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Old 09-19-2008, 11:35 PM   #21
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Your last post is a real good recipe.
But there is a HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE difference between 200whp and 250whp. A stock 1.6 will make that power just fine with that list of parts... but YOU'VE GOTTA RIDE IN ONE TO SEE HOW MUCH POWER YOU WANT.

We'll say 250whp for now.
All 94+ cars came with a 7" ring gear. Some dif's are open, some are Torsen, but both will handle the exact same amount of power. IIRC, guys run 400+whp on the 7" gear and it holds up just fine. Be patient and find a 4:1 Torsen swap... worth it.

I'll also mention a little about brakes. The stock 1.6 brakes are adequate for most guys DD... but they're tiny looking behind any aftermarket wheel. The upgrade to 94+ brakes is fairly cheap, provides a big margin of safety, and looks AWESOME behind aftermarket wheels. Grab some braided lines and Hawk Pads to complete your brake upgrade.

Rebuilding a 1.6 to handle 300whp costs the same as a 1.8. If you ever decide you want to do a 1.8 swap, your Manifold/DP won't swap over. The extra displacement means making power is that much easier... and a '99 head makes things even easier. I'd give serious consideration to sourcing a decent low-mileage 1.8 and have your very first power mod be the swap (even while still NA).

You are going to hate yourself by going with heavy rims. Miata's respond dramatically and poorly to increased unsprung weight. I've ridden in a few stock Miatas on cheap-as-hell chrome 17's and it feels like you're dragging a boat anchor and the suspension won't respond.
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Old 09-20-2008, 01:15 AM   #22
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Sam, thanks again for all your help in sorting all this out...

ok, so, i'm basing my need/want of 250 hp... on the basis of having driven a few s2k's... i believe they come stock with 240 hp at the crank... i loved the way it felt... but believe, that miata will be a better platform... cost less.. more cheaper parts... etc etc....

i know a coupla guys at a bone yard that always hook it up... they will give me a tranny for 200 and all the 1.8's i want for 700 (with all the accessories... manifolds, alternator etc....) and all the 1.6's i want for 500 however, (i did have access to a complete 1.8 earlier this month for 500, but passed on it...fucken a.... if i only knew what i know now, i would have jumped on it...)

so, while i'm saving up the funds... for this turbo project, ill have some time to source a torsen, and a proper turbo etc... and in that time if i come across a 1.8 for cheap, ill jump on it, else ill just be turboing my 1.6...

Ill be sure to keep you all up todate on the project, but as for now... she needs a coupla things in a hurry... like a roll bar... lol...

as for the heavier wheels... Since they are so cheap, i figure i can just rock them when i'm d'ding, with regular tires... and get a nice set with rcompound for track use... that way i won't be burning up the rcompound while doing my dding...
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Old 09-20-2008, 10:15 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james399 View Post
Sam, thanks again for all your help in sorting all this out...

ok, so, i'm basing my need/want of 250 hp... on the basis of having driven a few s2k's... i believe they come stock with 240 hp at the crank... i loved the way it felt... but believe, that miata will be a better platform... cost less.. more cheaper parts... etc etc....
You're still not completely understanding HOW MUCH power 250whp in a Miata is.

Sure the S2000 comes with 240bhp stock... which makes about 210whp or so... but only about 150wtq!!!
Your average 200whp Miata makes 180-190ftlbs at the wheels!!!
So, assuming equal whp, you've got a 20% torque advantage, plus the S2000 weighs 600lbs more. A 200whp Miata will crush an S2000 in a drag race.

A 250whp Miata will obliterate/destroy/wipe out/demolish/eliminate/ eradicate/annihilate a stock S2000. It's gonna be about 2seconds quicker in the 1/4mile.
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Old 09-20-2008, 09:19 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by samnavy View Post
You're still not completely understanding HOW MUCH power 250whp in a Miata is.

Sure the S2000 comes with 240bhp stock... which makes about 210whp or so... but only about 150wtq!!!
Your average 200whp Miata makes 180-190ftlbs at the wheels!!!
So, assuming equal whp, you've got a 20% torque advantage, plus the S2000 weighs 600lbs more. A 200whp Miata will crush an S2000 in a drag race.

