Lemons Car: Above trunk mounted turbo
 

We are trying to think of something interesting to do to our lemons car that we wouldn't normally do to any car. One of the ideas that we thought of was doing a rear mount turbo to simplify the need for a turbo manifold and downpipe fabrication. With this I could use any turbo and the flange doesn't matter as long as the turbo is roughly the right size.

I think I can get the whole thing done for a lemons friendly $125-150 including a used vortec FMU. The exhaust leading up the turbo wouldn't count in the lemons given $500 budget except of the flange for the turbo.

A couple issues came up. The first one that came up of how to get the oil back to the pan without the need of an expensive oil pump. The solution to this is obvious and it is to elevate the turbo high enough so that there is a decent downward slope in the oil return to let gravity do the job. The second one is whether running a 10-12' oil supply line would cause a problem.

The exhaust tubing right at the turbo would much thicker and have bracing going out to the floor or the trunk in four locations making a pyramid shape.

Give me some input.

I highly doubt the oil would evacuate properly even if you sloped it a tad bit (and you can't really slope it any more than just a teeny weeny bit anyhow)

in for results lol

Sounds quite awesome. What do you mean when you say the exhaust wouldn't count for the $500?

I think it would be really cool, and definitely unique, but I can't see it lasting through an entire race without having a problem. As far as the oil feed and return, the worst part would be just at startup, but once there is oil moving through the system, it should be fine.

I say go for it, we all want to watch

Responding to 18psi's post, im envisioning the turbo at a height above the trunk, which would give it more height to slope down a oil drain. I agree with him though, it will be hard to get the entire drain line to be a downhill slope the entire way to the engine.

The turbo will be sitting probably 12-18" above the trunk. I think I can get a decent slope or decent enough that a buffer reservoir, like a larger starting diameter.

Turbo exhausting across a big-ass wing, F1 exhaust-blown-diffuser-style?

--Ian

I think it would be better to find something to pump that oil from a junkyard. This is a really rad idea for a lemons car. The distance that the turbo to manifold intake pipe has to run acts as an intercooler so no busted front mount from love taps, it also keeps the heat out of the engine bay. Are you allowed to run a second oil can in the rear that can be triggered with a switch to drip on the exhaust for James Bond smoke outs?

Edit: Could you use a fuel pump to pump the oil, you could get those for free?

I'm pretty sure it would just burn up the fuel pump to have something like that getting pumped through it. At least, I am sure enough that I wouldn't want to rely on it. The smoke screen might be frowned upon. ;)

Just a thought. Instead of going all the way to the back of the car. Why not mount the turbo above the hood or on the roof. It is Lemons after all.

People have done the above the hood before, but not above the roof. If they hadn't done the above the hood one, then that i probably the route I would go. I don't really want that right above us though. I just wouldn't be comfortable with that.

how about using a pressurized bladder (balloon) or gravity that feeds the oil to the turbo an then just let the oil drain into a can in the trunk, heck onto the track if its allowed.

That last part was a joke right? It would need to be a circulating system getting oil from the engine and getting back to the engine. Anything else would either be too expensive or just wouldn't work for more than 2 minutes.

i bet you could make it last longer.

Ever see one of these? They could run hours on a cup of oil. Yes its different, but applicable to my argument.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1323700480

Oil on track isn't a very good idea, but why must the engine and the turbo share oil system? Can't you make a silly-simple oil system with a small electric pump and an oil tank in the back of the car, circulating thru the turbo? Of course safety (as in: Leak on track) could be a problem, but I don't see it being much safer to run a line from the engine and back again...

Anyway - love the idea. Keep us posted!

I have yet to find a pump that seems to be suitable for oil, that I can rely on, and is cost effective. If you know of one, by all means please let me know. I am all ears to entertain the possibility of something else.

I agree with Torkel. Just run a second oil pan for the turbo. Easy and Done.

OK, explain a cost effective way to circulate the oil. I am all ears, but I can't see it being any cheaper. It would certainly be easier, but I don't think cheaper. I am working off about $150 here total.

have a vortech fmu that will be for sale soon, its still on the car. but i dont need it any more have a ms and walbro.

