was one of the reasons I went with their kit in the first place. :(
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Old 11-30-2007, 04:21 PM   #5
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that hydra with an EBC WILL manage your boost control providing everything is tuned. I'd venture to say that tuning will resolve most drivability issues - it usually the solution to mine (which I cause).
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Old 11-30-2007, 04:36 PM   #6
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how would an EBC help prevent creep in that particular situation though? An EBC can only "hide" pressure from the wastegate actuator. In this situation, the actuator wasnt moving enough, causing the creep. An EBC wouldnt cause more actuator movement, unless I'm missing something....

Edit: Forgot to mention nice work AbeFM. That's some good ingenuity right there. Changing the ratio of pressure to flapper door opening. Nice idea.
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Old 11-30-2007, 04:41 PM   #7
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if you run an open wastegate line and measure the peak, you can tune to that level with an EBC. if its hitting 14psi through an open line, then it ain't going to help.
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Old 11-30-2007, 05:03 PM   #8
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my presumption was that EBC would have a variable or reactive control where his MBC did not - yes, if the creep happens with an open line then it's a problem. But I would think that would be the case with that turbo at that boost level.
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Old 11-30-2007, 05:35 PM   #9
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I assume since you said "Master Fuel" you have a LINK? Or does the hydra have a zone/setting for that as well?
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Old 11-30-2007, 08:25 PM   #10
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Whew, I was worried I'd either have to explain myself or I missed something obvious. :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by m2cupcar View Post
my presumption was that EBC would have a variable or reactive control where his MBC did not - yes, if the creep happens with an open line then it's a problem. But I would think that would be the case with that turbo at that boost level.
The electronic boost controllers all work the same way - by allowing less air to the mechanical, pressure driven actuator. There are other systems, more integrated, but you basically never see them. In the FM/BEGI thread, follow the link to their website, and check out the wastegate can there. OMG! It must travel like 3". I didn't put in an "before" pic, but the wastegate, which is a flapper door, sort of alluded to in my CAD drawing, is only opening a crack as delivered by FM. It still hardly opens, but it's a lot better.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JeremyB View Post
I assume since you said "Master Fuel" you have a LINK? Or does the hydra have a zone/setting for that as well?
Yeah - I have a link, a link piggyback. It could be a lot worse, I get stock idle and lots of the benefits of keeping the stock ECU. No altitude compensation, and the *terrible* fuel-rail-always-falls-off issue. But if you're not shooting for the moon its ok.
What I don't know is since I can't fuel my motor, if I turn up master fuel, I get more fuel in the midrange (killing my acceleration), but the top end doesn't seem any less lean. I'm at a loss.


Posidon:
They Hydra is a nice box, I don't think I'd get rid of it. Or, if I were you, I'd sell it to me for $500. :-)
Your issue is likely the same as mine, and the way to tell is to run a hose right from the manifold* to the wastegate, bypassing the EBC entirely. If you're still getting overboosting, no computer in the world will fix it, aside from detuning the motor to the point where it won't make boost (i.e. generating only ~40 hp). You could try why I did, it seems to help a lot, really you could make something like I drew pretty easy with hand tools. The "correct" answer is a wastegate actuator with a longer throw - which FM said they haven't figured out how to do yet.

I might go to an external wastegate at some point, but I can't imagine my motor is that strong to need it. If I make an adapter like I drew, I'll make an extra for you. Once I get the distance right, it'd be easy to make a stack of them.
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Old 11-30-2007, 09:50 PM   #11
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Instead of using Master Fuel try just upping zones ZF400-470 and ZF500-570.
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Old 11-30-2007, 10:01 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeremyB View Post
Instead of using Master Fuel try just upping zones ZF400-470 and ZF500-570.
I only get two digits. :-) They are in the ballpark of 95+%, which is why I'm asking about master fuel. Basically:

MF = 10, ZF560=95
and
MF = 25, ZF560=95

What will be the difference in actual injector cycle? I noticed when I raised MF my 3000-4000 RPMs were like 10.8 or 11.2:1, but my top end was the same old 13.4 or something ridiculous. I'm worried about popping my motor. If I could get an ACTUAL answer from FM about what injectors I have in the piggy, I'd put in something twice as big and be done with it. But I keep getting "I think they are 185" or "IIRC 300-something".

