How Do You Get 350BHP from a 1.6?
 

Hi,
With my current setup im running 18psi and producing 240bhp (195whp). My car is tuned rough and im sure even with just a good tune on my setup I could get an extra 30bhp out of it.

But come this winter I will be putting the car off the road again and doing a full rebuild. I considered wiseco pistons and Eagle rods with strenghtening as my main focus. Then after that I was going to invest into a better turbo than the T28 I currently have.

I would prefer a roller bearing turbo maybe something like the GT2860rs or GT2871R.

Can you get 30psi from these sorts of turbos and if so firstly would the engine take it with the said strengthening and a proper tune and if so what would be the expected (Approx BHP) or what would the max boost be?

Cue the Slateing:laugh:

:inout:

18psi and only 195whp? Are you fucking serious?

Ye totally. MS tuning over here is much harder to find and so I went to a local rally centre and they had done some MS stuff but mainly Normally aspirated. I was dissapointed to. I expected about 240whp from my setup and fell way short. Thats running MBC and not EBC as I still cant get the damn thing to work (Another story:vash:).

What should 18psi give around 240whp?

Post up your tune. Unless the car is running on 2 cylinders the map must be in the negative timing wise in boost to produce such pathetic results

This is going to sound like a NOOB thing to say but here goes.....What do you mean post up my tune? Do I need to do a log as I run the car etc?

You should have a .msq file on your computer that contains your tune. You can upload it to the site so others can look it over. I'm betting your timing map is very conservative, you can get some huge gains from a few degrees of timing advance.

http://i53.tinypic.com/zydmqq.jpg
http://i52.tinypic.com/35852j6.jpg
http://i52.tinypic.com/o0t9vk.jpg
http://i52.tinypic.com/2s7yzpw.jpg

make that 17psi sorry.

I believe 18psi wants to know what changes to your air/fuel/timing etc you've made.

Thanks.

I dont have the laptop with me. I will get it tomorrow and see if I can get the msq file then upload it.

What boost are you running psdexta to get your power?

I was making 263whp on 14psi with my t28. With 2.5" exhaust....

350BHP = approx 295whp. To do that on a 1.6L, you need something like a GT2871R and run 18-20PSI.

man - THAT was the movie (j/k) - Scanners

My maps must be really bad if 14psi gives 263whp. That's almost 70whp more than me running 3-4 psi more.

At best you're seeing 15psi at redline - better boost control would help a lot. Looking at the graphs, you're either using a crap EBC or a hotside-sourced MBC. Switch to a good EBC valve/controller or a colside-sourced MBC.

Very low torque at low RPM. Like, REALLY low. 180ft.lbs at 4k is pathetic, especially for an ARtech setup. Is it an eBay T25?

11.0:1 is too rich across the board. There are sections where it's dipping down to 10.8:1. Way too rich, and the tuner should have figured this out. There's 10whp in the fuel map alone.

Post the MSQ so we can see the timing map. Assuming the turbo is chinese, there's probably about 50whp to be found in your setup between better boost control and spark/fuel tuning, but beyond that you need to switch to a genuine Garrett or Borg unit. falcon is correct - 300whp from a 1.6 is a 2871R at around 20psi on pump gas.

OP, to put in in perspective, I made 190whp on a tiny Greddy TD04 peaking at 12PSI and tapering to 10PSI at redline. Your set up as-is is leaving a lot on the table. Proper boost control and a tuner who knows what he is doing should get quite a bit of power. I found on my turbo set up, the motor liked it the best around 11.6-11.7AFR ish. With the Rotrex though, it's a different story.

Still in for hearing what turbo it is.

I'm pretty sure the first thing you need to do is perform an animal sacrifice on top of the valve cover. Something small will suffice, like a baby rabbit.

LOL:laugh:

Its a T28 Garrett of a Nissan 200sx. I have the tune and will try and get it posted up now.

Not sure if this is the tune or will work. I think it is! Let me know what you think and if it will open etc.

You've not attached anything....