A 250whp Miata will obliterate/destroy/wipe out/demolish/eliminate/ eradicate/annihilate a stock S2000. It's gonna be about 2seconds quicker in the 1/4mile.
you really have to stop making me smile like that... lol... yeah... i understand, i've been reading about power to weight ratios... lol.... and i have had the chance to drive some decent cars in the past... i.e. porsche carerra s, the new porsche caymen, bmw m3's, rx7's, rx8's, 94 honda hatch back drag car (low 11 sec.s) etc... my friends have been nice to let me put em through the paces too..(not the honda) (as long as i was gentle.. lol...) i've been a car guy for a long time... i do and understand and respect what power and torque can do... i also have taken a coupla weekend driving courses (allbeit in shitty cars).... but i get it man.. i do...

i've also built and ridden on quite a few crotch rockets... and when i say built, i started by going to a junkyard and pick up a straight frame.... and built those into monsters....

if you drive a fast car... you have to respect it... you also have to know what to do when you get into a sticky/sideways situation... like slamming on the brakes with all your might!! (lol... i hope you know i'm kidding about that last part).... all of the reasons you have mentioned about the torque, and hp capabilities, is what draws me to this car....

but i'm the noob, i'm not going to tell you that you are wrong... with that being said... i'm working with a guy on here... and i'm going to try a 1.8 swap, see that and feel that, and then turbo it, run low boost at first... get used to it, and turn up the boost so i can get used to the power....

at this point not having enough funds to go through the whole project from start to finish, will allow me to learn the car as she gets more and more power... lol...

but again sam, thanks for all the information... as i start building, i'm sure i will be on here reading and asking questions!!
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Old 09-21-2008, 05:52 PM   #25
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Also don't forget about suspension upgrade. I and i'm sure everyone else here would agree that you also need a new suspension with turbo. The more power you put down the more control you need over your car and with stock suspension i'm not sure i'd want to drive a 200-250hp miata... Some decent springs and shocks youre probably looking at around $500 more to whatever you're planning. The first thing i'd invest in if i were you would be a good suspension. Then add the power after that.

cheers!

-Kris
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Old 09-22-2008, 04:00 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krissetsfire View Post
Also don't forget about suspension upgrade. I and i'm sure everyone else here would agree that you also need a new suspension with turbo. The more power you put down the more control you need over your car and with stock suspension i'm not sure i'd want to drive a 200-250hp miata... Some decent springs and shocks youre probably looking at around $500 more to whatever you're planning. The first thing i'd invest in if i were you would be a good suspension. Then add the power after that.

cheers!

-Kris
thanks for the advice.... i'm on tein springs, and kybs... plan on replacing the bushings etc... but with the drop and stiffer suspension, i'm sure ill be fine for now...
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Old 09-22-2008, 07:16 AM   #27
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your sig said 1.6 stock. if you have decent shocks and springs then youre probably fine.
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Old 11-10-2008, 09:41 PM   #28
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Default ok, a little bit closer...

so... some additional questions etc... i sold a hardtop, so i had some cash.. then i cam across a 95 1.8L with under 80k miles for 500 with all the accesories... and I jumped on it, I jumped on it, humped it to death, and now I have a nice engine waiting for me... picking it up this saturday...

i picked up the 1.8 flyin miata conversion kit, and motor mounts.... will probably be here around the same time as the engine...

now, i'm still shooting for the 200 - 250 hp range..... and ill be driving her as a stock 1.8 for God knows how long while i save up for the roll bar, rear end, and turbo in that order...

First; I know I need a clutch, but what is the best value for the dollar, I'm not looking to do anything crazy, but I do plan on doing some autox, once I get the car more realiable... i also know I will not necessarily be in stock class, and I don't care about winning trophies etc... I just like to drive... I'm looking for a clutch that will take it's fair share of abuse... I like to drive hard....

second... what should i do to the engine before i pop it in...
This is my list so far...
cas o-ring
rear main seal
front mail seal
timing belt, aux belt, water pump,
(head gasket, and valve cover, I figure I can do those gaskets when a problem arises... I.E. I don't have to pull the motor like for the rear main seal...)
New spark plugs..
fresh fluids for the tranny, motor, and clutch...

let me know what I'm missing, and what I need.

edit: so far in terms of upgrades... cheap kyb shocks, tein lowering springs, heavy wheels, kumho cheap *** tires, brakes off of a 99 with hawk pads, cockpit support brace from a 95, hard top, tint, stereo, fender flares,

thanks guys!
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Old 11-11-2008, 01:37 AM   #29
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Well if you show some empathy to the rear-end it should last a while, I know everyone says a certain route. But I quess I beat to a different and mabe wronge drum. But if I had it to do over again, I would just do turbo first.

