The Ghettocharger Lives!
 

Finally the ghettocharger project is complete, after a few misteps along the way. These misteps lead to the installation of a built motor and a TEC-IIIR engine management system.... Hardly ghetto by anyone's definition but critical to the success of the project in its final form. The ghettocharger itself is fairly true to its name.

The ghettocharger is a SS Autochrome manifold, a chinese made T3/T4 hybrid and a cut down Ford F-150 Powerstroke intercooler. The piping was all fabricated for a song and a dance and nothing more than a junked HKS BOV and a new Tial wastegate rounds out the package. The Tial is controlled by a Greddy profec-B boost controller.

In all it shows that this crappy $175 manifold and $200 turbo can form the basis of a kit that is capable in excess of 300 RWHP. It's currently running 10 PSI of boost and as near as my butt dyno can guess, it's north of 250 RWHP.

Mark

You make me laugh. But good to hear its alive. Drink to that. :beer:

Definately makr the compressor wheel and nut with a marker to know their positions relative to each other. Then loctite that nut back on. Ive seen alot of pics on the internet of those nuts coming off and getting sucked into the intake charge.

what kind of spool do you get with the ghettocharger?

He said he starts making boost north of 4 K

Ya, it spools kind of late. Around 4500 RPM, the built motor can easily go to 8500 RPM though so it's really a wash. Below 4k RPM this turbo has nothing. At 10 PSI, I suspect I am somewhere north of 250 RWHP.

Mark

wonder what a smaller CH turbo would do (CH=chinese)

When does it hit full boost ?

Have you considered buying chinese manifolds, fixing them up and reselling them for a profit? Or do you think it would be too much work/cost compared to doing the job right in the first place?

hey mark... did you do a tear down on that turbo before you put it on? I'm curious if everything in there "looks right". After having a turbo apart it doesn't seem like they are horribly complicated to manufacture provided the assembly is correct and the c-clips are seated. I'm interested in seeing how this one holds up to the milage.

yeah he did, pics are on miata.net somewhere.

http://forum.miata.net/vb/showpost.p...8&postcount=22
http://forum.miata.net/vb/showpost.p...0&postcount=23

Im glad this turbo is working for you mark. I still wont pass judgement on this turbo until you get more miles and run more boost on it;) I wish my engine would rev to 8500....that would be nice.

Agreed, jury is still out, but the initial results look promising.

Mark

Before 5,000 RPM, I haven't data logged it yet.

Mark

What did you do to hit 8500 rpms? Upgraded valve springs or something?

Built bottom end, shim under buckets, titanium retainers, and dual springs with 70# pressure seated 180# open.

Mark

any chance you could take some pix of the trigger wheel and mag sensor on the motor?

im trying to get some ideas for when i get back to fab up the mount for the mag sensor

If you are using a chinese turbo, then why not a chinese wastegate too? Or do they not sell any on ebay? I never looked but I figure they do like everything else.

Only a million of them. Bunch of Tial and HKS copies. I've heard they work well but have no firsthand experience. Running a Turbosmart on my other car.

Frank

Actually I chose the Tial WG because a failed wastegate can blow a motor quickly where as a failed turbo might make a mess but is unlikely to blow up my motor especially when you consider the intercooler in the way of debris from the turbo. Also I paid $220 for the Tial which seemed to be very reasonable.

So I chose not to cut corners there because I have seen the results of a failed wastegate, and it's not always pretty.

To answer the other question, yes, the wastegate is still above #4. Seems to be working adequately there. While not an optimal location, it is functional.

Mark

I will get some but it's a standard RM mounting kit.

Mark

how about some pics in general of your setup, can't say I've ever seen any before and am curious.

Yeah same here.

Here are some pics, crappy camera phone pics for now.... better ones later.

How would a failed WG blow the motor? Wouldnt you have to not notice the high boost?

Is your wastegate pipe dumping or routed back to exhaust?