I just picked one up but thanks. The vortech and a turbo should be on their way.

Could you take a factory gear driven pump like the 7MGE Supra pump and put a belt driven gear and mount on it and weld barbs to the feeds?

I have a rear mount turbo fitted to a lotus elise, it sits below the sump so requires an electric pump for its return ( weldon ) I also have a mechanical johnson diff oil pump that I intend to use but this requires the camshafts taken out to adapt for a drive , so it will have to wait for its next rebuild
One thing I will add, is do not go cheap on the pump my return is vented to air so the pump is not sucking the turbo dry and if the pump fails the engine will push the oil out into the catch tank then overflow and starve the engine
i do have fail safes to warn me if the pump stops and a small drain from the catch tank back to the sump
I do not like your drain idea at all , will it work on an incline ie long hill ?
sadly imo a good reliable set up is going to cost money but it might save your engine

Nascar style driveshaft pump.

Who says you have "push" the oil?

Can you suck the oil with a vacuum source like the inlet of the turbo?

Since we're throwing out mostly useless suggestions:

Take another turbo and mount to the exhaust after the first turbo. Pull off the compressor and attach the shaft through some type of coupler to a vw beetle oil pump mounted to an oil reservoir. Run a pressurized oil line to the wastegate can and use a large bleeder style boost controller to control the oil pressure. Use the pressurized oil to feed both turbos. Using thinner oil and a small oil cooler are recommended.

PS good luck keeping this from blowing up within 5 minutes.

isnt that the purpose of the lemon races?...low budget and fun

I bet Robert can figure it out. He is industrious like us Corpus guys, oh wait you moved to Dallas were everyone is lame.

OK. Madness is burning in the brain of Torkel and a truly crazy idea is born. :idea: The turbo doesn't need a lot of pressure, right? Can you yank the windshield washer system from a random car at a junk yard? Connect the pump to the turbo and route the outlet back to the tank again? How hot can we expect the oil to get? The pump and tank should be able to handle fairly agressive liquids and the oil will have a length of oil hose to cool of in before it comes back to the tank. The system from the right car can hold quite a lot of fluid at least, so you can fill it up as much as needed to stay resonably cool. Or will the oil from the turbo just get too hot?

i think if you put the turbine blades in the oil juice, it can function as a pump to circuilate the oil into the oil feed. does that make sense?

It would get much too hot. Probably even if it went through an oil cooler before hand. Washer bottle isn't meant to hold up to that kind of heat, especially older junk yard ones. Big potential for disaster if it cracks.

Why not just put the engine in the trunk of the car.

I got it. Put one of those oil barrel pumps in there. Let the driver pump the handle as they go down the straights.

I have seen an experiment like this on the miata net forum. Dude blew his motor since he was running bandaids.

Most sensible answer so far.

So it wasn't because of the turbo location, but because of bandaids. The only issue with this is the oil supply and reclamation. Everything else should act close enough to the same that it won't matter much.

Why do you think there's not enough slope from above truck to oil pan?

have turbo drain into a small container, from that run a straight iron pipe back to pan...

I dont see the problem.

I do think there is enough slope and that will probably be my end result. That's what I said from the beginning, but everyone was acting like it was a horrible idea. I am just examining all options.

I have 2 options of turbos and I will let you guys know tomorrow as soon as I know which one I will be using. Lowes has a goodyear rubber hose rated for oil and high temps that is pretty cheap that I could use on both ends of the iron pipe. Now to find a super long supply line.

Why not use a separate oil supply for the turbo? Small electric oil pump (or driveshaft driven), reservoir and oil cooler mounted in the rear bumper. Looks more feasible than relying on a gravity-fed drain line running the length of the car.

All of that cost money that I don't have to be able to budget toward this. Even though I have almost all my budget left after selling all the parts I needed off the car, I still want to be able to do this for under $150.

seriously, I want to see a 6' length of iron pipe from ace hardware. thats all you need. cut whatever is in the way.

right i was referring to some one else had already figured out the oil... motor only blew because of the bandaids. Might be worth looking up.