I did a really simply flow test next to my buddie's "265 cc" vovle green tops, and they seemed identical, except the volvo ones made a mist and the FM ones were four tight streams.
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Old 11-30-2007, 10:04 PM   #13
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simply too much HP for 265cc injectors!!!!
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Old 11-30-2007, 10:06 PM   #14
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there's no model number on the injectors?
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Old 11-30-2007, 10:11 PM   #15
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m2cupcar, thanks for your past info on Plink and Palm. I forgot where to get that and really want to ditch the laptop for datalogs.
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Old 11-30-2007, 10:42 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben View Post
there's no model number on the injectors?
I never knew they HAD numbers, till I really round about found the number by searching google for "vovlo green top injector cc" or something like that. And aside from seeing some guy who has 8 500cc injectors on a 750 cc drag bike (holy ****), I learned what the numbers *should* be, then looked on the car and to my surprise I found it.

I also found a guy who sells injectors for $25 each. Like, ALL sorts.
[email protected]

Anyway, the green tops I 'upgraded' to are
Bosch #0 280 150 357:
740T - B230FT green injectors - 300 cc/min (29 lbs/hr) @ 3 bar (43.5 psi) Bosch #0 280 150 357 (Volvo #133233)

The ones that FM gave me - for the love of god why don't they just KNOW this, are red, number 0 280 150 945 on them, 385 above and to the right (the other side has F1SE-E5A), and in a very rough test they seem to flow the same, only the green ones are pintle and have a nice mist while the red ones are four streams.

According to the web: Bosch 0 280 150 945 300 red/brown 29.4 60.0 Ford MotorSport
300 cc injectors as well. At least my homebrew flow test was accurate.

So, I guess I want to get something in the 400-500 range. I don't see how my little GT28R could be outflowing 300cc on top of the maxed out stock injectors...

1990-up Miata 1.6-liter Saturated 215cc
1993-up Miata 1.8-liter Saturated 240cc


Which means a total of 540 cc/cyl. My guess: They are just not working in concert right. 300 whp should be easy enough on 550s, and I doubt I'm making that kinda HP. I have heard folks say when they went from the link piggy to the hydra (staged injectors) they went from 95% duty to ~40%.

I should just get the AEM and be done with it. :-)
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Old 11-30-2007, 10:46 PM   #17
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When you are in boost what does the inj/map % say? That will tell you what % of 100 the additional 4 injectors are operating at. I dont know a lot about the piggy and not sure what you mean when you are seeing just the two digits. Are you just looking at Z1 master fuel for the two separate tables? Are you able to go to Edit and scroll through and change the values in zf405, zf410 etc... I guess FM is really concentrating on moving huh. Hope they get back to you.
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Old 11-30-2007, 10:56 PM   #18
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Oh, I've been asking this for a year. They just don't care. They have great customer service, when it suits them. :-)

Well, it looks like the ones FM gave me are high impedence, and the volvo ones are peak-and-hold, so I guess I had better swap back before I bust some perfectly good injectors, not to mention cook the piggy. I liked the flow pattern better.

Also, this nice site:
http://www.injectorservices.com/injectflow.htm

Rated the red ones at marginally higher flow (both officially 300, but they tested 314 verses 295 of there abouts, red tops for the win).

All I want is for my motor to hold together till I get a real computer. Maybe the not-break-your-motor fairy will come by with some pixie-dust, and maybe a pizza.


(edit) I forget, but it's high. In the 90's. And at 6-7k, that means they aren't doing anything predictable anyway.
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Old 11-30-2007, 11:29 PM   #19
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Ah, now I see what you were saying about only 2 digits! Had a couple of these Mad Elf beers tonight......
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Old 12-01-2007, 12:48 AM   #20
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i didnt realize you had auxillary injectors....i can't read very well.
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