It shows an attachment for me. Does this thread have it attached?
http://i53.tinypic.com/2ldajyt.jpg

I made 450+ BHP at 18 psi, lulz you're doing it wrong bro.

350bhp = ~325rwhp

got it now

and I'm not surprised you have such low power at that boost level.

9 degrees of advance FFS!

I'm certainly not familiar with your setup, but your timing map could definitely use some work.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...1&d=1310313155

Take a look at: https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...1&d=1310313155, quite a few people post their timing maps. You can look for a similar setup and get an idea where your map is conservative. Also have to take fuel into consideration, not sure how UK fuel compares to US fuel.

Fuel is 95 Ron to 98ron for super unleaded. I thought there would be scope to adjust. I'm slightly concerned that changing my settings to someone elses may imPact the reliability of my car. I know mine is running rich and I knew straight away that the guy didn't get anywhere near what it should be out if the car.

I will copy a setup of someone similar and see if there is any noticeable difference. I suppose it goes back to the original question on reliability on standard internals and making sure I don't over do the standard internals

Are you registered on Mx5Nutz.com RonnieBiggs?

Recently we were talking about tuners in different parts of the country, I think you should try and find someone that knows what they are doing.

There isnt a huge amount of specialist around darlington (maybe some in Newcastle)

There are some if you venture down towards South Yorkshire.

Well its about $1 per litre more expensive ;)

Yes I'm on nutz. I put a post on there ages ago about ms tuners in the north east. I would drive to south Yorkshire if it meant getting a good job done and going an extra 100 bhp.

Re. fuel: I looked this up a while ago...

Our UK RON is roughly equivalent to US (MON?) fuel + 4.
So - our standard is 95, equivalent to US 91.
'Super unleaded' in the UK is usually 97 or 98 and is available nearly everywhere that 95 is available. So that's like your 94 in the US.
Tesco sell 99, and there are Tesco supermarkets all over the place. So that's like 95 in the US.

Super unleaded here is currently priced at 9.1 dollars per US gallon. You've got to REALLY like cars over here, ha.

that timing map is crap

it's more like shit.

Yeah, except not where it matters (WOT+full boost). That's about what I would expect to see on pump gas with a T28.

Are you plumbed through a stock cat or something? Are you sure the dyno doesn't read low?

Your "tuner" is a hack, BTW. Never go back there.

These people are meant to be very good with the MS. Bit of a hike for you as they're in the midlands. But if you want a good job might be worth the trip.

http://baileyperformance.co.uk/

You'll find 20bhp in the tune, not 100. There are other issues in your setup, or that dyno reads low.

I've gone onto cops now and at some point I'm sure I will figure out my ebc problem so that should be working. This along with trying to improve the tables will hopefully get me some decent power increases. But if I only gain 20bhp that's still only 260bhp running 17psi on a t28 turbo. No cat fitted. Any other suggestions?

Obviously first sort tables, then ebc

Go take your money back from the tuner.. Maybe punch his face too..

What are the turbo specs? The old T28s were just 2560Rs, weren't they? Big difference between an old T28 and a more recent aftermarket GT2860RS/2871R.

What do stock Miatas make on that dyno?

those numbers do seem pretty weak... maybe some one could give a tip or 2 on smoothing things out? do you have a data log?

Subscribed.

No I don't have a data log. The turbo is just a journal bearing t28. It won't be anything good but that's about all I know. Is there anyone with a similar spec to me that could post there ignition, fuel,afr table etc. If so I will copy them details have a run and see what it's like.

On another issue. Why do people put a newer head on like a 99 head? Larger valves or something like that?

Far better inlet port shape, this means much better flow and more power for the same boost level, or the same amount of power at lower boost.

But it's a 1.8 modification, the 1.6 heads MK1 -> MK2 are the same port wise IIRC.

Darlington to yorkshire.. You poms crack me up.

Not having a go, we just have a different perspective. In australia its totally normal to do a trip from where I am, in newcastle, to Goulborn and back for a track day, and that trip is about the same distance as the whole way across the uk at its widest part.