Got an idea, why not use the PS pump as an oil pump for the turbo? Sure you'll have to run 2 lines to the rear of the vehicle but you wont have to get a new pump.

The Tilton pump will do the job. Taylor racing in Dallas. It is a diaphragm type pump. Bet Northern equipment has a diaphragm pump for $60 that would work. if the turbo is above the trunk lid and drains downward, if needed make a cooler out of a scrap IC core, put a pan under it and pump out of the pan.

The cooler is probably not needed and oil probably won't hurt the dia. If so, change the diaphragm.

Corky

Bingo. I am not sure how the tech inspection guys will view this, but just put the damned thing really high up to be sure. They allowed a giant ski-wing at BFE and that damned thing was waving in my face like a big 'How to Die via Impalement' exhibit. And it was pretty fricken cool.

If they get antsy from a flamable liquid/leaks perspective, just enclose the whole mess in a mild steel pipe.

Whatever else, the "dumping oil on the track" idea is the worst fucking one yet. This is not Spy Hunter.

That being said, it would be hilarious if someone had such a setup and managed to spin themselves into a wall when they hit their own slick on the second lap.

I am still trying to figure out what will be the best reliable and cost effective way to do this. The idea of combining it all to make one system that will last for an entire race without screwing something up and using a separate oiling system with a cheap pump that could fail at any time both make me timid about this.

The rules say that gauges to monitor necessary engine vitals are exempt, so I wonder I would think an AFR gauge would possibly covered under that. Maybe.

some friends of mine made a ghetto turboed ls1 200sx.. with a high, rear mount turbo..


it worked fine, and lasted a full season of drifting, no problems..

later fine honed until the "finished" project you see here..

http://bilder.driftfun.no/d/176463-4...9_IMG_2795.JPG


i think its a great idea for a lemons car to rear mount it :D

That dyno is epic. On a side note, how about some wiring control? lol

:2cents:

Gen2 MR2 uses an electric PS pump, right? Should be plenty of those in the junkyard. It should have plenty of lift, plus its designed to move dino based juice already. I would be surprised if the pump cost more than the fittings to install it.

That, or random PS pump bolted to PPF belt driven off the driveshaft.

Whatever you do: in4pics

I like the electric ps pump idea. Who knows, it might be cheaper than the material for a long return pipe.

We are still kicking this idea round, but the closer it gets to our Feb 11/12 race, the less likely it looks. We still have a fair amount of stuff left to do on the car before it is ready to race again.

If that's cheerio's T25, you better do something cool with it. You swooped in on it while I was driving to work :rofl:

P/S pump idea would work great, also i think alot of electric fuel pumps will work for oil.

Bilge pump from a boat.

A separate oil system would require a cooler, also. Starting to get expensive.

transmission oil cooler from junker, dirt cheap
mounted in front, but lower than turbo for gravity drain
then drain to metal reservoir on top of trunk
[may need a gate valve in the drain line to slow the oil circulation through the cooler]

use a hot water heater catch pan under the entire setup for leaks

put oil temperature sensor in reservoir to second oil temp gauge in cockpit
electric PS pump for pumping oil to the turbo

:idea:

So superchargers use their own little reservoir of oil that doesn't recirculate. Is heat the reason that turbos don't do this? If it is, how often would you need to change the oil by using a s S.C. type oil system? If it burns up slow enough you could possibly just drain and fill at fuel stops.

I think if I had a decent sized reservoir tank(2-3 quarts), the heat really wouldn't be much of an issue.

this is the reservoir I used for my air-2-water set-up; and will work with oil

http://dagostinoracing.com/index.php...ducts_id=16948

not saying to buy this, but anyone handy with welder and some scrap plate should be able to fab something usable

Seems like there is not brake on the dyno. The guy should fit an retarder on the propshaft. This way you put barely any load to the engine. The idea is quite good. I actually know a company that does more or less professional dyno services with the rear axle of a van. I think the truck axle is even better. I is a simple way to get large drums connected and spinning. Very clever.

On the other hand... I bought my dyno for little on E-bay.

it has brakes:)