My second car is completely stock except turbo.
With tuning there may be some quirks, but the Ms tunes fairly easy and fast. And the guys here are awesome to help out.

My brother has the KYB's with bilstein springs. It is a nice setup. I'm sure their are higher dollar setups that are better. But bang for buck, they are nice.

My faster car has racing beat lowering springs and sway bars, and stock rearend. I have a 96 rearend in storage. But this one seems to be good right now.
Even 6 psi is great fun. You can always turn the boost **** up as you have the car more prepared for power.
If you wait till you have everything, you may be waiting a long time.
ASK HUSTLER!

But you can play as you improve. LOL
You can wait for sweet deals and be happy at the same time.

Just my .02 cents

Good Luck!
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Old 11-11-2008, 01:48 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Toddcod View Post
Well if you show some empathy to the rear-end it should last a while, I know everyone says a certain route. But I quess I beat to a different and mabe wronge drum. But if I had it to do over again, I would just do turbo first.

My second car is completely stock except turbo.
With tuning there may be some quirks, but the Ms tunes fairly easy and fast. And the guys here are awesome to help out.

My brother has the KYB's with bilstein springs. It is a nice setup. I'm sure their are higher dollar setups that are better. But bang for buck, they are nice.

My faster car has racing beat lowering springs and sway bars, and stock rearend. I have a 96 rearend in storage. But this one seems to be good right now.
Even 6 psi is great fun. You can always turn the boost **** up as you have the car more prepared for power.
If you wait till you have everything, you may be waiting a long time.
ASK HUSTLER!

But you can play as you improve. LOL
You can wait for sweet deals and be happy at the same time.

Just my .02 cents

Good Luck!
Hey Todd... yeah basically, i'm going along as the deals popup... and if you are looking for enough ****... deals always manage to pop up... lol...

so yeah... i'm putting in the 1.8 right now.... and as soon as i can ge to it, ill be picking up pieces here and there to get her boosted as soon as possible...

but any suggestions on what else i might do to freshen up the 1.8?

saw the thread of the clutch you picked up.... and the other photos... lol...
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Old 11-11-2008, 10:25 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by james399 View Post
Hey Todd... yeah basically, i'm going along as the deals popup... and if you are looking for enough ****... deals always manage to pop up... lol...

so yeah... i'm putting in the 1.8 right now.... and as soon as i can ge to it, ill be picking up pieces here and there to get her boosted as soon as possible...

but any suggestions on what else i might do to freshen up the 1.8?

saw the thread of the clutch you picked up.... and the other photos... lol...
I picked up a 1.8L myself. LOL

But I might not use it. Lol. I would have to get another manifold...... But time will only tell.
I am all about good deals!
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Old 11-11-2008, 10:39 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Toddcod View Post
I picked up a 1.8L myself. LOL

But I might not use it. Lol. I would have to get another manifold...... But time will only tell.
I am all about good deals!
HA HA HA HA ha.... man... if you look at my build there is no rhyme or reason... i just have a long list of things I want to do.. and if a deal too good to pass up on pops up.... it jumps to the top of the list...

this is the order i did things....
red hard top... (got it for an amazing price considering it was painted this year...)
stereo... my brother gave me one back i gave him a long time ago... lol... i had to spring 20 bucks for an antenna off of flea bay... boo...
wheels and tires... (got a really good deal on my rims... ran me less then 350 cash new in box...plus i had a flat so i figured now was a good time... lol...)
replacement leather seat skins... 380 shipped.... (new) (which i now need to sell... lol... 280 shipped if anyone is interested... repairable tear in the one i installed driver seat, can't see it when installed...)
tint... got a hook up on it.. limo all the way around...
brakes off of a 99... got complete set including hawk pads... rears have 80% left, front needs to be changed soon... but at 150? who's complaining!!)
sparco roadster seat... ( cherry... 330 shipped to my door.... doin some welding to get a bracket mounted to the floor... )
tonneau cover.. yeah i know.. (i paid a fair price for this... 200, includes all the hardware for installation but i love the old school roadster look)
engine complete with all manifolds... 1.8 under 80k miles off of a 95... 500...
(had to pay retail to flyin miata for the conversion kit... *sigh*)

it sucks being poor but after a while you get good at it...
lol...
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Old 12-26-2008, 05:23 AM   #33
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Default clutch question

Ok, so christmas came sucked me dry like a vampire in heat...

but I read somewhere that people were using the 1.6 clutches and flywheels on 1.8 engines to get light weight...