Not like you can't hear it opening or something. I guess it's a matter of how quick you react to a nonfunctioning EWG. There's not much to 'em. The spring either works or it doesn't. Worst case it leaks and bleeds off too much boost.

Frank

It's a dump, so in my case, it would be hard to miss. However initially I had not planned it that way. I have seen wastegates stick (bad design and actually a BEGi wastegate for that matter) and the results as motors spooled past 20 PSI. Now do I think it would happen to me... nah, but originally I was planning to route the wastegate back into the exhaust. I guess I could have saved $150 with a cheap wastegate.

Mark

I'd imagine the TEC III has some sort of overboost cut.:dunno:

Cool project, very interested to see how it holds up. Are you planning on taking it to some track days or anything like that?

The wastegate was spec'd before the engine management. I had some original ideas that were very different than the final implementation.

Mark

:jumpsonthebandwagon:

Dammit Mark,

Man, you really screwed up with that wastegate. Why can't you get it right the first time instead of changing your plans in the middle of your project?!:p

You should have gotten a chinese cylinder head.

t
they dicked me around for over 3 months on their kit so i just bought the trigger wheel from electromotive and plan to do my own mounts

Well maybe next time... I can't make everyone happy.

Mark

whole chinese cars are likely to hit our shores in the next 3 years. why dont you just mod that? huh mark?

I'm looking forward to the chinese miata knock-off. :D

I'd like a 3/4 scale miata, just like the 3/4 scale chinese choppers you see around now. hehehe

OK back to topic. It looks good mark, nice job!

Ok, here are some real numbers datalogged from a 3rd gear roll on at about 70 MPH.

5 PSI at 4500
15 PSI at 5000
20 PSI at 5300

Street tune on pump gas. Yes, you can roll into the throttle and break the Falken Azenis loose in 3rd gear (six speed tranny with 3.636 diff.)

Seems that we hit the injector limit due to the factory rail at 20 PSI and 8500 RPM with a duty cycle of 90%. This is with the 880 cc/min injectors and walbro 255 HP pump. 11.2:1 AF Ratio, texas 93 octane.

Mark

damn!

Dumb question markp. What car is this on? I remember you had a '99 back in the day.

Frank

Same '99 Miata. The one that's been rolled, battered and abused.

Mark

Reason I asked was sortof in reference to the whole "add a return fuel system to a '99+ returnless Miata".

Seems like pretty much headroom in the stock rail with bigger injectors and good EM for %90 of the people.

Frank

Damn the 880's at 20 psi with the stock fpr if you had a return would be good for 604 chp. :eek: but with a returnless system you would probably only get 580 chp how will you manage to live with so little hp

Very nice!!!

I don't think it's that much power... I expect somewhere in the mid 300's as far as power goes... My butt dyno has no idea though, I don't know how much power it takes to skate the rears in 3rd gear. I get the car back tonight, so hopefully I can do some datalogging on it. It's definately quick.

Mark

of course it isnt that much but that much is possible given good turbo flow and tuning

What are your egts and fuel pressure?

When I run 16psi on my GT3271 on race fuel I spin my 225/45/15 RS2's in 3rd gear. At 11psi on pump gas I spin 2nd gear and of course 1st gear. I would guess that at 16psi I am around 300whp and thats with a 5 speed tranny and 4.10 torsen type II in the rear. My turbo hits 16psi @ 4200rpm in 3rd gear. From 3700-4200 it goes from 7psi to 16psi in the blink of an eye.

And just to refute those people that are saying " how can a failed wg blow an engine"...I did it. It was on my 1.6L with a T3 S60. I ran 18psi on race fuel and had a failed manual boost controller...it basically caused a quick overboost to 25psi on a 4th gear run on the interstate, this blew my #3 piston into small pieces and shot the rod out of 3 places in my oil pan and one nice hole on the passenger side of the block...it was sweet.

To be honest, I don't know yet. I only have wideband data.

