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Old 01-14-2011, 01:07 PM   #1
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Default Knowledge Conversion '94-'02

About 4 years ago I built a turbo setup for my '94 with a budget of about $2500. It was great fun and I learned a lot. I sold it.

Now I have a 2002 I bought with the intention of putting a LS1 in, but that project seems to be slipping away for lack of unlimited access to a garage. I have limited access to a shop where I think I could do a turbo build, so that is plan B I guess.

My question is what is going to be different this time?

Old car:
'94, came with a torsen
Budget of $2500
DIY standalone MS1
14b on home-made log manifold
2.5" exhaust
Cheap 6-puck ebay clutch
12 lb boost, 197whp on dyno-dynamics
460cc injectors

New car:
2002, 5spd, open rear end (must put LSD in rear end, but what are the options for '02?)
Budget of $5k to $6k
No idea what ECU to use, but I want a standalone
I haven't picket a turbo yet, but as small as I can to get 240whp.
Will be buying a manifold. Building one sucked and it always cracked.
3" exhaust, last time I was here Enthusa was what I drooled for.
Full-face clutch; I hated the old one.
550cc injectors.

I spent a LOT of time here while I built my '94, but then I sort of stopped and now I'm out of touch with what has changed in the last 2 years, and I never bothered to read much on the '02 cars in the first place.

I'm going to give it another week to find a garage for the V8 swap, but if I haven't found one I will start buying turbo parts. I'll be reading here to catch up in the mean time, but where should I start? For somebody who knew so much, I feel like such a noob!

Thanks in advance!
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Old 01-14-2011, 01:50 PM   #2
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Here's my .02:
-torsen will work on the 02 just like your 94
-ms3 if you can put it together, ms2 diypnp if you cant
-2560 or 2860
-begi log or fm log. both are similar priced and both are very reliable
-tons of options but if you can weld I'd do it myself
-fm happy meal or act hdss
-tons of options

Sounds like you're aiming for a VERY basic and simple setup and that's a good thing.
It should be very easy to piece together and run trouble free.
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Old 01-14-2011, 02:55 PM   #3
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I would say MS3 with MS3x. It will have VVT support sometime in the next few months. Y8s still has connectors for the ECU so Brain can build you a PNP kit.

For the cluctch go with an FM1.

GT2560 for the turbo and you will be golden.

Manifold and DP are where you now have choices. With the budget you have, no reason you have to go with FM or Begi. You can probably afford an artech or absurdflow if you want them.
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Old 01-14-2011, 02:59 PM   #4
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true that. with 5k you can probably even fit custom baller AF or Artech pieces and drool over them every day
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Old 01-14-2011, 03:34 PM   #5
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I am bored at working and waiting for some large files to copy so I have done some price estimates.

MS3 + MS3X + wiring - $558 from DiyAutoTune
LC-1 - $200 anywhere
FM1 clutch - $350 from FM
Enthuza 3" Exhaust - $300? from enthuza
Used GT2560 $500
Intercooler - $100 from ebay
Piping - $150 from ebay
Oil and Water lines from Begi or one of the other vendors on here - $200 high estimate
550cc RX-7 Injectors - $150

So far that is about $2500 and leaves you just needing a Manifold and DP and BOV. Also prices are just some quick rough estimates, can probably find better deals on a lot of the stuff.
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Old 01-14-2011, 04:23 PM   #6
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Thanks for the help, guys! I had forgotten how awesome this place is.

18psi, your car looks awesome, and quite similar to mine:

Untitled by skidude108
Here it is doing some off-roading this last summer.

I will have to read a bunch on this MS3 thing, since I don't even know what the MS3X is. Unless it's a lot harder than the MS1, I will probably plan to build my own MS, since that seemed to work pretty well for me before. This is a stupid question, but I can't go poking around since my car is currently buried in a snow bank (literally, completely buried), but where IS the ECU in this car? I didn't see it behind the seat when I looked once this summer. At least there was no bulge in the carpet like my '94 had.

Time for some reading! And maybe a new sig pic or something.
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Old 01-14-2011, 04:37 PM   #7
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ECU should be above the clutch pedal.

MS3 is the newest version of MS. It was released about a year ago and just now at a stable code base. The MS3x is an adapter board that plugs in and provides a good amount of additional features. More or less you can have sequential fuel and spark, along with built in EBC, and sometime soon VVT control. If you build you old MS1, you can build an MS3. Basically you build the MS the same, but instead of plugging in the MS1 cpu you plugs in the MS3 daughter board.
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Old 01-14-2011, 05:08 PM   #8
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Sounds reasonable. I will plan to build my own MS3 then, and I assume it fits in the stock ECU location, or somewhere close by?

I remember reading back in the day that MS1 didn't work well on the NBs, and MS2 could be made to work with a bunch of effort, but it sounds like MS3 is pretty much good-to-go.
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Old 01-14-2011, 05:11 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skidude View Post
Sounds reasonable. I will plan to build my own MS3 then, and I assume it fits in the stock ECU location, or somewhere close by?

I remember reading back in the day that MS1 didn't work well on the NBs, and MS2 could be made to work with a bunch of effort, but it sounds like MS3 is pretty much good-to-go.
Basically you have to build a different circuit to read the NB cam and crank sensors, and then a circuit to control the NB alternator. Other then that MS3 can do it all. Y8s is running it in full standalone on his 01 and it is working well. He will actually be doing some VVT testing this weekend with some alpha code that is in development.
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Old 01-14-2011, 05:16 PM   #10
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ms2extra works great for the nb and if you get the diypnp unit and build it like reverant and brain do it will replace your stock ecu in its stock location.
ms3 isn't pnp.
or at least not yet.
so you MIGHT be able to mount it in stock location but I'm not sure on that.
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Old 01-14-2011, 05:45 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
ms2extra works great for the nb and if you get the diypnp unit and build it like reverant and brain do it will replace your stock ecu in its stock location.
ms3 isn't pnp.
or at least not yet.
so you MIGHT be able to mount it in stock location but I'm not sure on that.
You can make a PNP harness for it. Y8s has pictures of his pretty one. Only reason I suggest MS3 over Ms2 is for the VVT support.
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Old 01-14-2011, 05:52 PM   #12
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shuiend is IMing me and asking me questions so he can post the answers here haha

not quite PnP since you have to wire to your COPs and boost and whatever else you need but I connectorized all the non miata harness wires:



The white connector in the middle is the 01 ECU connector.