Is it possible to use like an ebay stage 3 1.6 clutch and flywheel, and safely boost to 250ish horsepower on a 1.8?? which is 300, vs. the 700 i would be spending on a 1.8 light flywheel and clutch??

or is this just an inanely stupid idea??
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Old 12-27-2008, 03:32 AM   #34
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Anyone? has anyone tried this, will this work? or is it just insane??
I'm buying parts getting to freshen my 1.8, before I swap it in...
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Old 12-27-2008, 03:51 AM   #35
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dude seriously, do some searching...and I have never heard of anyone do that before
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Old 12-27-2008, 04:15 AM   #36
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dude seriously, do some searching...and I have never heard of anyone do that before
Actually, I did quite a bit of searching, and am drawing a blank, I have read several references of people using the 1.6 clutch and flywheel to save on weight... but have yet to read a thread where the person that did it actually post....

so, in my head, a stage 3 1.6 clutch and flywheel should be able to handle the torque etc if i'm looking for the golden 250ish mark... but is cheaper than the 1.8 alternative, so if that is the case, It makes sense to save a few bucks and use the 1.6 parts on the 1.8....

So I'm asking if anyone has actually tried this....

Like I said, I try to read and learn and read some more... the information I learned here I'm following, specifically Samnavy's advice...

i.e., he recomends going in stages to learn the car etc... so, thats what i'm doing... starting with the swap, getting used, to and then moving on to boost, as time and money permit to get used to it...

I feel my question is legitimate, since you yourself state you have never heard of anyone doing it... so i'm asking if anyone has tried it....

I have no qualms admitting that I am inexperienced when it comes to boost and or miatas specifically, so I read as much as I can trying to learn as much as I can, and when it comes down to plucking down some cash... I want to make informed decisions...

so to finish the thought... these are the types of searches i've tried.

1.6 clutch 1.8
cheap clutch
turbo clutch
250 clutch
fly wheel clutch combinations

etc etc etc....

basically if someone says, "james you are being an ***, that is the most ***-backwards thing I have ever heard, that won't work because _____"
then ill be happy because i'm learning and hopefully if someone else has the same question they will stumble on to this thread and learn something...


basically everything I read, people use upgraded (ACT seems to be the prefered brand) for the appropiate application, i.e. 1.8 parts for 1.8 etc...

I have read several threads about clutchnet and shims, and all kinds of ****, but have not found an answer to my question...

so please don't assume that i don't use the search...

-thanks

edit: also, i know you can put a 1.8 clutch on a 1.6 engine to beef it up more... so why cant you work the other way but get a heavier duty 1.6 (i.e. a stage three) instead of a 1.8 (stage two) which according to the numbers it should be comprable right?

Last edited by james399; 12-27-2008 at 06:37 AM.
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Old 12-27-2008, 05:52 AM   #37
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This will work, it is a smaller clutch though so for the same type of disc and same force pressure plate, you will be able to hold less torque with a 1.6 clutch/fly compared to a 1.8.

Whether the specific clutch you are choosing will hold 250 hp, I'm not sure.
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Old 12-27-2008, 06:33 AM   #38
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according to the description of the clutch, it says that it is rated to 258 ft/lbs and 270 horses,

so theoretically it should be enough to hold a 250hp motor...

so now I have some confirmation that it will work, has anyone tried this?? so basically i'm getting a stage three 1.6 clutch and flywheel, instead of a stage 2 1.8 clutch and flywheel....

or again, am i'm going to end up hating my decision and wishing that i had gone with the standard act 1.8 clutch that everyone seems to be a fan of?

specifically i'm looking at this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...3AIT&viewitem=

edit: i did a search for reviews on xtd, they suck... don't buy.... apparently they are good, for like a thousand miles... lol...

Last edited by james399; 12-27-2008 at 07:10 AM.
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Old 12-27-2008, 09:59 AM   #39
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check out my build-thread if you want to see what a (bare minimum) reliable 250whp power-plant looks like. I still need a swirl pot, header tank, and will probably end up with a better radiator.

edit: clutches are rated at flywheel torque, so a 258wtq clutch will only hold 219wtq.

Last edited by hustler; 12-27-2008 at 10:23 AM.
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Old 12-27-2008, 10:20 AM   #40
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Amazon.com: How to Tune and Modify Engine Management Systems (Motorbooks Workshop): Jeff Hartman: Books

I'll throw this on the 'you should read this' list. Aided me hugely in tuning and understanding how megasquirt all came together.
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