Mark

Ya, there is no chance to watch the boost gauge to be honest, as you're cresting 18 PSI and the car is starting to go sideways you tend to lose sight of the boost gauge in the A/C pod. It's pretty sick. It's a handful and it has a very competent suspension package under it that has been dialed in pretty well. The rear tires are really doing their best but there is only so much power they can hold. As noted before, this is a type II torsen with a 3.636 and the 6 speed transmission. If I get the chance to take it out to the track soon, I will. I think it should run 12's pretty handily.

Mark

Well... It was about 75-80 F today. It's running about 14 degrees total timing at 20 PSI boost. I will undoubtably lower the boost to about 15 PSI for the street. It is amazing how much boost you can run on pump gas with the TEC-IIIR, which reinforces my decision to pick this ECU, it is just spectacular. I do need to look at EGT's and will install the probe soon. I have 2 type K thermocouples waiting to go in.

I am not using any water or alcohol injection and the little intercooler surprised Ric with only a few degree increase in temps during a run that was datalogged.

FWIW the 6 speed in 3rd with a 3.636 is almost the same as running a 5 speed in 3rd with a 4.44 rear.

Mark

ccc- why don't you try some dot race tires at full tread? Changing to a softer compound will give you the traction you're looking for.

re: 3271 spool - Both ccc and Andy get sensational spool from 7 to 16psi compared to the older t3/t4 hybrid. Is that attributed in part to the newer design?

i ran that 12.2 @ 16psi so I know you can do better....11's:bigtu:

I honestly do think that the newer GT turbos are a lot better as far as spool is concerned. GT series compressor wheels arent really SO MUCH better than the T series compressors, but they are just more efficient. Its in the turbine section that helps the GT series. Gt turbines are more efficient, and offer a more curvacious and lightweight design that helps spool a ton. For example: A stage 3 T series turbine flows just as well but its heavier than a GT30 series turbine but the GT30 turbine will get up and go 400rpm faster and it can flow more are higher pressure ratios.

What intercooler are you using?

I think its a cut down ford powerstroke IC, mark can correct me if im wrong.

From the first post:

"cut down Ford F-150 Powerstroke intercooler."

I was gonna ask the same question, then saw it when I reread the thread.

Frank

I agree. Looking at the spool characteristics I have now vs. yours. Granted my car isn't fully tuned, but you're not running a programmable ecu either. Your spool takes off like a rocket from 7psi. I've got more displacement, larger valves and way larger ports and I see the following: onset=1800 3psi=2900 6psi=3500 9psi=3900 12psi=4300.

Are you running an external gate? I'm running an OE internal and I know it's far from ideal. I'm considering a 38mm external gate after seeing Mark's route "through" the runners for his dump pipe on the SSA header. I could bring that right back in to my down pipe. What about exhaust? Cat? Size?

Still need to tune though- I've only made two runs at 12psi. ;) - rob

Well I did finally get the car last night which means I should be able to take pictures today, I also plan to go out to spring branch, maybe see if Steph wants to run them side by side. I know Corky will think it's a hoot.

I have a cat, and I have a 2.5" exhaust from the turbo back to the FM duals. FWIW, It spools in high gear at around 4000 RPM somewhere. A little difficult to tell since 6th gear, 4000 RPM is 90 MPH and I tend to be looking for those law enforcement types.

Mark

I do have a Tial 38mm gate with a 7psi spring. It has been rock solid for about 3 years now and I love it. I never get any boost spikes, although when its super duper cold outside it will creep about 1psi on the topend. It seems that the GT series turbos spool very fast once they hit about 6psi. I can get 16psi @ 4100 in 5th gear and it spools pretty much instantly at anything over 3700 or so. I figure that when I get a Hydra I can get this little turbo to spool about 300rpm better just from tuning alone. I would guess that this particular turbo on the FE3 would spool even faster, possibly seeing full boost right arounf 4000rpm...assuming 16psi or so. My head is fully ported however so that might help a little.