Dann

Edit, actually a quick check reveals its heaps further :D

Umm yeah, but a quick Google showed me that your fuel costs at least 1/2 as much per litre..

Would you still do those journeys if the fuel cost was double?

Im on E85 with monster cams and get 6km/L..
Answer your question?

Dann

Not really, as I've no idea how much E85 costs...

Any suggestion on what sorts of ignition and fuel tables I should have as a good bench mark.

Im at a loss for words
If this map was the result of "tuning", there is something terribly wrong here.

I wonder how rich you have to be to cruise at 25 degrees of advance...


Lemme see if I can find an example of a conservative ignition basemap, so you can see how bizarre yours is.

EDIT:
Something like this, Its one of Savs's old maps
Attachment 187516

Dont even worry about the 100+kPa part, just look how youre running in vacuum. Its gotta feel horrible.

one of these:

http://www.boostedmiata.com/gallery2...1/fmtiming.jpg

http://www.boostedmiata.com/gallery2...npdefaults.jpg

Look through the DIYautotune database and find a map that's close to your setup.
Also IIRC I had a thread or two about spark tuning where some people posted their ignition tables, search around for that.

For what its worth: your timing at peak boost is pretty much the norm: 13-15* on pump gas at that pressure and size turbo is about right. Its the rest of the map looking like an epileptic seizure that we were disgusted with.
Although now that I look at it, even at peak boost your retarded tuner did basically the opposite of common sense: he bumped it up at peak pressure and dumbed it down up top. Normally you want to run a little less ignition on boost onset and peak and taper up towards redline where there's lower chances of det.
So smoothing it out probably wont gain you the power you're lacking, just improve how the car runs otherwise.

As for your power loss, I'm still really puzzled at why its so bad.

I think I will make it on a greddy 15g @19-20psi . I will probably be running on borrowed time with my stock 150k mile motor though.

Some reasons you are down on power, does the dyno read low? whats the compression look like? do you still have a cat on your exhuast? did you say you have cops or still rocking the stock ignition?

Not sure on the dyno. Compression appears fine but I havent checked it. No there isnt a Cat, Cops have just been installed and where not in when the dyno run was done. Also worth noteing is the car was hitting the boost limiter at some stages.
The guy was monitoring the engine and as he tuned it he leaned it out as it was running very rich. Then he said it was pinking so he took off some timing and so on. I think all he did was get an average amount of performance from it and left the map looking all over the place instead of flowing across the graph like the above tables. It does run ok but has alittle miss fire at certain revs (That was before COPS).

There are a few differences with the maps above will they be safe to use?
I take it the entire fuel map will also need changing to match the ignition table?

I wasnt confident to do the tuning myself thats why I payed the man who robbed me. I can easily replicate the tables above but im worried I may get it running to lean and blow the engine up. I have an AFR but no knock sensor so detecting how the engine is running isnt easy.

Do yourself a favaour and either make a set of electronic detcans (easy with this kit from Maplins http://www.maplin.co.uk/super-stereo...32208&t=module)

Or just make some Detcans, a piece of copper tube, flatten one end and drill a hole through it. Put some hosepipe on the other and then run that to a set of ear defenders. If you want stereo, use a splitter to send the pipe to both ears.

Good idea.

What intercooler are you using?

Ct racing I believe. It's the size of the grill at the bottom. Approximate 350mmx 6"x2.75" ish

+1 on the det can

For now I would try taking one of the above maps and make the vacuum part of your map look like it. You may have to play with idle a little bit but I can guarantee that you will be amazed how much better the car drives while cruising and accelerating lightly.

What are your AFRs like when cruising btw?
Like I said before you cant be very lean with timing like that without it bucking and such.
With that timing map you should be able to tune for significantly better fuel economy.

If it was my car I'd just take the numbers under 100kpa and plugged them in from either of these maps.

Running autotuner from megalog on a few days worth of logs to correct your wacky fuel map would probably get you close enough for jazz.

You do have a wideband right?