There are several mods done to the MS3X to make it miata friendly but they're not that hard.
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Old 01-14-2011, 05:56 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
Here's my .02:
-torsen will work on the 02 just like your 94
-ms3 if you can put it together, ms2 diypnp if you cant
-2560 or 2860
-begi log or fm log. both are similar priced and both are very reliable
-tons of options but if you can weld I'd do it myself
-fm happy meal or act hdss
-tons of options

Sounds like you're aiming for a VERY basic and simple setup and that's a good thing.
It should be very easy to piece together and run trouble free.
Looks pretty good. I'd say go for the better flowing ABSURDFlow manifold or wait for TSE to come out with their ram horn.

I would do the MS3 for sure, but you might also want to look into an AEM. Everybody already has it going with VVT.
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Old 01-14-2011, 07:47 PM   #14
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I like that PnP harness, and I will buy one from you as soon as I commit to this!
Is there a place where all this MS3 info lives? Like what mods need to be made and all that fun stuff? When I built my MS1 I loved having that DIY thread about which mods to do. I know a little better now about what I'm doing but it's still been a while.

I've been searching for a comprehensive MS3 thread but I'm not finding much. I've only made it back about 3 pages in the search results for "MS3" though. I'll get there.
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Old 01-14-2011, 10:50 PM   #15
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And while I'm asking stupid questions, if I want a Torsen in my '02, what is the easiest/cheapest way to do it? Do I buy a whole used pumpkin and swap the whole thing or buy just the torsen part and add it in, or what?
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Old 01-14-2011, 11:03 PM   #16
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Just buy the torsen.
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Old 01-15-2011, 11:20 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skidude View Post
I like that PnP harness, and I will buy one from you as soon as I commit to this!
Is there a place where all this MS3 info lives? Like what mods need to be made and all that fun stuff? When I built my MS1 I loved having that DIY thread about which mods to do. I know a little better now about what I'm doing but it's still been a while.

I've been searching for a comprehensive MS3 thread but I'm not finding much. I've only made it back about 3 pages in the search results for "MS3" though. I'll get there.
That harness is the only one that exists but I can possibly make another. I have the ECU connectors and plenty of wire. The gray connectors are Deutsch connectors and just a fancy addition to allow the harness to come out of the car if I need to make changes since some of the wired items aren't normally connectorized (spark can be on the ecu connector but boost, water inj, wideband, etc aren't obviously).

Be forewarned that parts alone for my harness are like $75, but it is pretty awesome.

...

As far as comprehensive MS3 threads, there are none. I basically started mine from scratch since I had zero experience with MS1, MS2, or anything in between.

I created a huge spreadsheet that spells out every MS3X pin, every Miata ECU pin, and all of the additional I/O just to get a handle on it all. I need to add a few details on the custom mods I did but that part is pretty easy to figure out. I made it essentially the maximum input and output option so I could do lots of different stuff.
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Old 01-15-2011, 11:31 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y8s View Post
Reverant emailed me a huge spreadsheet of his own MS3+MS3X build, that spells out every MS3X pin, every Miata ECU pin, and all of the additional I/O just to get a handle on it all.
Fixed it for you.
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Old 01-15-2011, 11:43 AM   #19
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For that budget and the super easy option, I'd just buy a BegiS3 kit and have one of the guys here build you an MSPNP... be done with it. The GT2560 will be enough to get you 240whp on an '02 with even a marginal tune. Within your budget, you've got enough left to do a 3" exhaust and stuff like a full fluid swap, fuel filter, locking hardware, injectors, fuel pump, etc and a few dozen other niceties to help you achieve that "set it and forget it" car we're all looking for.
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Old 01-15-2011, 12:07 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y8s View Post
That harness is the only one that exists but I can possibly make another. I have the ECU connectors and plenty of wire.

Be forewarned that parts alone for my harness are like $75, but it is pretty awesome.

As far as comprehensive MS3 threads, there are none. I basically started mine from scratch since I had zero experience with MS1, MS2, or anything in between.
Thanks for the warning, I will keep that in mind. I'm not opposed to making it myself, either, I just had trouble finding the ECU connector last time so I eventually gave up and just wired it into the car and ended up with a horrible rat's nest under the passenger seat and I don't want that again.

As for MS3 threads, it sounds like I should start reading now if I am to have any hope of making it work. I assume the MS forum is the place for that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by samnavy View Post
For that budget and the super easy option, I'd just buy a BegiS3 kit and have one of the guys here build you an MSPNP... be done with it.
While I sort of like super easy, I prefer the DIY route. I need something to keep me entertained all winter since I didn't buy a ski pass this year (thought I'd be doing a V8 swap ALL winter, remember). The only reason I'm not building my exhaust too is because I don't have any idea how to weld, and I don't have access to a welder to learn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by levnubhin View Post
Just buy the torsen.
Ok. I will keep my eyes peeled for one of those. They're on ebay for cheap but they have to come from Japan so there must be some on this continent for sale used.

Thanks for the help guys! I learned a lot on my first build, but the most important stuff I learned was what NOT to do on this one.
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